How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

DavidPT said:

Scripturally, is it ok for a bride to be and a groom to be, to live together prior to marriage? Can you answer that Scripturally?

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I'm not sure if you missed it in the Bible but There is a spiritual war going on and many of the Lord God's Children have been taken into Bondage. So God mounted a huge Rescue Operation.

So since even the very first man & woman fell from grace with God (and were taken into the bondage of sin), God immediately started the rescue operation. So ever since then anyone who has died in the flesh (post new covenant) that could be rescued by God has been rescued by God and every one of them is with God now where it is safe and they free.

So like I said, you can't make it out as God is living in sin with His bride, lol. There's a rescue operation going on. Shall the rescued ones not be taken to a safe place until the war is over?

So the entire Bible describes the events leading up to the rescue operation and the rescue operation itself.

(Boom)

DavidPT said:

As to what I said about soul sleep, I indicated that it is not my position, yet at the same time, if I'm at least going to be intellectually honest about it, I have to wonder why not. It at least seems to solve a cpl of things if true. It means Pretrib nor Amil can be true if soul sleep is true since both positions rely on that humans are literally in heaven in some form or another before Christ returns in the end of this age.

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There is no soul sleep. Before Jesus cme the first time, when a person died his soul either went to paradise (sheol) or to hell, which is a temporary holding place until their court date and their final destination will be the lake of Fire.

Before Jesus believers who died went to Abraham's Bosom, paradise whatever. They had to go there to wait because Jesus had not paid the price yet. But now Jesus has paid the price so there is no more Abrahams Bosom. The price was paid so God dont need that for His people anymore. But hell is expanding and they did need that extra room for all the people who died in their sins and have been going there.

Praise the Lord the price has been paid for us! Now for us it is, if we are absent from our body then we are with the Lord.

Or so it seems to me.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

This is the real reason people are pre-trib. They don't want to suffer. It's emotionally motivated. They ignore all the passages in the NT about suffering for Jesus (and there are tons of them).

You should tell the Christians in Nigeria that you don't have to suffer to be a Christian. They would look at you like you came from the moon.

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Actually it is not.

Jesus and the angels are coming to the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Jesus is literally on the earth redeeming lost souls. The church has already been removed. Jesus gave you the interpretation of the parable. Jesus also claimed in Matthew 25, that He would be sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and the angels would be gathering people out of all nations to stand in judgment. The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to the earth, while removing the church from the earth.

That is the reason why the church is not here on earth during the final harvest.

DavidPT said:

First I want to see how you answer that. And depending on how you answer that, I may have a follow up that explains why I asked that to begin with, thus proving you are being contradictory if you answered yes to all of that, yet still insist Pretrib is Biblical.

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The Church has been with the Lamb for 1993 years.

Jesus will be on the earth for over a thousand years, and the church remains in Paradise. The bride is still coming down as the New Jerusalem to the earth in Revelation 21. So the wedding is still over a thousand years away. Scripture does not say the New Jerusalem is the wife.

The Church has been escaping tribulation for almost 2,000 years, and yet some died as martyrs. Why is Jesus residing as King of Jerusalem with the restored Israel for a thousand years? Would that not seem suspicious? How far do you stake your doctrine on symbolism? Are you going to side with Amil and Preterist now, and declare that 7 year trib happened around 30AD?

Divide said:

The easy way out? Would Jesus allow HIS Bride to take the easy way out? Remember your own wedding day? Would you let your Bride take the easy way out? I would my Bride!! Jesus would too.

Noah got to take the easy way out. Lot got to take the easy way out. Enoch and Elijah both took the easy way out. So why wouldn't Yeshua allow HIS Bride to take the easy way out.

I know! Read this:

Revelation 19:7
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.../KJV

I ask, praytell, what does the Bride make herself ready for?

This speaks of marriage and not of war or Armegeddon or the Anti-Christ. Jesus comes once for His Wife to snatch her out and save her from God's wrath. And then we go to Heaven. The Marriage of the Lamb is in Heaven, where He went to prepare...a place for us. We wont be BBQ'ing hotdogs by a bombed out city.

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The easy way out would be to deny Jesus. Many martyrs refused to take the easy way out and were burnt at the stake. Some took the easy way out and denied Christ.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

So will you take the easy way out?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

SavedByGrace3 said:

It is not hard to understand. It is just wrong. I believed it for a few years after being saved in 1971. I think it was "The Late Great Planet Earth," Dake's writings, and Larken's teaching on dispensationalism that had me. And Scofield, I think.
Then I actually read scripture and found that it was not taught in scripture; scripture actually taught against it, and we are even warned about being deceived by it.
Regarding imminent - Paul said it will not happen before the falling away and man of sin is revealed. Jesus said it would happen after the (great) tribulation of those days. It will happen on "the last day" at the "last trump."

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Like you I was fought pretribulationism. I was in the Brethren and when I joined my dad said "Beware, their teaching on the second coming is false." But I ignored him. Some years later I met and married my wife, who was brought up in an Atheist family, but was saved when she was a teenager. We went to a number of meetings on the second coming and then one day, one of the elders at our church preached on one of the chapters of Daniel, I can't remember which one, but probably chapter 7 . Afterwards my wife said, "He said this is going to happen and that is going to happen and ghen something else is going to happen. I had my bible open and could see any of that." I re-read the chapter and then agreed with her and said "You are right, it isn't there." Then I remembered what my dad said and I realised the pretribulation teaching is false.

Timtofly said:

The Church has been with the Lamb for 1993 years.

Jesus will be on the earth for over a thousand years, and the church remains in Paradise. The bride is still coming down as the New Jerusalem to the earth in Revelation 21. So the wedding is still over a thousand years away. Scripture does not say the New Jerusalem is the wife.

The Church has been escaping tribulation for almost 2,000 years, and yet some died as martyrs. Why is Jesus residing as King of Jerusalem with the restored Israel for a thousand years? Would that not seem suspicious? How far do you stake your doctrine on symbolism? Are you going to side with Amil and Preterist now, and declare that 7 year trib happened around 30AD?

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If Jesus is on earth and the church is in Paradise, how can we be "forever with the Lord"?

The church has not been escaping tribulation for almost 2000 years. Millions died in the dark ages in the tribulation. Many more throughout the world are suffering tribulation.

One reason why most in the west don't suffer tribulation is because of the wishy washy pre tribulation teaching, it doesn't offend anyone.

Divide said:

Matthew 24:32-35
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.
34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.../NLT

What does the Fig Tree represent in scripture? Anyone? Bueller?
The Fig Tree represents Israel, good!

So when you see Israel's branches bud and leaves sprout...(We seen that on May 14th 1948. Right?

It is "this" generation that will not pass away until all these things take place. So anyone born after May 14th 1948 is the last generation that this passage speaks of.

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The fig tree in that passage doesn't mean Israel, Luke says "The fig tree and all the trees" do all the trees represent Israel? Luke says it will be "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its Desolation is near." The Christians in the city did see Jerusalem surrounded by armies and kept the city. It was fulfilled then.

David Kent said:

The easy way out would be to deny Jesus. Many martyrs refused to take the easy way out and were burnt at the stake. Some took the easy way out and denied Christ.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

So will you take the easy way out?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

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How is believing in a pre trib rapture denying Jesus?

For the sake of discussion, let's pretend that all the pre-tribbers are wrong, ok? SO tell me how a pretribber looking out the window for Jesus yesterday where you think the rapture is next week or next year or something, damaged his relationship with Jesus by looking for His arrival sooner than you?

Who has denied Jesus in this thread? I havent. The post tribbers havent. Please point me to any post where Jesus or the Father has been denied in any way.
The only debate is if it is a pre trib or post trib rapture so your implication seems baseless.

1. “Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Matthew 24:42-44

2. “The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know.” Matthew 24:50

3. “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” Matthew 25:13

4. “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come. It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake. Therefore stay awake – for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning – lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.” Mark 13:32-37


“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed.” 2 Peter 3:10

That one from 2 Peter says the Lord comes by surprise like a thief. But what is called the 2nd coming of Christ is after the great tribulation and we know exactly when that will be from Daniel 9 and other scriptures. The covenant is signed which starts the great trib, then in 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) the antochrist goes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God. Then after 1260 more days is exactly when the 2nd coming happens.

Please answer my questions. I have lots more scriptures for you too, if you need them.

Explain how the rapture is by surprise and the 2nd coming is known exactly according to events which shall unfold...and they're the same day? That is not possible. Back yourself up with scripture if you can.

David Kent said:

Like you I was fought pretribulationism. I was in the Brethren and when I joined my dad said "Beware, their teaching on the second coming is false." But I ignored him. Some years later I met and married my wife, who was brought up in an Atheist family, but was saved when she was a teenager. We went to a number of meetings on the second coming and then one day, one of the elders at our church preached on one of the chapters of Daniel, I can't remember which one, but probably chapter 7 . Afterwards my wife said, "He said this is going to happen and that is going to happen and ghen something else is going to happen. I had my bible open and could see any of that." I re-read the chapter and then agreed with her and said "You are right, it isn't there." Then I remembered what my dad said and I realised the pretribulation teaching is false.

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I think it's Daniel 9

David Kent said:

The easy way out would be to deny Jesus.

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Waitaminute. Because I believe in a pre trib rapture, that is denying Jesus?

Please explain yourself.

Divide said:

Waitaminute. Because I believe in a pre trib rapture, that is denying Jesus?

Please explain yourself.

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Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation". Dispensationalism says "Christians will escape tribulation." I think is was someone called n
Mcrath that said something like "I don't want to go through tribulation, I don't like going for an operation." And as there would be no more sea, he thought he would be able to park his car in the Pacific ocean..

A question for you.

What do you think would be the best monument or building in Canterbury, England to visit?

Revelation 7.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That great tribulation was on those who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, i.e. Christians. Also Revelation 2:9-[10,

Divide said:

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed.” 2 Peter 3:10

That one from 2 Peter says the Lord comes by surprise like a thief. But what is called the 2nd coming of Christ is after the great tribulation and we know exactly when that will be from Daniel 9 and other scriptures. The covenant is signed which starts the great trib, then in 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) the antochrist goes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God. Then after 1260 more days is exactly when the 2nd coming happens.

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Second Peter 3:10 does use the phrase “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief,". Absent is the additional description "in the night." And this surely reminds us of the Lord's words such passages as:

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (Matt. 24:43)

(Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame.) (Rev. 16:15)

For you yourselves know perfectly well that like a thief in the night, so the day of the Lord comes. ( 1 Thess. 5:2)

But you, brothers, are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (v. 4)

But I would not say they all refer to the same TIME in history.
Peter's reference to the day of the Lord coming as a thief pertains to the end of the millennium with
the complete passing away in heat death of the heavens and earth to usher in the eternal age.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish; (2 Pet. 3:10-14)

Peter skips over the whole 1,000 year millennial kingdom of (the restoration). Peter leaps forward to the end of that time to
also apply the principle that Christ comes to steal what is precious as a thief. In other words this complete burning and dissolving
of the world and the works in it when heaven and earth pass away is after this time of the millennium of restoration.

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 28:19)

Peter's application of the phrase is to the a time long after the great tribulation and thousand year "restoration."
Peter's application of the phrase is in accord with the great white throne judgment in which there was no place for
the earth and heavens before the face of Christ on the throne of the last judgment. This judgment is at least 1,000 years
after the church age and the subsequent millennial time of reward.

I stop here for this post for length's sake. Here's a singing version of 2 Pet. 3:10,12-13). I hope you enjoy even to sing along.

David Kent said:

Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation". Dispensationalism says "Christians will escape tribulation." I think is was someone called n
Mcrath that said something like "I don't want to go through tribulation, I don't like going for an operation." And as there would be no more sea, he thought he would be able to park his car in the Pacific ocean..

A question for you.

What do you think would be the best monument or building in Canterbury, England to visit?

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You didn't even answer my question. How is looking for Jesus early a denial of Jesus?

It is well known that all men on this earth will have tribulations. You quoted it yourself. Now flip over to Matthew 24:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be..../KJV

Should i blank this verse out of the bible? Why do you suppose it says "great" tribulation? Is this in fact, something different than the tribulations of man? It has to be because it explains that it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen before. Huh. Imagine that! So it is not talking about the tribulations which are common to man. Such as the world has never seen before. Can you understand that? You need to study more, and I can already tell that you dont use a Concordance at all.

I'm not likely to ever visit England. I have been not fond of them ever since History class in elementary school. The few Englanders I see on television and IRL here and there, has never piqued my interest about England. They give me weird vibes and make me feel like I dont want to visit england. Why? I dont care about Englands monuments. I dont know them and have no interest in them. I think they have a big clock tower clled big ben but I can check the time at home, lol.

Better come up with a different question.

David Kent said:

Revelation 7.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That great tribulation was on those who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, i.e. Christians. Also Revelation 2:9-[10,

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You don't even read your bible, do you? Only listen to sermons sometimes.

oikonomia said:

Second Peter 3:10 does use the phrase “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief,". Absent is the additional description "in the night." And this surely reminds us of the Lord's words such passages as:

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Divide said:

“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and all the works done on it will be exposed.” 2 Peter 3:10

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What are you talking about? I posted it right there. What is your problem with that verse?

oikonomia said:

But I would not say they all refer to the same TIME in history.
Peter's reference to the day of the Lord coming as a thief pertains to the end of the millennium with
the complete passing away in heat death of the heavens and earth to usher in the eternal age.

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The end of the millenium huh? You= have just proven that you either dont read scripture or dont understand scripture.

oikonomia said:

Peter skips over the whole 1,000 year millennial kingdom of (the restoration). Peter leaps forward to the end of that time to
also apply the principle that Christ comes to steal what is precious as a thief. In other words this complete burning and dissolving
of the world and the works in it when heaven and earth pass away is after this time of the millennium of restoration.

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oikonomia said:

Peter's application of the phrase is to the a time long after the great tribulation and thousand year "restoration."
Peter's application of the phrase is in accord with the great white throne judgment in which there was no place for
the earth and heavens before the face of Christ on the throne of the last judgment. This judgment is at least 1,000 years
after the church age and the subsequent millennial time of reward.

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Why wouldnt you answer any of my questions?
I would say....is going into your opinion and not the scriptures. I'll go ahead and believe the scriptures over your opinion.

Divide said:

What are you talking about? I posted it right there. What is your problem with that verse?



The end of the millenium huh? You= have just proven that you either dont read scripture or dont understand scripture.




Why wouldnt you answer any of my questions?
I would say....is going into your opinion and not the scriptures. I'll go ahead and believe the scriptures over your opinion.

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That was a more caustic response to my first post in this discussion then I expected.
Calm yourself. You love the Lord. So do I. You love the word. So do I.
We're talking about a difference in understanding, an interpretive matter. I mean no harm just good discussion on the truth.

Divide, you ask why wouldn't I answer your questions (?). This is the first chance I get to answer your questions. That's why.

Now, after seeing your strong reaction I read carefully over your post again to see if I misunderstood something.
Please indicate exactly where I didn't get what you wrote. It is possible I did not understand something you wrote.
But I entered (for the first time) into this disscusion not to say everything you wrote to someone was wrong in my view.
I picked up on one point of interest.

That point of interest was that Peter's mention of the day of the Lord coming as a thief (2 Pet. 3:10) is not referring to
the time 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 12:6.

Peter's application of the day of the Lord coming as a thief is 1260 days + 1,000 years + "a little while" (Rev. 20:3, 7) afterwards His parousia spoken in the other verses I mentioned about "a thief " or "a thief in the night."

Now if you have said somewhat as much already as this last sentence, tell me.
If I am not saying the same as what you said, then I have a few questions for your consideration (next post).

First tell me if you do not agree that 2 Pet. 3:10 pertains not to the end of the twelve hundred and sixty days mentioned in Rev. 12:6.

I'm in the mood today for being debunked if I'm wrong. So give it your best shot.
One more time - are we on the same page or not when I say Peter's the day of the Lord coming as a thief is LONG after
any rapture of the saints at the end of the church age?

oikonomia said:

That was a more caustic response to my first post in this discussion then I expected.
Calm yourself. You love the Lord. So do I. You love the word. So do I.
We're talking about a difference in understanding, an interpretive matter. I mean no harm just good discussion on the truth.

Divide, you ask why wouldn't I answer your questions (?). This is the first chance I get to answer your questions. That's why.

Now, after seeing your strong reaction I read carefully over your post again to see if I misunderstood something.
Please indicate exactly where I didn't get what you wrote. It is possible I did not understand something you wrote.
But I entered (for the first time) into this disscusion not to say everything you wrote to someone was wrong in my view.
I picked up on one point of interest.

That point of interest was that Peter's mention of the day of the Lord coming as a thief (2 Pet. 3:10) is not referring to
the time 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 12:6.

Peter's application of the day of the Lord coming as a thief is 1260 days + 1,000 years + "a little while" (Rev. 20:3, 7) afterwards His parousia spoken in the other verses I mentioned about "a thief " or "a thief in the night."

Now if you have said somewhat as much already as this last sentence, tell me.
If I am not saying the same as what you said, then I have a few questions for your consideration (next post).

First tell me if you do not agree that 2 Pet. 3:10 pertains not to the end of the twelve hundred and sixty days mentioned in Rev. 12:6.

I'm in the mood today for being debunked if I'm wrong. So give it your best shot.
One more time - are we on the same page or not when I say Peter's the day of the Lord coming as a thief is LONG after
any rapture of the saints at the end of the church age?

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Oh ok. Sorry about that. Apparently I thought I was responding to another of David's posts to me and didn't notice it was you. I needed more coffee I guess, lol. Gimme a few and I'll give you a proper response. Or go ahead and ask your questions.

Divide said:

There is no soul sleep. Before Jesus cme the first time, when a person died his soul either went to paradise (sheol) or to hell, which is a temporary holding place until their court date and their final destination will be the lake of Fire.

Before Jesus believers who died went to Abraham's Bosom, paradise whatever. They had to go there to wait because Jesus had not paid the price yet. But now Jesus has paid the price so there is no more Abrahams Bosom. The price was paid so God dont need that for His people anymore. But hell is expanding and they did need that extra room for all the people who died in their sins and have been going there.

Praise the Lord the price has been paid for us! Now for us it is, if we are absent from our body then we are with the Lord.

Or so it seems to me.

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That aside then since I'm not actually promoting soul sleep as of yet, just pondering it's possibility for now, assuming you read my other posts in this thread, what are your thoughts involving what I posted per post #75 and post #80? As to post #75, do you still think Pretribbers are making better sense out of the Jewish wedding customs than Post-tribbers are? Apparently, you do. Therefore, you maybe need to explain why you do, despite that the author of that article pointed out, Pretribbers are making havoc of the Jewish wedding customs per their interpretations.

As to post #80, do Pretribbers take the Pretrib rapture to be meaning the last trump involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? Because, like I pointed out, unless Pretribbers take it to involve the last trump, no one can put on bodily immortality in the meantime. This obviously presents a major problem for Pretrib if the Pretrib rapture is not meaning this same last trump in question. It would mean the church is being translated to heaven in mortal bodies rather than immortal bodies, as if that is reasonable or something. No it's not reasonable, because even Christ Himself, when He ascended into heaven, He did not do that in a mortal body, He did that in an immortal body.