How does one know anything via faith?

[ken777]

Even the people he killed for being evil? Did he take the Canaanite to the next level and the innocent people he killed in Egypt?
So how can they all be right?

Non believers always get stuck on that. If we are all going to die, it really doesn't matter how or when. Dying early could even be a blessing. It is what happens after we die that matters.

That to me showed how he wasn't a god. A god would of stopped people killing him, wouldn't of been in an outpost of the Roman Empire and would be here to prove himself. It would save so much trouble.

Jesus demonstrated what even non believers believe:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
God's kingdom is a higher level (dimension) than this physical realm, but even in this life the most precious things cannot be proved by empirical evidence: love, peace, joy, faith.

Do you think religion, as the entire concept, is to make us free, or make us follow?

Great question. Those who are sometimes called "legalists" by other Christians, do tend to focus on the "follow" aspect. I see my religion as liberating because I was involved in a very selfish, self-centred way of life and it was my faith in Jesus Christ that allowed me to see true fulfilment is in what we can contribute and what we can do for others.

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[paulm50]

Non believers always get stuck on that. If we are all going to die, it really doesn't matter how or when. Dying early could even be a blessing. It is what happens after we die that matters.

About as illogical as possible

Jesus demonstrated what even non believers believe:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
God's kingdom is a higher level (dimension) than this physical realm, but even in this life the most precious things cannot be proved by empirical evidence: love, peace, joy, faith.

More illogic.

Great question. Those who are sometimes called "legalists" by other Christians, do tend to focus on the "follow" aspect. I see my religion as liberating because I was involved in a very selfish, self-centred way of life and it was my faith in Jesus Christ that allowed me to see true fulfilment is in what we can contribute and what we can do for others.

I'm glad it was there to help you and it's the positive side of religion.

In some Christian sectors it's there, in others it's not. It binds people to more rules. Maybe the rigid structure helps some.

Islam, Judaism and others, have a long way to go. And we must always remember men wrote, compiled and edited the bibles. It wasn't so long ago that I would of been executed for speaking out. Is a god threatened by me. Or men?

I see making a woman wear a scarf over her head in church as a restriction, no god is going to be bothered about women wearing scarves in church. Same goes for more extreme dress codes. A god would be way above that, men on the other hand aren't.
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[ken777]

About as illogical as possible

Well, either that or it is too deep for you to understand.

Why is it so difficult for you to see that world religions are made up of a whole range of ideas, some helpful and some not helpful. This is a Christian forum so we hold Jesus Christ as the highest revelation of God. Comments about headscarves and such are just not relevant.

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[paulm50]

Well, either that or it is too deep for you to understand.

Why is it so difficult for you to see that world religions are made up of a whole range of ideas, some helpful and some not helpful. This is a Christian forum so we hold Jesus Christ as the highest revelation of God. Comments about headscarves and such are just not relevant.

These events were meant as punishments, so how is punishing someone turned into something benefitting them.

Why is it difficult for you to see religions had one idea. To control the lower orders?

They lay down how we should live. Not so long ago Christians embarked on the same kind of war Muslims are in the middle of now. Religions more often than not demand we give them money, give them power and influence and that we do what they want rather than what we want.

The headscarf is just one rule of many. Ignoring the point doesn't make it go away. Do your really think a god would care if a man wore a tiny hat on his head, or a woman covered her whole body. Or that a woman was a virgin when getting married?

These are the concerns of men, not gods.

 

[ken777]

These events were meant as punishments, so how is punishing someone turned into something benefitting them.

Death is not a punishment because we all die. People were removed because they were perverting God's law. Our society does something similar.

Why is it difficult for you to see religions had one idea. To control the lower orders? They lay down how we should live. Not so long ago Christians embarked on the same kind of war Muslims are in the middle of now. Religions more often than not demand we give them money, give them power and influence and that we do what they want rather than what we want.

Can you see a difference between religion and faith? Yes, religion is sometimes used to control people because it is a system that includes both good and bad people. Faith is a personal understanding and relationship with God.

The headscarf is just one rule of many. Ignoring the point doesn't make it go away. Do your really think a god would care if a man wore a tiny hat on his head, or a woman covered her whole body. Or that a woman was a virgin when getting married?
These are the concerns of men, not gods.

I do not support headscarves but I respect the people who choose to wear one.
Jesus taught sexual morality and I can see good reasons for that.

 

[com7fy8]

Sex is made to please us,

There can be pleasure, but it needs to be at the right time, in the right way. There are many things which can have pleasure, but they can kill you, right away, at the wrong time and place. "And even if there is no obvious danger, still seeking the pleasure can have you missing out on love."

And God gives us strength and guiding wisdom so we are attracted to someone we belong with, for loving . . . not only for pleasure. So, He's not against it, but He has better guiding than just what makes us feel a physical pleasure and a rush.

If we go by what gives us pleasure, this can keep us from first loving someone special. It can be only using someone. And I offer that love does not have us only using anyone

And, as you know, it does not necessarily take much intelligence or ability to get a sexual pleasure. Yes, there are many ways one can get it. But love guides us to better.

 

[com7fy8]

The claim that people suffering from brain damage whose personalities undergo massive shifts are somehow "expressing a real, deep-down character" is something I think you ought to prove, and something I don't think you can, because that's not how brain injury works. What is this deep-down character, and can you provide evidence for it?

I mean that we humans are not only physical. And I do not think the study of physical science can prove what is nonphysical. It is "kind of" like how you can't use a rock to prove the existence of water. And, "of course", your character can effect what you want to believe and are really willing to accept, and what you use for proving things. If you don't want to believe that water exists, you can make sure you demand proof from rocks.

Look, we know that brain damage can and does cause massive changes in a person's personality.

And we know how a major change in a person's circumstance can be followed by a major change in the person's personality. This can be because the person is reacting to how things are different.

But I mean that we humans have our deeper nature which is spiritual . . . nonphysical, and from here we can react to things physical and our reacting can be a change which shows in our behavior. And, "of course", if the brain is changed so some functions are no longer available to a person, then her or his personal reaction patterns can change because of what is available for the person to do and have.

 

[com7fy8]

I'm sorry, but this makes little sense at all. Alzheimer's disease isn't typically associated with drastic changes in personality,

Each person is unique; so I can see that each person with Alzheimers can react differently, showing more or less personality change.

but behavioural variant frontotemporal dementia (bvFTD) is.

Isn't that where ones once did lobotomies?? And then ones could calm down a lot, I was told.

I think it would be silly to claim that the patient's "real character" comes through in bvFTD. It's the disease, not their "real character."

Well, if someone believes there is only physical existence, this can effect what a person believes about the real character of a person's deeper spiritual nature. But I find the Bible does say that we have a spiritual level of being. Also, we can be effected by God and also by evil spiritual beings which can act out through us, in different ways.

And God's love makes us gentle and humble.

But a Satanic being can make people nasty and erratic in destructive ways.

"Love does no harm to a neighbor" (in Romans 13:10).

So, I trust God so that if I ever were to be brain injured or whatever, I would stay kind, even though I might not be very functional in my brain. It would depend on Him keeping me, not my own ability of my brain.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Each person is unique; so I can see that each person with Alzheimers can react differently, showing more or less personality change. Isn't that where ones once did lobotomies?? And then ones could calm down a lot, I was told. Well, if someone believes there is only physical existence, this can effect what a person believes about the real character of a person's deeper spiritual nature. But I find the Bible does say that we have a spiritual level of being. Also, we can be effected by God and also by evil spiritual beings which can act out through us, in different ways.

And God's love makes us gentle and humble.

But a Satanic being can make people nasty and erratic in destructive ways.

"Love does no harm to a neighbor" (in Romans 13:10).

So, I trust God so that if I ever were to be brain injured or whatever, I would stay kind, even though I might not be very functional in my brain. It would depend on Him keeping me, not my own ability of my brain.

Are you suggesting that brain injuries and diseases reveal a person's "real" character? If that's what you're saying, then it is deeply controversial. So if someone who is kind and gentle becomes cruel and aggressive after a brain injury, you want to claim that this is who they always were?

 

[Chriliman]

Are you suggesting that brain injuries and diseases reveal a person's "real" character? If that's what you're saying, then it is deeply controversial. So if someone who is kind and gentle becomes cruel and aggressive after a brain injury, you want to claim that this is who they always were?

No, I think what he's meaning is that brain injuries remove the safe guards of rational and reasonable thought that were placed there in order to protect the mind from evil, but if those safe guards are physically removed, evil has easy access into the mind. This is also why the brain was designed to be able to heal itself, but it takes will power and understanding of how the brain works in order to effectively heal the brain or an act of God.

You do realize the brain is the most powerful tool that we know of within this universe, however the brain has no power to perceive what is outside the universe, but somehow this doesn't limit humans from being able to perceive, in a limited way, what's outside the universe, why do you think that is?

 

[The Cadet]

I mean that we humans are not only physical. And I do not think the study of physical science can prove what is nonphysical.

Well then how would you prove that?

But I mean that we humans have our deeper nature which is spiritual . . . nonphysical

What does it even mean to have a non-physical nature? And how would you establish that this is the truth?

 

[paulm50]

Death is not a punishment because we all die. People were removed because they were perverting God's law. Our society does something similar.

The only person perverting god's law in Egypt was Pharaoh. The Canaanite had done no wrong. So why kill innocent people?
[/QUOTE]Can you see a difference between religion and faith? Yes, religion is sometimes used to control people because it is a system that includes both good and bad people. Faith is a personal understanding and relationship with God.

Religious faith is a personal relationship with a book.

I do not support headscarves but I respect the people who choose to wear one.

There's no choice involved, dress codes are forced on many.

Jesus taught sexual morality and I can see good reasons for that.

Where is that in the bible?

 

[paulm50]

There can be pleasure, but it needs to be at the right time, in the right way. There are many things which can have pleasure, but they can kill you, right away, at the wrong time and place. "And even if there is no obvious danger, still seeking the pleasure can have you missing out on love."

Would that be determined by the way out body is made, or the way the book tells us to?

And God gives us strength and guiding wisdom so we are attracted to someone we belong with, for loving . . . not only for pleasure. So, He's not against it, but He has better guiding than just what makes us feel a physical pleasure and a rush.

So why were so many marriages in those times arranged by the parents?

If we go by what gives us pleasure, this can keep us from first loving someone special. It can be only using someone. And I offer that love does not have us only using anyone

And, as you know, it does not necessarily take much intelligence or ability to get a sexual pleasure. Yes, there are many ways one can get it. But love guides us to better.

When we have sex with a friend, it's great. Pleasure is built on the experience and fitness of our lover. We can have good sex with anyone.
Real love is so far removed from sex, I wonder why you link it.

I understand what confuses you. Sex, lust, desire are all parts of our being. When we see an attractive person, we release a hormone into our body that attracts us to that person in a sexual way. It lowers our inhibitions. Lust is part of who we are. We do this visually, there are many studies that prove when a woman is ovulating men think her more attractive and a woman will be more sexually aroused when ovulating.

Once through puberty, single or married, women every our weeks. Men all the time.

Other animals are only aroused when the female ovulates, some choose one partner for life. Some have many partners, some only the dominant male mates.

Yet a book written by men, goes against the way we are made. So god made us like this and wants to torment us, or men wrote it in.

 

[paulm50]

No, I think what he's meaning is that brain injuries remove the safe guards of rational and reasonable thought that were placed there in order to protect the mind from evil, but if those safe guards are physically removed, evil has easy access into the mind. This is also why the brain was designed to be able to heal itself, but it takes will power and understanding of how the brain works in order to effectively heal the brain or an act of God.

Evil has no use for a damaged brain. If he is talking about people who do evil things, it depends on the level of evil.

Most psychopaths are trained from their environment and experiences.

The amount of healing a brain can do is linked to the amount of healing the rest of our body can achieve. Can we teach someone that something they thought was right is wrong? Yes, but that's training not healing.

You do realize the brain is the most powerful tool that we know of within this universe, however the brain has no power to perceive what is outside the universe, but somehow this doesn't limit humans from being able to perceive, in a limited way, what's outside the universe, why do you think that is?

Then why tell people "this is all you need to know" and don't look for anymore answers?
Actually we do have the power to perceive what's outside the universe, and some are trying right now to do that. And others claim they already know the answer and tell us.

Popes, at a time when they were the head of the only Christian Church, were very good at deciding what we needed to know and not need to know. That's the same as people today denying evolution and saying Creation is all you need to know.

How does anyone know anything via faith? They don't they learn from finding the answers. For themselves.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, I think what he's meaning is that brain injuries remove the safe guards of rational and reasonable thought that were placed there in order to protect the mind from evil, but if those safe guards are physically removed, evil has easy access into the mind. This is also why the brain was designed to be able to heal itself, but it takes will power and understanding of how the brain works in order to effectively heal the brain or an act of God.

You do realize the brain is the most powerful tool that we know of within this universe, however the brain has no power to perceive what is outside the universe, but somehow this doesn't limit humans from being able to perceive, in a limited way, what's outside the universe, why do you think that is?

I don't think we are able to perceive "what's outside the universe." I know many people claim to be able to do that, and they often disagree about what they're "perceiving," sometimes to the point of violence.

 

[Chriliman]

Evil has no use for a damaged brain. If he is talking about people who do evil things, it depends on the level of evil.

Most psychopaths are trained from their environment and experiences.

The amount of healing a brain can do is linked to the amount of healing the rest of our body can achieve. Can we teach someone that something they thought was right is wrong? Yes, but that's training not healing.
Then why tell people "this is all you need to know" and don't look for anymore answers?
Actually we do have the power to perceive what's outside the universe, and some are trying right now to do that. And others claim they already know the answer and tell us.

Popes, at a time when they were the head of the only Christian Church, were very good at deciding what we needed to know and not need to know. That's the same as people today denying evolution and saying Creation is all you need to know.

How does anyone know anything via faith? They don't they learn from finding the answers. For themselves.

You are very confusing. Sometimes you act as if God can't possibly exist and if He does then He's evil and other times you use God to support your argument.

Luke 11:18
"If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand?"

If your going to use God or the Bible to support your argument, I'd strongly suggest taking everything God and the Bible says very seriously.

 

[com7fy8]

Are you suggesting that brain injuries and diseases reveal a person's "real" character? If that's what you're saying, then it is deeply controversial. So if someone who is kind and gentle becomes cruel and aggressive after a brain injury, you want to claim that this is who they always were?

I'm saying that a person's real character can show when a person is injured. Or, a person can keep on putting on the act which has always not shown how the person's real nature is. Each person is different, how things work for each one.

Ones can put on an act, then be very different after things happen to them; if certain brain-injured people are trouble people who pretend to be nice, they might forget to put on that act, or decide it is not worth the effort, any more, and then act like they are trouble; each person is unique, about how each one will respond to things and changes. This is what I understand.

Our character has to do with how we really are, and this includes how we can react when things go against us. I think you might know of certain people who were acting very nice, but then something happened and they changed a lot in a way not good for them. This to me would mean my character was not strong in God's love. There are people who act nice, in order to get others to accept them so they can have what they want. This can be a very weak way of loving, and it can keep a person weak enough to go through major emotional reactions to changes in their bodies and surroundings. This is what I consider, and I apply this to myself.

By the way, the person might be nasty before the injury, but then just act nice because of being in a captive situation. In such a case, the injury would not necessarily be revealing the person's real character. But someone who knows the person might see that the person is acting nice because of being controlled, and not wanting to get in trouble with the people in charge; the person might be known to act like a whimperer when someone else has the power.

But, also, when certain people have a trouble, they might wake up and realize they should not take life for granted, and then they might really mean to be kind.

So, like I say . . . as a general statement . . . each person is unique in how each one might react and change or not change after an injury.

 

[com7fy8]

I mean that we humans are not only physical. And I do not think the study of physical science can prove what is nonphysical.

Well then how would you prove that?

I don't think I could. I suppose God could; but He knows what is true, and if He really has shown me things like this, I simply trust Him. Also, I have seen how people can react to their physical surroundings being changed; and it can look like their personalities have changed. But they can be reacting according to how they always have been able to react. But can I prove this? I understand that each person is so unique, that you could not get a proper test set up, with the controls that science would require.

But I mean that we humans have our deeper nature which is spiritual . . . nonphysical

What does it even mean to have a non-physical nature? And how would you establish that this is the truth?

I understand that a non-physical nature is at the spiritual level of being . . . God being spiritual and demons being of a different kind of spiritual being. Can I define this for someone who does not experience spiritual things to exist? All I could offer is a spiritual being is not material in existence but is conscious and has power to do things with physical things, including effecting the human body in ways a doctor can't figure out. And can I prove this to someone who uses only physical evidence? I don't think so. I just offer that people do not act in a predictable way because there are invisible spiritual beings who effect us and how we do things. And the complexity of even physical things is more than humans can figure out from science, because the ways of spiritual beings are effecting physical things in ways too complicated for humans to understand.

I myself can't figure out how God is doing things; but I offer myself to Him, for Him to do what He pleases with me

And the Bible does say, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritially discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm saying that a person's real character can show when a person is injured. Or, a person can keep on putting on the act which has always not shown how the person's real nature is. Each person is different, how things work for each one.

Then you are wrong. The disease doesn't "unmask" a person's "real" personality. The disease may change their personality. It's not that they were always like that and just managed to hide it very well; it's that their personality has changed as a result of disease or injury.

Ones can put on an act, then be very different after things happen to them; if certain brain-injured people are trouble people who pretend to be nice, they might forget to put on that act, or decide it is not worth the effort, any more, and then act like they are trouble; each person is unique, about how each one will respond to things and changes. This is what I understand.

Our character has to do with how we really are, and this includes how we can react when things go against us. I think you might know of certain people who were acting very nice, but then something happened and they changed a lot in a way not good for them. This to me would mean my character was not strong in God's love. There are people who act nice, in order to get others to accept them so they can have what they want. This can be a very weak way of loving, and it can keep a person weak enough to go through major emotional reactions to changes in their bodies and surroundings. This is what I consider, and I apply this to myself.

By the way, the person might be nasty before the injury, but then just act nice because of being in a captive situation. In such a case, the injury would not necessarily be revealing the person's real character. But someone who knows the person might see that the person is acting nice because of being controlled, and not wanting to get in trouble with the people in charge; the person might be known to act like a whimperer when someone else has the power.

This is a very prejudiced view against those who suffer from brain injury or disease. In essence, you are claiming that they were never really nice; they were just pretending to be and now they're not.

 

[com7fy8]

There can be pleasure, but it needs to be at the right time, in the right way. There are many things which can have pleasure, but they can kill you, right away, at the wrong time and place. "And even if there is no obvious danger, still seeking the pleasure can have you missing out on love."

Would that be determined by the way out body is made, or the way the book tells us to?

The way our body is made can decide what we are able to feel for pleasure and what we can do to get it. But even if I can do something, this does not mean it would be good. So, I pray for God to guide me . . . for the sake, first, of being with Him and pleasing Him. And I experience that I do best by investing in learning how to love, instead of investing a lot in entertainment.

Loving does me more good, and it is better than physical pleasures that I have known. I mean that God's love does me more good while I am with Him and being personally sharing with and interested in any and all people. His love makes me "automatically" deeply satisfied and even feeling good, better than any physical entertainment ever has made me feel > this is my personal experience. But my satisfaction is not only from feeling good, but moreso being personal with God and people is better than just how I feel. I can't explain, I think, what I mean by "personal" being better than only feeling good. But love is personal, not distant, and the intimacy in me is better than physical.

There is connection, with God. And the book does say, "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If you read the verse before this, I think we can agree this is comparing spiritual intimacy with sexual intimacy and saying it is better to be one with God. He made sex; so He's better But this is not merely better in pleasure. Being personal with God and people in love is something I maybe can't explain, but it is better than only lust for physical pleasure, I keep finding.

While I am in God's love I have almighty immunity against negative and degrading stuff; so while I am busy in loving > when things and people go against me, love keeps me sweet and gentle and pleasant and reacting creatively; but in lust stuff, my first reacting to things changing on me is how I can go through changes that are degrading, and the lust is degrading, anyway, by not being in the quality of love.

And, in order to do lust stuff, we can have to protect our activity, in order to make it work; we might need to isolate ourselves, somehow. But God's love is good anywhere, any time >

"You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies" (in Psalm 23:5)

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

This is what I experience, and the book says things which match with this, I am finding. There are things I get in the book, first, then I experience; other times, I might get an understanding from seeing what I see, and then think of or find it in the book.

I test by seeking to be with God in His peace, then see what I discover myself doing by staying in peace with Him >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

If I go with lust, I find myself getting less and less quality of peace, though there can be pleasure of different sorts. It can feel pretty spectacular, but it's not like His peace. And in loving people, the quality of goodness in me is obviously better than what is in lust which is not good and is degrading; and when I get into some hang-up while trying to do lust stuff, I am in weakness to give in to frustration and other nasty and negative stuff . . . not being able to take no for an answer sweetly and creatively, like I can when love and peace are taking care of me

Weakness for pleasure can multi-task as weakness for pain.

So, I'm talking what has been spiritual experience with the book as escort, like a driver's manual > if you have only the manual and you never have experienced a car, at all, the book "may" not make sense.