How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[Divide]

Because when you really think about it you basically have the same thing if souls go to heaven upon death, that they are living with the groom outside of marriage.

Why would you try to bring a wrongness upon the name of the Lord in this way, and at the same time you are professing to be a Christian? Are you trying to provoke the Lord? Or was that just something you thought clever to say? Wow Brother, just wow.

I would not speak of my Lord in that way. I would instead think, Hmm, His ways are above my ways, and His thoughts above my thoughts so I must be misunderstanding something.

But I can tell that you are much too proud to think such a thing. lol.

 

[DavidPT]

Why would you try to bring a wrongness upon the name of the Lord in this way, and at the same time you are professing to be a Christian? Are you trying to provoke the Lord? Or was that just something you thought clever to say? Wow Brother, just wow.

I would not speak of my Lord in that way. I would instead think, Hmm, His ways are above my ways, and His thoughts above my thoughts so I must be misunderstanding something.

But I can tell that you are much too proud to think such a thing. lol.

Why did you only respond to that part but no other part as well? Do you have any reasonable explanations as to why it is not ok for a bride to be and and groom to to be, to live together outside of marriage, when applying this to a real world scenario, yet it is ok when applying that to a Pretrib scenario, where the bride and groom are living together before they are even married?

BTW, you don't have a clue what you are talking about when you are assuming all of these things about that me you just did. All I was doing was thinking outside of the box and that you royally personally attacked me for doing so, which should be against the rules of this board if nothing else, attacking someone personally like that..

 

[Divide]

Why did you only respond to that part but no other part as well? Do you have any reasonable explanations as to why it is not ok for a bride to be and and groom to to be, to live together outside of marriage, when applying this to a real world scenario, yet it is ok when applying that to a Pretrib scenario, where the bride and groom are living together before they are even married?

BTW, you don't have a clue what you are talking about when you are assuming all of these things about that me you just did. All I was doing was thinking outside of the box and that you royally personally attacked me for doing so, which should be against the rules of this board if nothing else, attacking someone personally like that..

Because you have your mind in the gutter there and not upon God.
I told you, I don't speak about my God the way you do.

Are you going to play a victim card now? Have I offended you? I thought we was trying to prove things scripturally. Why are you trying to derail the conversation and make it about something else? Is there no man to man conversation with you? Nice. Classy.

 

[DavidPT]

Because you have your mind in the gutter there and not upon God.
I told you, I don't speak about my God the way you do.

Are you going to play a victim card now? Have I offended you? I thought we was trying to prove things scripturally. Why are you trying to derail the conversation and make it about something else? Is there no man to man conversation with you? Nice. Classy.

In my mind, it's not ok for a bride to be and a groom to be, to live together prior to marriage, that God views that as a sin. Yet, that is exactly what Pretrib is doing per their view. They have the bride to be and the groom to be, living together for 7 years before they are even married. This alone should tell anyone that Pretrib is not Biblical. Yet, most of us already figured that out from other Scriptures as well, such as Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, that Pretrib is not Biblical..

 

[DavidPT]

I thought we was trying to prove things scripturally.

Didn't I just basically do that? Scripturally, is it ok for a bride to be and a groom to be, to live together prior to marriage? Can you answer that Scripturally?

 

[Divide]

mostly because of - Revelation 3:10

That is a very big verse there. All us Christians know that everything must agree with the entirety of scripture. Why hasn't any Post Tribbers enlighten us poor confused souls about what it really means and where we are wrong about Rev. 3:10?

 

[Divide]

Didn't I just basically do that? Scripturally, is it ok for a bride to be and a groom to be, to live together prior to marriage? Can you answer that Scripturally?

Well in your one post you said something about the ToS version instead of the KJV. SO can you not just basically, but speciffically do that with the KJV? Is that cool or not?

You know that can be answered scripturally. The entire process of Marriage is well explained in the OT. Everyone knows that the Bride & Groom are not supposed to live together or consumate the (intended) marriage before the ceremony.

So you found what you feel is an inconsistency in God's morals as judged by a man? For real?

Where do I start with this one?! You keep demanding a secular carnal view because you keep saying by mans standards and stuff like that when as a Christian you should full well know that the soul or body can not receive the things of the spirit. And that alone would make you think, I just don't understand it fully yet, rather than say bad things about God which are untrue.

Every single time I came across a contradiction in scripture and so over time and with some study it becomes clear that there is no contradictions. You are terribly wrong in your assertion and can I stand away from you just in case you get hit by lightning or something? Yikes, Brother! The Saints which have passed on and are with Jesus now are not guilty of any sin. And neither is God!! Have you ever heard of a holy God? What does that mean? Dude, give this line up. It's terrible. Fear God.

I felt the fear of God before. Big time. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime...

 

[DavidPT]

That is a very big verse there. All us Christians know that everything must agree with the entirety of scripture. Why hasn't any Post Tribbers enlighten us poor confused souls about what it really means and where we are wrong about Rev. 3:10?

There is more to that passage than just verse 10. One can't form doctrines out of single verses. Here's that verse in context.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

When it says in verse 11 that He comes quickly, do you take that to mean the Pretrib rapture that keeps them from the hour of temptation?

What do other Scriptures say about Him coming quickly?

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


This seems to maybe fit with the timing involving Revelation 19, the 2nd coming in the end of this age, since that coming too involves fighting with the sword of His mouth.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Is this meaning a Pretrib rapture?

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Is this meaning a Pretrib rapture?

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Is this meaning a Pretrib rapture?

Keeping in mind, none of these verses seem to be saying He comes quickly multiple times at different times. They all appear to be involving the same coming, one coming, not multiple comings. Why is that if there is also a coming involving a Pretrib coming? Why isn't that coming being accounted for per any of these verses I submitted?

 

[Divide]

When it says in verse 11 that He comes quickly, do you take that to mean the Pretrib rapture that keeps them from the hour of temptation?

Yes. The verse before that he was talking about the same thing. The entirety of the scripture that you posted makes perfect sense to me. We must be ready and expecting it to happen.

Scripture says no man knows the day or time of the rapture. So how can it be at the end of the great tribulation? Because we know exactly when Jesus will return. Back in the book of Daniel. 1260 days after the abomination of desolation by the antichrist.

The rapture could happen any time because no man not the Angels or even Jesus knows that day and time of the rapture. Right? It's very plain.

What do other Scriptures say about Him coming quickly?

The Lord has been saying that He is coming soon for thousands of years. Many scriptures like that.

How well read on the book of Daniel are you? Do you understand that Daniel was given a precise timetable through and after the great Tribulation? 3 1/2 years, then the sntichrst tries to show that he is God in the new temple and the mark of the beast implemented with no gloves on. 1260 days after that Jesus returns. Exactly. Right or not?

I know it's right.

Once the treaty is signed that lets them build the temple I think. But 1260 days after the signing of it the antichrist takes off the gloves and tries to be God and kills many people...for 1260 days then say Hi to Jesus!

So you see it is two events. The Lord comes for Hs Bride alone and when we are gone the tribulation will be starting very quick. (Because the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) will be in Heaven at the party too. And we all come back together for the 2nd coming and the Millenium on earth.

 

[DavidPT]

That might be the funniest thing I have ever read!



What? Who said the wedding don't start until after 7 years? I didn't. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be taking place at the same time as the Tribulation on the earth.

So would the Jesus you know take His Fiance to a Bloods & Crips gang war before the wedding reception? Then dinner afterwards? My friend, that is not the Jesus I know.

Why does scripture say for the Bride to make herself ready? For what? To run from the anti-christ? That makes no sense whatsoever.

You really think that Jesus would do that? Wow...

When I was Pretrib up until the early 90s, I seem to recall that the wedding was meaning just prior to the coming recorded in Revelation 19. That's what I recall being taught at the time. But, since that is apparently not your view, everything else I said, I admit it would be moot in that case, since, unfortunately, I didn't realize that Pretrib is now viewing the timing of the wedding differently than how I seem to recall it was viewing the timing of the wedding when I was Pretrib.

Let's try this instead.

Here's a question for you. What does it mean when an unbeliever becomes a believer? Does it or does it not mean they become a Christian, that they are then part of the church part of the bride? Do you agree or disagree that this means they become a Christian, that they are then part of the church part of the bride, thus nothing to debate?

First I want to see how you answer that. And depending on how you answer that, I may have a follow up that explains why I asked that to begin with, thus proving you are being contradictory if you answered yes to all of that, yet still insist Pretrib is Biblical.

 

[Divide]

Here's a question for you. What does it mean when an unbeliever becomes a believer? Does it or does it not mean they become a Christian, that they are then part of the church part of the bride? Do you agree or disagree that this means they become a Christian, that they are then part of the church part of the bride, thus nothing to debate?

What makes you think that "church" and "Bride" are the same thing? The Bride is a part of the Church. But the Church is not the Bride. The Bride is the unblemished one. The cream of the crop of all Christians. Being saved means eternal life in Heaven but it doesn't get you into the BBQ.

There is all sorts of refrences in scripture about ranking in Heaven. Angels are ranked and we are told some will be called the least in Heaven and some the greatest. So it's a no-brainer that God rescues His very best people and reward them is a very special way. And yes a part of it is getting them out of the danger zone of God's wrath. Take the hard working people of God to a Heavenly BBQ! Man I bet the Lord throws the best BBQ in the Universe! I for one do not want to miss it.

 

[Divide]

You guys don't seem to understand how much Jesus loves His people. When Jesus comes for the Bride is is only for His Bride. He did not schedule any stops at wars on the way home. When Jesus returns to fight and subdue evil to set up His Millenial Reign of 1000 years, He is coming for that alone.

Hey Babe, on the way home we're gonna stop at a gunbattle, ok? Oh, say it aint so! No. Way.

Are you guys good to your Bride? And if ye being good husbands know how to be good to your wives, then how much more so, God?!

I rest my case on that.

 

[Divide]

Matthew 24:32-35
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.
34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.../NLT

What does the Fig Tree represent in scripture? Anyone? Bueller?
The Fig Tree represents Israel, good!

So when you see Israel's branches bud and leaves sprout...(We seen that on May 14th 1948. Right?

It is "this" generation that will not pass away until all these things take place. So anyone born after May 14th 1948 is the last generation that this passage speaks of.

 

[DavidPT]

I just found the following article. A lot of good common sense involving the post trib explanation to that of the Pretrib assessment of these passages in question. I pasted most of the article below. To read in it's entirety, just go to the link provided below. The article is not that lengthy, it's a pretty fast read.

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Post-Tribulation Explanation

According to Revelation 19:7, the Bride has just “made herself ready” at the very close of the tribulation! That is when the people in heaven announce that the time for the “Marriage of the Lamb is come.”

According to A.T. Robertson: ” Is come (hlyen). Prophetic aorist, come at last.” The aorist tense implies a suddenness, completeness, or wholeness of the event. In this case, the time for the “marriage of the Lamb” has just arrived.

The problem is really for the pretribulationists. The text does not say the Bride has become ready to descend to earth. It says she has just made herself ready for the wedding. “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints” (Revelation 19:7-8).

The Bride is not yet married to Christ in Revelation 19. The above statement is made by the multitude in heaven in anticipation of the wedding, and the Groom leaving to fetch His bride. At the extreme end of the tribulation, the Bride has just become ready for the wedding, and the time has finally arrived for the wedding. In a posttribulation scheme, the final stages of the Bride’s becoming “ready” is the last persecution of the overcomers in the tribulation.

If the “Bridal” analogy is to follow Jewish custom, the Bride must “make herself ready” BEFORE the Groom comes to fetch her. Therefore, His coming to fetch the Bride should be AFTER Revelation 19:7-8 and not seven years before. Likewise, in the Jewish wedding, the marriage takes place immediately after the Bride has been fetched by the Groom and brought to their future home. In pretribulation scenario, the Groom fetches the bride seven years before she is ready, takes her to heaven (but not their future home as in the custom), and He is intimate with her for seven years before the wedding! Then after seven years of living with His bride, she finally makes herself ready for the wedding!

Only after living with her for seven years does He marry her, and then instantly leaves with her from heaven to go back to the house of the bride! Pretribulationists have made havoc of the Jewish wedding customs that are clearly intended in this passage! On the other hand, the posttribulation view is perfectly consistent with the Jewish wedding customs, assumes nothing, but takes only what is plainly stated in the text.

Is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Needed for the Wedding of the Church to Jesus?

Pre-Tribulation Assessment The contention is that since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ’s Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth Revelation 19:14 before the sec…

rayoflight2020.data.blog

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[Richard T]

There is a clear danger presented to those who hold to a pre-trib view. Paul almost literally hits this nail on the head in Thessalonians.
What will you do when suddenly there is a great falling away and the antichrist shows up on the scene? You think you are supposed to be gone up in some "rapture" by then. But you are not! Paul says this would cause many to be troubled in their mind. No doubt. Suddenly, the foundation of their faith is destroyed, and they begin to doubt if any of it is true at all.
The rapture theology took off because it was a nice tool to scare people into getting saved. Essentially, it was the gospel of being saved from the great tribulation, not salvation from sin and hell.

You would be right but rapture believing Christians, even pre-trib know that there is a baptism of suffering. That you learn obedience through the things that you suffer. This occurs regardless of whether you live in the "great tribulation." If there is no rapture, I do not see how one can know the exact day the "tribulation" starts. Perhaps the clock is already started? If pre-trib saints see a bona fide tribulation unfolding there is no evidence that they will not be able to walk in the spirit and persist like any other Christian. It is not one's eschatological doctrines that create Christian thriving, it is the fruit of the spirit, knowledge of the authority of Christ, the armor of God etc. In some ways I will be disappointed if I can't be a witness during the tribulation, but it's not my choice either way.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

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So at the end of the tribulation (last day) Jesus will rapture believers, but then turn around and bring them back to earth. The very moment they are raptured when Jesus returns to earth to fight for Israel.

Now that (above) is a, does not make sense idea about the rapture.

The concept is closer to this.
Jesus returns and calls us up to meet Him in the air, and we then accompany Him to the earth.

 

[DavidPT]

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​

So at the end of the tribulation (last day) Jesus will rapture believers, but then turn around and bring them back to earth. The very moment they are raptured when Jesus returns to earth to fight for Israel.

Now that (above) is a, does not make sense idea about the rapture.

Assuming humans are in heaven prior to the rapture, as in souls without bodies, what about the following u-turn per that scenario? Why do you apparently see that u-turn making sense but then take issue with another u-turn scenario?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Does not the text say that God will bring with Him those which sleep in Jesus? Bring with Him from where? Heaven, obviously, assuming that is where they ascend upon death, thus soul sleep is not Biblical. To then do what once He brings them with him? To return to heaven where they already were, thus a u-turn? Why not just leave them there if He's going to bring them back moments later to where they already were to begin with? And that u-turn per this scenario accomplishes exactly what?? Makes sense exactly how???

 

[DavidPT]

The concept is closer to this.
Jesus returns and calls us up to meet Him in the air, and we then accompany Him to the earth.

That's what makes good sense to me as well. It seems to explain the armies accompanying Christ in Revelation 19, that they are basically formed and transformed during the meeting in the air, which then makes sense why they return to the earth below, thus the beast and it's armies needing confronting.

 

[DavidPT]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Is it the position of Pretrib that the Pretrib rapture is meaning the last trump? Why this matters, obviously, unless the Pretrib rapture is the last trump, no one puts on bodily immortality at the time. Which then obviously means, assuming there is a Pretrib rapture, the church enters heaven in mortal bodies not immortal bodies if one is not able to put on bodily immortality until the time of the last trump. That's just common sense. As if it makes good sense, in light of the following as well--flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God(verse 50 in that same chapter), that the church enters heaven in mortal bodies, regardless. When the verses that follow indicate no one even puts on bodily immortality until the last trump.

Scripture after Scripture after Scripture refutes Pretrib, but who cares, right? One's plainly obvious false doctrines are far more important than the real truths Scripture is teaching, right?

 

[DavidPT]

Why would you try to bring a wrongness upon the name of the Lord in this way, and at the same time you are professing to be a Christian? Are you trying to provoke the Lord? Or was that just something you thought clever to say? Wow Brother, just wow.

I would not speak of my Lord in that way. I would instead think, Hmm, His ways are above my ways, and His thoughts above my thoughts so I must be misunderstanding something.

But I can tell that you are much too proud to think such a thing. lol.

As to what I said about soul sleep, I indicated that it is not my position, yet at the same time, if I'm at least going to be intellectually honest about it, I have to wonder why not. It at least seems to solve a cpl of things if true. It means Pretrib nor Amil can be true if soul sleep is true since both positions rely on that humans are literally in heaven in some form or another before Christ returns in the end of this age.

If true it at least seems to make sense out of the following passage, for example.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


How is one supposed to make sense of this if the saved are already in heaven before He appears? Am I reading the text wrong? Am I using a bad translation here? Does not the text plainly indicate that when He shall appear, we shall see Him as He is? If souls are in heaven before He shall appear, is Christ hidden from their sight or something since they have to wait until He appears before they can see him as he is? As if it makes sense, that if they are already in heaven before He appears, they are simply unable to see Him as He is, but have to wait until He appears before they can see Him as He is.

Keeping in mind, the ones initially being addressed in verse 2 above, all of them are long gone and dead now, and that this verse is equally applicable to them as it is any other saved person past, present, or future.