How does one know anything via faith?

[paulm50]

The way our body is made can decide what we are able to feel for pleasure and what we can do to get it. But even if I can do something, this does not mean it would be good. So, I pray for God to guide me . . . for the sake, first, of being with Him and pleasing Him. And I experience that I do best by investing in learning how to love, instead of investing a lot in entertainment.

Loving does me more good, and it is better than physical pleasures that I have known. I mean that God's love does me more good while I am with Him and being personally sharing with and interested in any and all people. His love makes me "automatically" deeply satisfied and even feeling good, better than any physical entertainment ever has made me feel > this is my personal experience. But my satisfaction is not only from feeling good, but moreso being personal with God and people is better than just how I feel. I can't explain, I think, what I mean by "personal" being better than only feeling good. But love is personal, not distant, and the intimacy in me is better than physical.

There is connection, with God. And the book does say, "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If you read the verse before this, I think we can agree this is comparing spiritual intimacy with sexual intimacy and saying it is better to be one with God. He made sex; so He's better But this is not merely better in pleasure. Being personal with God and people in love is something I maybe can't explain, but it is better than only lust for physical pleasure, I keep finding.

While I am in God's love I have almighty immunity against negative and degrading stuff; so while I am busy in loving > when things and people go against me, love keeps me sweet and gentle and pleasant and reacting creatively; but in lust stuff, my first reacting to things changing on me is how I can go through changes that are degrading, and the lust is degrading, anyway, by not being in the quality of love.

And, in order to do lust stuff, we can have to protect our activity, in order to make it work; we might need to isolate ourselves, somehow. But God's love is good anywhere, any time >

"You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies" (in Psalm 23:5)

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

This is what I experience, and the book says things which match with this, I am finding. There are things I get in the book, first, then I experience; other times, I might get an understanding from seeing what I see, and then think of or find it in the book.

I test by seeking to be with God in His peace, then see what I discover myself doing by staying in peace with Him >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

If I go with lust, I find myself getting less and less quality of peace, though there can be pleasure of different sorts. It can feel pretty spectacular, but it's not like His peace. And in loving people, the quality of goodness in me is obviously better than what is in lust which is not good and is degrading; and when I get into some hang-up while trying to do lust stuff, I am in weakness to give in to frustration and other nasty and negative stuff . . . not being able to take no for an answer sweetly and creatively, like I can when love and peace are taking care of me

Weakness for pleasure can multi-task as weakness for pain.

So, I'm talking what has been spiritual experience with the book as escort, like a driver's manual > if you have only the manual and you never have experienced a car, at all, the book "may" not make sense.

So you start by praying, then only getting the answer that's already in your head. You go to the book.

"I think we can agree this is comparing spiritual intimacy with sexual intimacy and saying it is better to be one with God" No we can't agree. Sex is a pleasure, it has nothing to do with love, or being one with god.

You then say "almighty immunity against negative and degrading stuff" what is negative of regrading about sex.

As for lust, this is obviously an emotion that's part of us. Sex is the only way we produce babies, it's a hit and miss thing, even on the right day at the right time the odds can be long. Therefore it was made pleasurable, to ensure we "Go forth and multiply". Not regard lust as a sin, or sex as degrading.

My wife and I had a lot of trouble conceiving our daughter. Thankfully we enjoyed it. Not because we're in love, love is tested in far harder ways, but because we were having a ball.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

For those making that claim, I have a simple question.

If you hold on faith that a particular god exists, and I hold on faith that your particular god does not exist, how do we determine which one of us is right? We cannot both be right; one of us must be wrong. But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

By examining the evidences for a personal theistic Creator (God) even though we haven't (yet) seen this Creator. You don't have to always SEE something to know it is a reality, such as gravity, the wind, electrons running thru a wire , et al... Solid Faith is always based on good sound reason and not some mamby pamby kind of wishing and hoping . Solid Faith is grounded on evidence and there is plenty of evidences that God has provided us to have a solid faith in him leading to a personal relationship if our Will desires such. Many people however, don't want to really go looking too deeply because of the obvious implications to being morally accountable to a Creator of the Universe who is also the Creator of our Souls ---- many Folks simply don't want to turn over their authority to even the Creator . For those that are willing and do, then they discover their true meaning and purpose to life and experience everlasting fulfillment because the God shaped void has been filled up. We all have this void and we all have eternity written on our hearts . Nothing is worse than missing out on eternity in the presence of a Creator who loves us immensely , for, every day in eternity will be filled with utter bliss which isn't comprehensible to us right now. I hope you wont miss it.

 

[The Cadet]

By examining the evidences for a personal theistic Creator (God) even though we haven't (yet) seen this Creator. You don't have to always SEE something to know it is a reality, such as gravity, the wind, electrons running thru a wire , et al...

These are bad examples. If you want a demonstration of the phenomenon we define as gravity, you can life a pen and drop it. Anyone anywhere can immediately and instantly demonstrate gravity. If you want a demonstration of the phenomenon of wind, wait for the next big storm in your region and watch the trees sway. If you want a demonstration of the phenomenon of electrons running through a wire, I'm sure there's some way we can induce mild, non-harmful electric shocks to demonstrate that the phenomenon actually exists. It's not about seeing. It's about having any phenomenon at all to examine.

Solid Faith is always based on good sound reason and not some mamby pamby kind of wishing and hoping .

Okay, that's different from what I've heard from many Christians, but okay, we can work with that.

Solid Faith is grounded on evidence and there is plenty of evidences that God has provided us to have a solid faith in him leading to a personal relationship if our Will desires such.

So how does one detect god in this case? What phenomenon is he responsible for? You say we can have a personal relationship with him if our will desires such, but most atheists are former religious believers, who tried long and hard to have a personal relationship with god and failed. One of my favorite speakers, Matt Dillahunty, was a southern baptist for most of his life and was deconverted when he tried to fulfill his obligation in 1 Peter 3:15, and realized he didn't have a good reason, nor any type of personal relationship. I was a Christian for much of my life, but for all the time I spent praying, sooner or later I was stuck with the realization that I was alone, speaking to an empty room.

Many people however, don't want to really go looking too deeply because of the obvious implications to being morally accountable to a Creator of the Universe who is also the Creator of our Souls ---- many Folks simply don't want to turn over their authority to even the Creator .

Nonsense. Nobody thinks like this. This is like knowing gravity exists, but not believing in it in order to ensure that your jump out of a plane with no parachute will work out just fine. This is not how anyone thinks. Would you please acknowledge that many atheists did go looking deeply and intensely, and ended up finding nothing?

 

[Kylie]

By not assuming I know the truth and instead ask honest questions and gain knowledge that leads me to the truth.

Seems to me that the best way to find the truth is to test it and see if it accurately reflects reality.

 

[paulm50]

Solid Faith is grounded on evidence and there is plenty of evidences that God has provided us to have a solid faith in him leading to a personal relationship if our Will desires such.

What evidence?

And not some namby pamby wishful thinking. Then link the evidence to any bible of any religion. Tough, because all are based on Nature, of not thinking and putting free will into it. They all require you to follow other people instructions.

 

[Chriliman]

Seems to me that the best way to find the truth is to test it and see if it accurately reflects reality.

I did test my theory that there is a problem at the bottom of reason in that forum and the forum itself confirmed the truth that some base there reasoning on assumptions and others base there reasoning on observations. The truth is we have no choice but to base reasoning on observation but we can choose to not assume.

 

[com7fy8]

And God gives us strength and guiding wisdom so we are attracted to someone we belong with, for loving . . . not only for pleasure. So, He's not against it, but He has better guiding than just what makes us feel a physical pleasure and a rush.

So why were so many marriages in those times arranged by the parents?

Possibly because the parents were more mature than the ones match-made; and so they could have a better ability to perceive who belonged with whom . . . how God guided them. I understand that our Father does use more mature people to help ones less mature.

However . . . even if God miraculously directed certain matchmaking parents, still the ones who were married, this way, were not perfect; so they could mess up even what God set up.

If we go by what gives us pleasure, this can keep us from first loving someone special. It can be only using someone. And I offer that love does not have us only using anyone

And, as you know, it does not necessarily take much intelligence or ability to get a sexual pleasure. Yes, there are many ways one can get it. But love guides us to better.

When we have sex with a friend, it's great. Pleasure is built on the experience and fitness of our lover. We can have good sex with anyone.

Real love is so far removed from sex, I wonder why you link it.

I understand that sex is meant to be shared by ones already in a deep personal intimacy of God's love > I mean it is meant to be linked with love. It is not for using only for pleasure and "recreation". And I think it can be a problem to be so involved with someone whom you do not love and know very well . . . because you don't even really know who you are sexually involved with. A practical concern, "of course", is the possibility of diseases; but that is not really the main and major part of it. I would offer, that if God's love is satisfying you, enough is enough with whoever you are with in a real love relationship.

I understand what confuses you. Sex, lust, desire are all parts of our being. When we see an attractive person, we release a hormone into our body that attracts us to that person in a sexual way. It lowers our inhibitions. Lust is part of who we are. We do this visually, there are many studies that prove when a woman is ovulating men think her more attractive and a woman will be more sexually aroused when ovulating.

In other words, I think you are saying it doesn't even matter how the person really is, as long as they are physically capable of sex. By doing things, this way, a person is attracted only by looks. I think true sexual attraction is with interest in bringing up sound children who are pleasing to God (yes, it's in the book > Malachi 2:13-16). So, the main part of sexual attraction needs to be to someone because of the person's character . . . so the person is able to reproduce children who are for God.

And so . . . I understand that we all were born in sin; so all of us were not made God's way, but in sin which has lusts which would be so vain as to attract us only to looks. God's love is much more satisfying and can have us enjoying pleasure in a much better way

And if love is satisfying a person, enough is enough > if God's love makes us content, we won't be getting distracted and pushed around by dominating and dictatorial drives.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Once through puberty, single or married, women every our weeks. Men all the time.

Other animals are only aroused when the female ovulates, some choose one partner for life. Some have many partners, some only the dominant male mates.

Yet a book written by men, goes against the way we are made. So god made us like this and wants to torment us, or men wrote it in.

There is not torment, unless we are degraded by sin which makes us so we can be tormented while being dictated-to by lusts. Jesus gives us "rest for your souls."

Am I perfectly this way? No. But I experience that God keeps changing me and making me more natural at first loving, and not being taken elsewhere to wanting to use someone I don't even really know, for a pleasure. Getting into seeking pleasure with someone because of looks is an investment of time and attention and energy, away from how I can be sharing with a lady in love.

Why invest so much away from love? If you say it is only for pleasure, why go there? I mean, if it is not linked with love, why "would" God make us with lusts which take us elsewhere? I find that love is so better. And, like I offer, we all were born . . . wrong. So, why be a slave to how we started as a zygote and a little baby or kid?

I offer that it is good not to allow our past or wrong people to decide how we are now. We have made wrong choices, while younger; if those decisions or actions were not really good for us, why justify them and keep on with the wrong stuff they can produce now? God can change me so I don't give in to that stuff; but I need my character corrected and cured so I can.

Others have written to me, here, but it is time to get some sleep, so I can go visit my lady But I hope to be back; God bless you

 

[paulm50]

Possibly because the parents were more mature than the ones match-made; and so they could have a better ability to perceive who belonged with whom . . . how God guided them. I understand that our Father does use more mature people to help ones less mature.

However . . . even if God miraculously directed certain matchmaking parents, still the ones who were married, this way, were not perfect; so they could mess up even what God set up.

The matches were made because of gain.

I understand that sex is meant to be shared by ones already in a deep personal intimacy of God's love > I mean it is meant to be linked with love. It is not for using only for pleasure and "recreation". And I think it can be a problem to be so involved with someone whom you do not love and know very well . . . because you don't even really know who you are sexually involved with. A practical concern, "of course", is the possibility of diseases; but that is not really the main and major part of it. I would offer, that if God's love is satisfying you, enough is enough with whoever you are with in a real love relationship.

That is not how we are made. So if god made us, what you describe is against his wishes. Research how out body works, and compare it to what we're told. There's a mismatch

In other words, I think you are saying it doesn't even matter how the person really is, as long as they are physically capable of sex. By doing things, this way, a person is attracted only by looks. I think true sexual attraction is with interest in bringing up sound children who are pleasing to God (yes, it's in the book > Malachi 2:13-16). So, the main part of sexual attraction needs to be to someone because of the person's character . . . so the person is able to reproduce children who are for God.

Smell and taste have a lot to do with sexual attraction. Then there's the time in a woman's cycle linking to her ovulating. Sexual attraction has little to do with making babies. The odds on getting pregnant aren't good enough. So it's fun, enjoyable and pleasurable. To ensure we do it often. And ensure we reproduce. As for bringing up children, it has nothing to do with that.

And so . . . I understand that we all were born in sin; so all of us were not made God's way, but in sin which has lusts which would be so vain as to attract us only to looks. God's love is much more satisfying and can have us enjoying pleasure in a much better way

Why would something we have to do, is enjoyable and healthy, be sinful?

 

[com7fy8]

The matches were made because of gain.

I think each match is unique; so we should not make the same general evaluation about them all. As I offered, matchmaking could be done right, by having mature parents assist the couple. But, still, the character of the matched younger people can effect how well they do.

That is not how we are made. So if god made us, what you describe is against his wishes.

He made us, but lust is not His doing. But if people believe that humans are physical only, they are not going to accept that there is God and, also, "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). I understand that Satan's evil spirit can drive and maneuver people to use what God has designed, but they are controlled by dominating and dictatorial emotions, instead of sharing sensitively in love while doing something. When I say lust, I mean dominating and dictatorial stuff which does not satisfy, and even after you do what it forces you to do, still you aren't deeply satisfied; because only in God's love do we have real satisfaction . . . while doing what He has us doing.

Why would something we have to do, is enjoyable and healthy, be sinful?

Sex is God's creation. But it needs to be in the right hands . . . of the right spiritual being having us use what God has designed.

A car is not the same thing, "of course", but we know a car is designed to be driven; but it needs to be driven in the right way, with the right attitude, and with responsibility by a sober person. "And you can't learn how to drive a car, without someone with you to help you learn. Like this, we can't have real sex without God who made it, guiding us and sharing with us so we find out how sex is really meant to be."

God means for sex to be done in love. And lust that I am talking about is drive which is impersonal, or pretty much, and has people only using each other but not being sensitive and tender with each other and caring most of all for each other. God's way of sex is not for the pleasure; His love gives us better satisfaction and this is in sensitive and tender sharing with one's spouse.

And possibly you have said that sex outside marriage is with lust and for pleasure and not connected with love. That is correct; it isn't. Only in God's way of marriage can it be linked with His love You have said they are not linked, I think you said.

However, they can be, and then it is better than pleasure and is personal, including in sharing with God as well as each other

And the example of this can spread to the children, so they learn how to love in a close and kind and caring and tenderly cherishing relationship, like their parents. So, the sex needs to be humbled and the love first

And the spiritual being who you are doing something with is important. Jesus gives us "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) He is "gentle and lowly" with us, Matthew 11:29 does say. His emotions and feelings and reacting are gentle and humble, in His love. So, sex in this love has sensitive and intimate and gentle and humble affection, not only being driven and controlled to get pleasure.

So, I get judged first, if I am a Christian (1 Peter 4:17). I need how God corrects me about this, still.

And, by the way, this all has to do with the subject of this thread. Faith has us connected with God so we are sharing with Him in His love. And in this sharing the sex is better than what lust drags and even torments people to do. You said, I think, something about there being torment, maybe meaning how you can suffer if you don't go along with lust; but that is dictatorial and dominating. You wouldn't let a human push you around, like that . . . maybe.

But you know what really is worth knowing, by "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6). And faith has us with God so we discover how better things are while we do things in sharing with Him. Faith has us connected with Him so we know by experience what the Bible says.

And as we are seeing, ones using only an intellectual approach and a physically scientific method are not getting into God's love and knowing by actual experience. Ones ask for proof, but they refuse to get with God who is our proof. And they ask questions, but this does not get them the real proof which is in sharing with God in His love.

 

[paulm50]

I think each match is unique; so we should not make the same general evaluation about them all. As I offered, matchmaking could be done right, by having mature parents assist the couple. But, still, the character of the matched younger people can effect how well they do.

Only if it was the very poor without anything to share. Read up or look around at religions that haven't advanced for evidence.

He made us, but lust is not His doing.

He made us, but lust isn't his doing. so something more powerful than god tampered with us, or he allowed the tampering. I didn't read

Sex is God's creation. But it needs to be in the right hands . . . of the right spiritual being having us use what God has designed.

You mean under the control of the priests.

A car is not the same thing, "of course", but we know a car is designed to be driven; but it needs to be driven in the right way, with the right attitude, and with responsibility by a sober person. "And you can't learn how to drive a car, without someone with you to help you learn. Like this, we can't have real sex without God who made it, guiding us and sharing with us so we find out how sex is really meant to be."

God means for sex to be done in love. And lust that I am talking about is drive which is impersonal, or pretty much, and has people only using each other but not being sensitive and tender with each other and caring most of all for each other. God's way of sex is not for the pleasure; His love gives us better satisfaction and this is in sensitive and tender sharing with one's spouse.

No god didn't want it only done in love. Or something more powerful than god changed it.

I stopped reading at this point. Because you are making statements with absolutely no proof. The evidence points to what I said as being right. We are guided by looks, small and taste. Love is so far above the sex act, I wouldn't bother linking it.

Read about our biology regarding sex, then read the bible and see what god or nature created to ensure we reproduce, then read what men wrote.

So if you believe god created us, our bodies are testament to what he created. If you believe something else changed his work. It must be greater than god, or with god's blessings.

Or a few men who were anti sex, wrote their feelings into the bible.

 

[anonymous person]

By examining the evidences for a personal theistic Creator (God) even though we haven't (yet) seen this Creator. You don't have to always SEE something to know it is a reality, such as gravity, the wind, electrons running thru a wire , et al... Solid Faith is always based on good sound reason and not some mamby pamby kind of wishing and hoping . Solid Faith is grounded on evidence and there is plenty of evidences that God has provided us to have a solid faith in him leading to a personal relationship if our Will desires such. Many people however, don't want to really go looking too deeply because of the obvious implications to being morally accountable to a Creator of the Universe who is also the Creator of our Souls ---- many Folks simply don't want to turn over their authority to even the Creator . For those that are willing and do, then they discover their true meaning and purpose to life and experience everlasting fulfillment because the God shaped void has been filled up. We all have this void and we all have eternity written on our hearts . Nothing is worse than missing out on eternity in the presence of a Creator who loves us immensely , for, every day in eternity will be filled with utter bliss which isn't comprehensible to us right now. I hope you wont miss it.

Excellent post Dave!

 

[paulm50]

Dave, the evidence you claim is nature. Often denied by clergy of many faiths. The solid evidence that the bible is wrong, is there for all to see who want to see.

And there's the problem of blind faith. It is there to shut out the truth. In case it exposes people to the evidence the bible is a book of stories meant to do what all bibles of all faiths are for. To gather and control people.

Nothing is worse than living all your life hoping you made the grade for an afterlife, to only find the lights go out and that's it. Which is a nano second before the brain switches off, so don't fret.

 

[Kylie]

If faith can lead to an objective truth, then why is it that faith leads so many different people to so many different results? Faith, as a means to find truth, doesn't seem to be very reliable.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

It is said that people came to the Prophet (saws) and said "we all worship one god in our own ways".

Surah ul Kafiroon was then revealed:

http://quran.com/109

For me destiny (or divine decree) and action, faith belief and destination are all interwoven. You don't see a sikh in a buddhist temple, or a christian in a mosque. We have different destinaitons in this life. When a hindu says "This statue is God, who I would be with for ever" what if he or she is held to their word? What if a Christian has to "worship the lamb" or the "host" for ever? etc. If people were held to their own conceptions in other worlds.

Faith leads to (in this word) a disclosure of reality - via worship. The reality of singing, dancing, charity etc. For me primarily in a Mosque. Take your pick from the trees of religion. I have my lived truth. Thats the "haq" (truth, confirmation, obligation) of the deen (lifstyle, way) for me - the disclosed truth which answers my essence (fitra, nature) and fits me (is appropriate, straight, upright, correct). *smiles*

Destiny: mid-14c., from Old French destinée (12c.) "purpose, intent, fate, destiny; that which is destined," noun use of fem. past participle of destiner, from Latin destinare "make firm, establish" (see destination). The sense is of "that which has been firmly established," as by fate.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed.

Please see:
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It includes:

The CF Philosophy forum is not intended for general apologetics of Christianity, i.e., the defense of the Christian faith against arguments, objections or attacks from non-Christians. Nor is this forum intended as a means for Christian evangelism (persuasion) of unbelievers. We ask that you would show respect for the Christian faith and not make posts which insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Threads which staff determines are intended for the sole purpose of attacking or arguing against Christianity will be closed.

Blasphemy in some of the posts will be removed too.

 

[Tinker Grey]

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