How does one know anything via faith?

[The Cadet]

All I know is that everyone knows there is a God.

See, now you're definitely calling me a liar, because by any meaningful definition of the term "know", I'm saying that I don't. I don't know that there is a god, and I'm kind of confused as to how you could demonstrate that my own thoughts are lying to me.

 

[JustHisKid]

See, now you're definitely calling me a liar, because by any meaningful definition of the term "know", I'm saying that I don't. I don't know that there is a god.

I know you do because God proclaims that everyone knows He is because He has made Himself known, and you have no excuse. That's what I know.

 

[AlexDTX]

It is very interesting to study both world religions and world mythologies. All through history in all cultures throughout the entire world all people have worshipped some kind of higher power. Even during the era of polytheism (which continues today in India and other places) there has always been a recognition of a single supreme being. The Chinese had many gods, but they still recognized a supreme emperor in the sky. Even the apostle Paul pointed out to the Greek Athenians that amongst all their gods they an altar to an unknown god, of whom he explained who He was.

No one believes in just a hope that there is some kind of higher power. All believe because in their hearts they are convinced that there is a higher power.

 

[JustHisKid]

It is very interesting to study both world religions and world mythologies. All through history in all cultures throughout the entire world all people have worshipped some kind of higher power. Even during the era of polytheism (which continues today in India and other places) there has always been a recognition of a single supreme being. The Chinese had many gods, but they still recognized a supreme emperor in the sky. Even the apostle Paul pointed out to the Greek Athenians that amongst all their gods they an altar to an unknown god, of whom he explained who He was.

No one believes in just a hope that there is some kind of higher power. All believe because in their hearts they are convinced that there is a higher power.

Yes, they are convinced for good reason.

Romans 1
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.…

 

[The Cadet]

I know you do because God proclaims that everyone knows He is because He has made Himself known, and you have no excuse. That's what I know.

Okay, how do you know that? How do you know Romans 1:20 is true? It seems to me that what you have here is on one hand a book saying "Everyone knows X" and on the other a person earnestly telling you "I don't know X". Why assume that I'm the one who's wrong about what's going on in my head?

Romans 1:20 is pure psychological manipulation, and is possibly the most wrongheaded verse in the entire New Testament (include the old testament and it doesn't even hit the top 20). "You're right, and everyone who disagrees with you knows you're right and are lying." That's not honest inquiry, that's the bible telling you close your mind. It's particularly absurd given that the Bible constantly appeals to faith, and knowing without seeing. This isn't people disagreeing on something that is patently obvious like whether hats exist, this is people disagreeing on something for which there can be no evidence. It's all about closing off inquiry and reaffirming the bible as true whether it is or not.

So don't tell me I know something that I don't. Especially don't tell me when what I supposedly know is the very thing I'm contesting. It's downright patronizing,really. And what about the people who have never heard of Christiainity? For some reason, Christianity didn't suddenly materialize all over the globe - missionaries had to go out and share the message. Why not just rely on everyone understanding that? After all, they have no excuse? If it weren't so manipulative, it'd be phenomenally silly.

 

[KCfromNC]

I have to respectfully disagree. Everyone has been given the knowledge of God. We know Him through His creation. It takes some effort to deny that.

When faith-peddlers make obvious mistakes like this about things we can easily test, it really kills any motivation to believe their harder to verify claims.

 

[JustHisKid]

When faith-peddlers make obvious mistakes like this about things we can easily test, it really kills any motivation to believe their harder to verify claims.

I'm no faith peddler. I do not care what you do and do not believe.

 

[marawuti]

It's understandable that you would defend your inherently weak position by attacking me personally though, It's the usual basic defensive reaction to the fear you feel in the weakness of your position.

If you point out the ad hominem I will apologize. I believe there is none, but you are welcome to be offended if you choose.

 

[marawuti]

Agreed.
Then the question as to whether in acceptance or rejection of message (here, the biblical one) there is a divine hand or power at work...



I was more dismissive of mysticism when I was younger. I still have my scepticism but not from a priori rejection of mysticism as a mode to true knowledge. It's more complicated.

Funny, we have gone in opposite directions. I now find mysticism principly self generated so immediately suspect. The God I know and trust speaks only infrequently through others minds.

Paul answers that in the next passage "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes truly, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Nothing ethereal there just one person after another passing on the good news.

"Paul answers" is phrased from within the faith, I think.

I don't see his response as being constrained or only meaningful from "within the faith" whatever that means. We are speaking a common language, and Paul's terminology there are not couched in any "words of art" of believers.

"Is Paul right to say that?" would be something almost exclusively said from outside that position.

Nonsense. That is plainly meaningful either way.

Is "This is true" an answer given to faith, or the answer faith itself generates?
I find the two difficult if not impossible to separate.

Has God spoken to me? that wanders away from the topic. It would appear He has not spoken effectively to me, which is peculiar, and leads to a branching set of possibilities (off topic!)

You're not my old friend Tom C. hiding behind a new moniker are you? Kidding.
Your tendency to impute deep subtlety on simple strait forward language is deja vu.

 

[zippy2006]

Faith never errs and, if it does, it's not faith? What a self-serving definition.

The same is true with knowledge. Do you consider the definition of knowledge "self-serving"?

 

[variant]

If you point out the ad hominem I will apologize. I believe there is none, but you are welcome to be offended if you choose.

I considered your characterization of my views on religious writings as "visceral" and that as such you could not converse with me on a rational level as unwarranted.

 

[steve moyers]

The problem is your dividing God into two. You simply have to understand language and God in a indivisible context. One of Gods names is: "particular god exists" "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" What came first the chicken or the egg? That's right, What, (being one of the names of God,) came first. You can't define faith you'll only find rhetoric, that's why faith is dead without works, belief is the work of faith but must have an ideation. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." If I come in the name of the Lord who am I? "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Truth is often found in the contradiction: Rev.3.12; If I realize overcoming and I am made a pillar in the temple,

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

but then in Rev.21.22 “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

I am not God but God is us.

Acts4.32;And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Just to put my touch on this, and your a old hippie you'll enjoy this: Graham Bond, Love is the Law

 

[Near]

Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

For those making that claim, I have a simple question.

If you hold on faith that a particular god exists, and I hold on faith that your particular god does not exist, how do we determine which one of us is right? We cannot both be right; one of us must be wrong. But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

I adhere to the belief that knowledge is justified true belief.

If someone has faith in something, and they're wrong; they don't really know the truth, but they've believed a fiction.

If something is true and there are good reasons (justification) for belief, yet a person doesn't believe that which is true, he doesn't have knowledge of such.

If someone has faith in that which is true, but has no good reason for his belief, although his faith is true, going by the definition, he doesn't have knowledge of what is true, even if he believes.

We don't use faith to make decisions on who is right.
If one of us is right, it's not that faith that causes things to be one way or another i.e. God's existence, it was that certain facts preceded our faith, and one of us just happened to be right.

Back to the main idea of knowledge: you have to believe (have faith) in what you know in order for you to know it.

 

[paulm50]

Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

The difference between knowledge and religious faith is. One requires continual learning, testing, investigating, the other tells you what to think of the power of a man saying "god said so".

 

[paulm50]

Imagine if a Mormon was in power, would his view on Christianity dictate some of his decisions?

You can use any sect, or sub sect of any religion to use that example. His faith, may dictate your quest for knowledge. This is happening in schools right now in America. Look at how "faith" dictates what others can learn.

 

[Near]

The difference between knowledge and religious faith is. One requires continual learning, testing, investigating, the other tells you what to think of the power of a man saying "god said so".

I think you're using a very narrow and personalized definition of faith that doesn't apply to a broad audience of people.

 

[paulm50]

I think you're using a very narrow and personalized definition of faith that doesn't apply to a broad audience of people.

So give examples please.

 

[Near]

So give examples please.

Faith is merely about mental confidence in someone or something, whether it be a person's loyalty, faith in a religion, or the belief that metaphysical solipsism is false.

It just seems strange to say faith tells you what to think of the power of a man saying "god said so". By that I'm understanding that you think of faith as some sort of crippling mental trap subjecting people to other men in power, ex.some abusive clergy having power over it's church.

 

[paulm50]

Faith is merely about mental confidence in someone or something, whether it be a person's loyalty, faith in a religion, or the belief that metaphysical solipsism is false.

It just seems strange to say faith tells you what to think of the power of a man saying "god said so". By that I'm understanding that you think of faith as some sort of crippling mental trap subjecting people to other men in power, ex.some abusive clergy having power over it's church.

So ISIS is telling people to go on suicide missions because?

The Roman Catholics went to numerous wars, because?

Religions executed or still do because the victim thinks differently, because?

I could go on and on. Because of the number of people who have told their followers to do horrendous acts, because they claimed it was gods will. From the time of Moses. Your problem is in saying "some abusive clergy having power over it's church."

Look at religion as a whole and a tool. Then ask yourself if it's always been led by good men? Even today the fight against gays, sex, marriage, women, schools shows it wants to use it's power to oppress and limit learning.

 

[Near]

So ISIS is telling people to go on suicide missions because?

The Roman Catholics went to numerous wars, because?

Religions executed or still do because the victim thinks differently, because?

I could go on and on. Because of the number of people who have told their followers to do horrendous acts, because they claimed it was gods will. From the time of Moses. Your problem is in saying "some abusive clergy having power over it's church."

Look at religion as a whole and a tool. Then ask yourself if it's always been led by good men? Even today the fight against gays, sex, marriage, women, schools shows it wants to use it's power to oppress and limit learning.

My reply kept in mind the OP, how faith would be involved in knowledge. I provided an answer. You need to have faith (ex. trust in an idea) in something in order to know it, since knowledge, as I understand, is justified true belief.
If a claim is justified and true, yet a person doesn't believe it (have faith in it), he doesn't have knowledge.

When speaking of faith, you're using a narrow understanding focused on the negativity associated with certain organizations. I'm just referring to a mental state of confidence in something. I'm not even referring to religious faith.

Whether or not some organization is evil because of "faith" has nothing to do with the OP. You can make a new thread for those topics if you wish.