How does salvation work, precisely?

[Fish14]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Thank you

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Thank you

Your confusion is common, and it stems from trying to understand these things without first understand the nature of covenants.

 

[Steve Petersen]

There are five theories of salvation in the Christian world:

Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia

 

[Adstar]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

Because God is perfect and His eternal existence is a perfect place .. Thus no sinner is acceptable to exist in Gods perfect eternal existence.. Once imperfection enters into perfection it contaminates perfection and causes it to become imperfect...

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

Because we cannot make ourselves perfect no matter what we do.. Our sins need to be paid for by a perfect God.. A perfect sacrafice to Atone for our sins, so that God can justly forgive us and justy transform us into perfect beings worthy to enter His perfect eternal existence..

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

Not sure why you are asking this.. natural causes?? Jesus was not destined to die of natural causes He was destined to die as a sacrafice to make atonement for our sins.. Who knows maybe Jesus would have died from natural causes once His body reached a certain age.. But that is not what His mission was.. So i really don't know why you are asking this question..

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

Because it was a sacrafice covering the sins of all people through History that would believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured for them.. You cannot clean with a dirty rag.. Jesus was the unblemised lamb of God..

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Thank you

Because we do not have His rightiousness... Once we believe jesus and trust in His Atonement we are deemed to be rightious because all our sins are covered / wiped away.. We are deemed to be Holy because we are covered by the blood of Jesus..

 

[victorinus]

how does salvation work? - you have to work at it -
the bill has been paid but you have to show that you are worthy of it - showing appreciation for what has been done for you is a good start

 

[miamited]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

I suppose that because God says so isn't a satisfactory answer?

Ok, let's look at this issue from a logical position and using human logic see where each option gets us. 1. That we all are born with eternal life when we are born that can never be taken away. 2. We die.

Under the first assumption, Adolph Hitler still lives today. Idi Amin, Nero, all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are all alive and doing fine today. What would one expect the reality of life would be today?

Option 2. Everyone does at some point sin. Some more than or worse than others, but we all die at some point in this life. That means that as time marches on in this reality of life, the growth of sin is held somewhat at bay. New sinners have to start over and learn to sin. Some more than others and some worse than others.

God's plan was that mankind would always live in peace and love with one another, with their love for Him paramount in their lives and the purpose of their lives. But man couldn't do that. So to regularly cleanse the earth of sinners, we had to die. We couldn't be allowed to just live forever with our hearts of anger and hate towards one another. This is exactly how the Scriptures describe the general living conditions of Sodom and Gomorrah. Everyone was sinning greatly. Everyone was crying out for relief from the pain and agony of such life.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

I believe that what the Scriptures actually propose is that we don't die for Adam's sin, but we all inherited Adam's sin nature. We now are born with the knowledge of good and evil and we live among all the other people who now hold the knowledge of good and evil. The reason you can't pay for your own sin is that once you have your own sin, you are no longer qualified to receive righteousness on your own merit. Why? Because you're now a sinner.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

Christians die because they are sinners just like everyone else. There really is no one who can keep the law of God. There is no one who can honestly attest that they have always loved God more than anything or anyone in their life. There is no one who can honestly attest that all of their life they have loved others as God has asked. We all have moments of hate and disgust, fear and mistrust. We are all sinners. In this argument most seem to quickly dispel the notion that they have ever stolen anything or murdered anyone. Looked at another person's spouse with lustful thoughts or told a 'little white lie'. However, Jesus made it clear that the whole of the law is really about our love for our Creator and God and our love for one another.

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

A sinless animal does nothing for the remission of sin. Ultimately, it is only the blood of God's Son that will save anyone. The animal sacrifices of the old covenant was merely a foreshadow of what was eventually going to be needed. It also should have caused others to think just as you seem to be doing. This poor animal has to die because I sinned. Unfortunately, man's heart is wicked and this idea of the remorse for a poor defenseless animal didn't really take. Because of this God at one time declared through His prophet that the blood of rams and bulls was worthless before Him. What He really desired was that their hearts would turn to Him.

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Because without it we are still responsible for our sin and will be judged as still under the condemnation of our sin. If we accept Jesus' payment for our sin, then that should drive us to repentance and striving to live a life that is more like Jesus'. One of the great deceptions of some theologies is that we can live in sin, but so long as we regularly go and confess our sins to some priest, we're ok. That's really no different than what the Israelites had turned their practices into. They could sin however they wanted, but so long as they picked out their lamb and paid for it and took it to present before the priestly office to be slaughtered, everything was ok.

Yes, if our faith in Jesus is true and acceptable faith before God, we enter heaven as sinless. As the Scriptures declare, our sins are as far as the east is from the west, if we turn back to God on His terms.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[bling]

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Wages (something you earned) are contrasted with gift (something you did not earn or deserve).

Death (separation from God) is contrasted with eternal life (with God in heaven).

All mature adults sin so they have earned death (deserve to be separated from God), which hurts even while you are alive here on earth. Hurting others (sinning) burdens your conscience at least for a while and until you become harden to the point of not caring. The only true relieve for this burden is with God so it helps the nonbeliever to go to God. God is wanting to shower every human with unbelievable gifts which include eternal life, but God is not going to force these gifts on people who do not want them and the person has to humbly accept these gifts as they are given as pure charity. Sin actually helps the nonbelieving individual by being this burden and in fulfilling his/her earthly objective.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

All the “curses” Adam and Eve received and past down to us actually help us fulfill our earthly objective. Sin against God are huge and no one can “pay” God off for our sins, but God can certainly forgive those sins. The reason behind sins creating such a huge debt could be the fact they show how Holy and great God is, how great God’s Love is in forgiving those sins and to help us obtain Godly type Love in that “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so if we accept God’s charity in the form of forgiveness and thus have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt we will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

Everyone dies because physical death helps willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. We inherited “knowledge of good and evil” from Adam and Eve, but I do not read anything about our nature changing?

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

God did not need it personally (God can forgive without any sacrificing), but willing humans need Christ to go to the cross to help them fulfill their earthly objective.

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

It is not, righteousness comes through faith.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Thank you

1) Death is caused by Adam sin , when he did that whole creation got rekt and and they lost thier cover , because they were covered with light . They were created in image of God , meaning they had more dimensions than we , probably same amout of dimensions , when they sin they lost thier spirit and had only soul and body left ( 2/3 parts is 0,666 the number of man ) .

2) You simply can't pay for your sin because there is nothing that you can pay it with .
When you sin and beat dog to death , you might face huge fine or 1 year jail or something like that .
When you sin and murder human you face 40 year jail/lifetime /death row depending on situation.
When you sin against eternal God , you are eternal guilty .

My point is , seriousness of sin is depending who you commit it against .

We live in finite world , it had beginning and it will have end , even if you took every atom of this universe and made a crown from it to put on God's head , it would not be enought because as finite being , you can't pay infinite large debt made by sin . Only God can pay your debt by infinite Love which is in Christ Jesus .

3) It's because of virgin birth , seed was not corrupted because seed which impregnated Mary was not from this world , that's why he was sinless .

4) Nobody is sinless , Romans 3:23 , all sin , even telling white lie or whateverit's called is enought for eternal damnation . Animals don't sin , they die because whole creation is cursed , stars die aswell , there is entropy , everything is dying . Romans 8:19-20

5) There must be exchange between his righteousness for our wicked nature , he took all sin of world and took it on himself at cross 2 Corinthians 5:21 , can you imagine Holy God who can't even have sin such as disobedience and eating forbidden fruit , taking sin of every man ever born and that who will be born on himself , and suffering everybody eternal punishment for it on cross ? 1 Peter 2:24

There was no other way , because there is no remission of sins without sheding blood Hebrews 9:22 .
Even Jesus asked Father if there is any other way 3 times . Matthew 26:39

 

[Marvin Knox]

1. Why is the wages of sin death?

Because our sin resulted in our being barred from partaking of the tree of life in order that we would live forever.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?

Christians, like all mankind, die not because they live in a fallen world per se but because they don't have access to the tree of life.

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:22-24

We don't know that the man Jesus was immune to death. He grew older in body as the years went by and I would think that He would have eventually died physically just like the rest of us without access to the tree of life during His earthly life.

We will have access to the tree of life in our new bodies on the new earth and thus be able to live forever.

"Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." Revelation 22:1-2

Whether the incarnate Jesus will also eat of it in order for His new body to live forever, I wouldn't know for sure. But I would think so - if the tree of life is for resurrected and glorified people.

That seems to be the way God designed physical life.

Although resurrected beings will likely eat and drink in eternity - it is entirely possible that glorified men will not need the tree of life to live forever physically. It is possible that the trees of life on the new earth are meant only for a newly created group of people who will make up the nations on the new earth.

Obviously there is much mystery here and it's difficult to separate what may well be symbolic from what we could take literally.

 

[Fish14]

Your confusion is common, and it stems from trying to understand these things without first understand the nature of covenants.

How can I understand the nature of covenants?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

How can I understand the nature of covenants?

https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Coven...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YTVA5TP5N2MWH2ZEQPK8

 

[shakewell]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

Thank you

1. Why?
So that sin can't be in God's presence for eternity.
2. Why?
Because we're sinners.
3. Why?
Because He wasn't a sinner.
4. Why?
Your question doesn't make sense to me because you lump animal and person together in it.
5. Why?
Because without it we're condemned.

 

[hedrick]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

The quotation is from Rom 6:23. Paul is talking about who our master is, God or sin. His point isn’t that God damns us for any sin, no matter how small. Rather, he’s contrasting two ways of life, one as a servant of God and the other opposed to him.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

No, we don’t die because we’re guilty of Adam’s sin. That’s not quite what the Bible says, nor do theologians that I’m aware of. Rather, Adam’s sin introduced sin and death into humanity. Furthermore, neither OT nor NT says the only way out is paying for our sin. Both teach that God forgives repentant sinners.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

Jesus wasn’t immune to death from natural causes. That would cause problems for the atonement, because it would say that he isn’t like us, so his victory over death wouldn’t help us.

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

Required for what? I assume we’re talking here about eternal life. Steve posted above a reference to an article on various theories of the atonement. My understanding isn’t so much that death is required as that resurrection is required. Read Rom 6. Jesus accepted our condition, complete with death, so that he could defeat death in resurrection. Through our union with Christ, we get the same victory.

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

I agree with you.

Saying that Jesus’ righteousness has to be credited to us is a misreading of Paul. Paul says that we are justified by faith. We need to unpack that language. Justification means being held to be in good standing before God. It's less clear precisely what specific writers meant by faith, but I think Paul speaks of being a follower of Jesus as faith. Hence he says we are justified by faith. Translating: we are accepted by God because we're followers of Jesus. Through our union with Christ we have died to sin and started new life. Though that certainly doesn't mean we're perfect.

 

[Fish14]

The quotation is from Rom 6:23. Paul is talking about who our master is, God or sin. His point isn’t that God damns us for any sin, no matter how small. Rather, he’s contrasting two ways of life, one as a servant of God and the other opposed to him.

How do you know? The verse could also tell us what the penalty for sin is.

Jesus wasn’t immune to death from natural causes. That would cause problems for the atonement, because it would say that he isn’t like us, so his victory over death wouldn’t help us.

Jesus wouldn't have died if He had not taken our guilt and willingly died for our sins.

Required for what? I assume we’re talking here about eternal life. Steve posted above a reference to an article on various theories of the atonement. My understanding isn’t so much that death is required as that resurrection is required. Read Rom 6. Jesus accepted our condition, complete with death, so that he could defeat death in resurrection. Through our union with Christ, we get the same victory.

I mean why should atoning lambs should be perfect

Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, Exodus 12:5​

And therefore why Jesus had to be perfectly sinless to atone for us.

 

[hedrick]

How do you know? The verse could also tell us what the penalty for sin is.

Read the verses above. They are about which master we serve. The whole point of the metaphor about wages is that that's what a master pays.

Jesus wouldn't have died if He had not taken our guilt and willingly died for our sins.

That's speculation, for which there's no Biblical evidence. See Rom 8:3. Jesus was in the likeness of sinful flesh. Likeness because he didn't sin, but just like us.

And therefore why Jesus had to be perfectly sinless to atone for us.

Sinless doesn't mean immortal.

 

[fhansen]

I have lots of rarely asked questions about soteriology. Answers are hard to find and when I find one, it is not a complete answer.

1. Why is the wages of sin death?
"Death is such a big penalty that it scares people from sinning" There must be a better reason.

Sin by its nature separates us from Reality/Truth/Life/Love-from God, who is Reality/Truth/Life/Love. None of the rest of creation, besides men and angels, sins.

2. Why can't we pay for our sins?
"Because we have to die for Adam's sin" It would be unjust for us to inherit the original sin.

Once cut off from God we're lost; unable to find our way back; we don't even know where to look. And God deemed it wise and worthwhile that humankind should, like prodigals, spend time in the pigsty, so to speak, apart from Him, so we may hopefully gain the wisdom to reverse Adam's choice within ourselves, after coming to know the evil of that separation directly, viscerally, in this life. So that we may now, with the help of grace, finally come to choose good over evil, life over death, to choose God, the source of life, apart from Whom we can do nothing, over no God.

3. Even Christians die because they live in a fallen world. Why was Jesus immune to death from natural causes?
"His father was God so He didn't inherit a sinful nature" Sinful nature is not inherited, right? (sinful nature, not sin as in #2)

No one inherits a "sinful nature". We inherit the state of separation from God. This is a state of injustice that Adam chose, but a state he cannot live in with any kind of deep and lasting peace, security, and happiness, or the ability to refrain from or overcome sin.

4. Why is a sinless animal/person's death required?
"Sinners have to die for their own sin" This is circular reasoning, a sinner can't die for his own sin if he isn't sinless!!

That's the point; only one human was worthy to die for the rest of us, the God-man Jesus Christ. His death was an act of self-sacrificial love, love being the ultimate remedy for all the ills that beset us. This act was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. God, alone, can save man.

5. Why does Jesus' righteousness need to be credited to us?
"Because we need to be righteous to be saved" If Jesus pays the penalty for our sins, doesn't that allow us to enter Heaven as innocents?

No, His death reconciles us with God so that God may now indwell and commune with us as was always intended as the right-or just-order of things for man. And through this relationship God does a work in us, of justifying us by placing His righteousness (His Laws) in our hearts and writing them on our minds. Jer 31. He makes us innocent, and this is a work we're called to cooperate with -because only the pure of heart will/can see Him.

 

[Fish14]

Read the verses above. They are about which master we serve. The whole point of the metaphor about wages is that that's what a master pays.

That's speculation, for which there's no Biblical evidence. See Rom 8:3. Jesus was in the likeness of sinful flesh. Likeness because he didn't sin, but just like us.
Sinless doesn't mean immortal.

If there is no death penalty for sin, why does the death of Jesus matter?
What else "Jesus died for our sins" could mean than that He took that penalty from us?

 

[bling]

If there is no death penalty for sin, why does the death of Jesus matter?
What else "Jesus died for our sins" could mean than that He took that penalty from us?

You need to read my post 7 again.
Jesus died because we sinned and as an atonement sacrifice for our sins and as a ransom payment to the undeserving kidnapper which is not satan.

 

[hedrick]

If there is no death penalty for sin, why does the death of Jesus matter?
What else "Jesus died for our sins" could mean than that He took that penalty from us?

The idea that Jesus suffered our penalty is only one of several models of the atonement, and not the oldest. Many of them see the atonement as the way God transforms us, rather than something God requires before he can save us.

In Rom 6, Paul says that through our union with Christ we die to sin and rise to new life. I think it's a mistake to focus the atonement on Jesus' death. It's his resurrection that is the victory. I think he died because in order to help us he had to suffer the worst we suffer, and come through it to eternal life.

 

[Marvin Knox]

How does salvation work, precisely?

No one knows how salvation works "precisely",

Which is why Jesus told us,

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:28-30

"...there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you..." 1 Corinthians 11:19

No doubt there are many who will say to Him on that day - "Lord, Lord, did I not.........?....... and He will say to them I never knew you."