How does the Reformed view defend against these scriptures?

[sdowney717]

Why would God desire all men to come to Christ, but only grants that some come to Christ.
The fact is this is the judgement of God against them since they are of Satan and not of God, those who do not believe, because they are not regenerated by God to know and be taught spiritual things of God and be saved by Christ.

Jesus said if you do not hear Him, they you are not of God, which means your of the devil.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

If you are not of God, then you will never come to Christ and you will be going to hell.

 

[Hammster]

“Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul did not preach to all of the Gentiles. Also, even if he did, not all were brought to obedience.

Glad that's cleared up.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.

I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.

Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mans free will to choose to be saved or lost. God offered his love and the opportunity to be saved to all if they choose his ways.

 

[friend of]

I agree that Calvinism (or the idea that God regenerates a person before they choose God) is wrong. It is forced love. But we know love is not forced. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will choice. It's how loving marriages work.

Thanks for this.

@Hammster

I thought you were a Calvinist tbh

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for this.

@Hammster

I thought you were a Calvinist tbh

I am.

 

[friend of]

How do you respond to Fatalism?

 

[Hammster]

How do you respond to Fatalism?

You mean when someone says Calvinism is fatalistic? I say that it's not. How do you respond to it? I mean, if nothing we do can change what God already knows what will happen, how would that not be considered fatalism?

 

[friend of]

How do you respond to it? I mean, if nothing we do can change what God already knows what will happen, how would that not be considered fatalism?

I may need to do a bit of research but passages such as

Romans 9:13-23

Are used to defend Calvinism consistenly and these are decidedly fatalistic.

 

[Hammster]

I may need to do a bit of research but passages such as

Romans 9:13-23

Are used to defend Calvinism consistenly and these are decidedly fatalistic.

Let me ask you this. Was the cross fatalistic, or was it the predetermined plan of God?

 

[friend of]

Let me ask you this. Was the cross fatalistic, or was it the predetermined plan of God?

Predetermined.

I don't see how this applies, as Romans 9:13-23 refers to created beings.

 

[Hammster]

Predetermined.

I don't see how this applies, as Romans 9:13-23 refers to created beings.

If it's the Father's sovereign choice to do with the Son as He pleases, isn't it safe to say that all of His choices are sovereign, even if we don't understand them?

 

[friend of]

If it's the Father's sovereign choice to do with the Son as He pleases, isn't it safe to say that all of His choices are sovereign, even if we don't understand them?

I suppose. But how would you reconcile Romans 9:22 with Love when it has to do with creating vessels to endure His wrath for eternity? God is love, after all, so why do such a thing?

 

[Hammster]

I suppose. But how would you reconcile Romans 9:22 with Love when it has to do with creating vessels to endure His wrath for eternity? God is love, after all, so why do such a thing?

You are, most likely, reading your theology into the text (it's hard not to). You're view is assuming that God loves everyone. As difficult as it is grasp, it's not true. Scripture is replete with examples to the contrary.

 

[sdowney717]

Predetermined.

I don't see how this applies, as Romans 9:13-23 refers to created beings.

As was the fall of man in Eden predetermined.
As were our names written in His book predetermined.
We have been predestined by God individually.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

As were our names written in the book of life of the Lamb, just as he chose us in Him from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Rev 17
And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[GingerBeer]

In poker, this would be called buying your way out of a bluff.

I do not play games of chance nor do I gamble. But if the Lexicon's definitions and the example passages failed to attract your attention - despite explicitly listing passages that use "πάντας (or one of its forms)" and translated it as "all manner of" - then you are welcome to ignore the information in it and continue discussing a language that you've admitted not knowing.

 

[friend of]

You are, most likely, reading your theology into the text (it's hard not to). You're view is assuming that God loves everyone. As difficult as it is grasp, it's not true. Scripture is replete with examples to the contrary.

Yeah, I just felt I needed to bring it up because it is kind of a hangup. It's not going to send me into a crisis of faith or anything (I don't think anything will at this point)

 

[Hammster]

I do not play games of chance nor do I gamble. But if the Lexicon's definitions and the example passages failed to attract your attention - despite explicitly listing passages that use "πάντας (or one of its forms)" and translated it as "all manner of" - then you are welcome to ignore the information in it and continue discussing a language that you've admitted not knowing.

I showed a verse which demonstrated that all meant some, but was still translated all. So I did look it up.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah, I just felt I needed to bring it up because it is kind of a hangup. It's not going to send me into a crisis of faith or anything (I don't think anything will at this point)

There are passages that are hard for me from an emotional standpoint.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for this.

Your welcome.
May God bless you.


...

 

[HenryM]

...how would you reconcile Romans 9:22 with Love when it has to do with creating vessels to endure His wrath for eternity? God is love, after all, so why do such a thing?

You assume two things, it seems. That God has only wrath towards those He destroys, and that hell is for eternal torture.

God is working His plan, and His plan is perfect. We don't understand the plan from earth, even though we get a glimpse of it. But we see that it includes the existence of unsaved people.

When God is destroying unsaved people, He is destroying them with wrath (and other complimentary attributes), but that's not necessarily the only way He relates to them. You, a human, cannot have more empathy towards people you don't like than God. I don't know how God, in totality, relates to the unsaved, but I think it's not only one complimentary group of attributes. He does destroy them, but first and foremost, He does it because it's part of His perfect plan, predetermined before the foundation of the earth, not because He hates them.

There is a line in John 13, when Jesus announces that one of the apostles is going to betray Him: "Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me." (John 13:21)

Why was Jesus troubled in spirit?

Some say it's because He is saddened that one of the apostles is going to betray Him. But this verse was right after Jesus washed the feet of all apostles, acting in ultimate non-selfcentered way. And, at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

So I don't think that Jesus was feeling sorry for Himself about being betrayed. I think Jesus was saddened because He knows that Judah is a vessel for destruction. That Judah, a man, has no say in his destiny, which is to be destroyed. Jesus knows that in a few moments satan is going to come into Judah, on mark from Jesus Himself (John 13:26-27), and take over fully, so that what's needed to be done gets done as predetermined. And I think He is saddened about it. He is saddened about predetermined destiny of Judah. (Note that when Jesus talks to Judah in John 13:27, He is in fact directly giving order to satan, who entered Judah at that moment.)

At the same time, although it saddens Jesus, who is God, Judah's destiny is part of God's pefect plan, so it's to be done.

That's how I see it.

As for hell, it takes a dedicated study to have a position on the nature of it, just like for most issues in the Bible. Based upon what I've studied so far about it, my conclusion is that hell is not eternal torture. There is torment, but it ultimately ends and unsaved person is destroyed completely. Anyway, just like other issues, it's certainly not something you can take verse here or there and conclude what it is.