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How does the Reformed view defend against these scriptures?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by friend of, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You are right that the thread has wandered a little bit, just as they all seem to do after awhile, but you are referring to my reply to what Jason0047 wrote a few posts back.

    As for your point here, yes, predestination would mean that God determines beforehand who is to receive Faith and so be saved, and who does not. You think that the Bible provides ample evidence that this is not his way, but then again, it also provides plenty of verses that seem to support the concept.
     
  2. Hämmster

    Hämmster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That's not what He's saying.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Then please enlighten the rest of us of what he is saying then.


    ...
     
  4. Hämmster

    Hämmster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I would, but my past history with you indicates that you'll just jump to another verse, and we'll never actually deal with this.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Truth should not be hidden on my account. Other people come across this site seeking for answers.

    Personally, I just don't think you have any good answers in regards to this topic. Hence, which is why you are really refusing to discuss it with me (involving Scripture).

    Then again, I would be glad to be proven wrong on this.

    May God bless you.
    And may you please be well.

    ...
     
  6. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Context matters.

    1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, (2) for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. (3) This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

    Again, context matters.

    2 Peter 3:1-9 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, (2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, (3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. (4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." (5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, (6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. (7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    Who are the "beloved"?

    Not just for the Jews, but for Gentiles also. Referring to kinds of people, not every single human being that has ever existed.

    Matthew 22:11-14 "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. (12) And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. (13) Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (14) For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Referring that we do not know the identity of the elect simply by outward appearance. Not referring to Resistable Grace.

    Matthew 10:35-38 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. (36) And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. (37) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (38) And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

    This is not defining a pre-requisite of salvation, but a product of salvation.

    Have you loved Jesus Christ perfectly more than your father or mother?
     
  7. Hämmster

    Hämmster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay.
     
  8. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Answers for questions you ask are laid out in the Bible in quite clear, even as explicit as possible, way. You either didn't read those passages, or have read them but didn't accept them. I don't think what I can write here would make a difference to your understanding.

    At the same time, all who understand predestination understand that God blinds people to see obvious. That's also something that's repeated in the Bible over and over again, and explicitly so. Even the saved are blinded to some truths, while they understand others. Everybody gets his or her part of understanding. Nobody gets it all.

    Did you repeat this Jerusalem verse couple of times recently, to make a point? I think you are not reading it as intended.

    First, there are two groups of people Jesus is talking about. There are those who are leaders of Jerusalem, and there are people who are lead by those leaders ("your children"). Leaders are not explicitly mentioned, but "your children" are, so who are the parents? Leaders of the city.

    Who, then, wouldn't allow Jesus to do what? Leaders of the city don't want their people to be saved. That's what Jesus is talking about. It's obvious, from the Bible, that God have means to achieve exactly what He wants, so if God wanted to remove leaders and save people from them, he could have sent plague to the leaders, for example. He could have done to the leaders something similar He did to Job. He didn't ask Job's permission to do what He did to him. But Jesus is not talking about waiting or wanting someone's decision, or something similar. He is giving a judgement call to the state of the mind of the leaders, who don't want to see their people saved. He is judging hearts of the leaders.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  9. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    There are enough revelations, both in the Bible and in natural world, which point to drastic change of our reality and ability on the other side. And nothing (substantially) points otherwise. At the same time, Heaven is not the subject of the Bible, but our existence here, so Bible does not describe reality of saved people in Heaven, if only in passing. The issue, then, is not one to be scripturally backed, but one can make a sound conclusion with what we've got.

    Ultimately, it's not really an issue. God is perfect, and is working perfectly, so what He will give to the saved, saved cannot even comprehend from earth. So it's all very good.
     
  10. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, I'm not claiming it's definitively one way and never the other.
     
  11. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But then doesn't it become Faith in things seen?

    Doesn't this make Faith something God does to witness to Himself?
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Hmmm. I've never seen Christ, but the Faith we're talking about here is Faith in him as God in the flesh and as my personal Lord and Savior.

    I don't think so. I'm still the one having the Faith, and I'm not God. You might be thinking of this as amounting to God being terribly vain, and that that's a very human thing that we wouldn't expect of God, the Almighty, and the creator of everything. However, I see it as more like a bond between God and Man.
     
  13. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not vain, I'm thinking it kinda removes that which gives Faith its intrinsic quality.

    In any case, thanks for your insight.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Not "wishing"??

    NKJV - 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    KJV
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 John 2:2
    2
    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

    These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.

    John 1:12

    Romans 10:
    9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Total depravity - yes
    arbitrary selection - no!
    limited atoning sacrifice - no! see 1 John 2:2 (But limited atonement - yes)
    irresistible grace - no! see John 1:11
    Perseverance of the saint - yes Romans 2:4-9 (NASB)

    I there partiality with God? arbitrary election, arbitrary selection?

    Calvinists say "yes - because if God treated everyone the same - either everyone would be lost, or everyone would be saved" -- since Calvinism rejects free will.

    Romans 2:11 " For there is no partiality with God. "
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    might be a word-game

    Noah's ark was "effective" but people "chose" not to enter it.

    In the game of "robots" making an ark and failing to program the bots to enter it - would be "ineffective". God is more then the god-of-robots, God is capable of making and sustaining "free will" EVEN in case of depravity. Calvinism stops short of that concept.
     
  17. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Robots
     
  18. Hämmster

    Hämmster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yeah, when the robot trope comes out, I know that I'm dealing with straw man arguments.
     
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