How does one know anything via faith?

[quatona]

If you don't cliam to know that God does not exist then you're uncertain whether or not he exists. Isn't this then agnostic?

I don´t believe that a God exists. (Call it what you want it, but that´s what usually is called "atheist"). I don´t know whether a God exists (call it what you want it, but that´s what usually is called "agnostic").
So spare me these semantics games, please. (We see this "But then you are not a..., but then you are...." daily here - practically each time a strawman has been burnt). You have my statements - there´s no need to get hung up on discussing labels.

And if your uncertain you then choose to assume God does not exist, correct?

No. Just read the statements, let them sink in. They are simple. Don´t try to inflate them by adding pompousness.

But the concept of God as an infinite timeless being makes sense,

This is your chance to demonstrate that it makes sense.
Ex-negativo definitions (which merely replace "I have no clue" with sound bites that appear to be somewhat philosophical) won´t do the trick.

 

[The Cadet]

If you don't cliam to know that God does not exist then you're uncertain whether or not he exists. Isn't this then agnostic?

Depends on how you define your terms. In modern parlance, atheism is defined predominately by a lack of belief in gods; if you do not believe in a god, you are an atheist. It doesn't matter if you believe that god doesn't exist, or simply don't know if that god exists, if you can't say "I believe a god exists", congratulations, you are an atheist.

 

[Chriliman]

Depends on how you define your terms. In modern parlance, atheism is defined predominately by a lack of belief in gods; if you do not believe in a god, you are an atheist. It doesn't matter if you believe that god doesn't exist, or simply don't know if that god exists, if you can't say "I believe a god exists", congratulations, you are an atheist.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me. You don't believe in God because there is no physical evidence for God, yet there will never be physical evidence to prove how the universe came to be. So no matter what concept humans think of to explain how the universe came to be, it will never be provable by humans. So to wait for physical evidence, seems irrational when you really think about it. This is why I believe its more rational to be open to non-physical evidence and so far the best place to find non-physical evidence that makes sense is to ask God. Therefore, based on what we know so far about the limits of our human knowledge, it is rational to believe in God.

 

[Chriliman]

Answering a mystery with another mystery is pointless. The only rational option to take in the face of a mystery is to question and declare one does not know until the mystery clears up decently.

I think the unprovable concept of the Christian god makes no sense and, in many of its orthodox forms, contradicts itself. Does this mean I can ignore the classical Christian god now?

Also, I'm still find it funny how you vehemently deny you make assumptions in one thread, then pretty much declare you make assumptions in another.

How am I making assumptions? I'm trying to assess whats most reasonable to believe when considering unprovable concepts. So far the concept of God makes more sense than the other modern concepts, because those concepts contradict.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me. You don't believe in God because there is no physical evidence for God, yet there will never be physical evidence to prove how the universe came to be. So no matter what concept humans think of to explain how the universe came to be, it will never be provable by humans. So to wait for physical evidence, seems irrational when you really think about it.

To withhold belief until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief seems irrational to you?

This is why I believe its more rational to be open to non-physical evidence and so far the best place to find non-physical evidence that makes sense is to ask God. Therefore, based on what we know so far about the limits of our human knowledge, it is rational to believe in God.

This is an argument from ignorance, which is a fallacy.

 

[Chriliman]

To withhold belief until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief seems irrational to you?

The question is how long will you withhold belief? Will you decide to stop withholding belief when an unprovable concept just makes too much sense to deny the truth of it? Or will you continue to withhold belief even if the unprovable concept makes perfect sense?

This is an argument from ignorance, which is a fallacy.

Your ignoring the possibility that all empirical evidence will inevitably point to God.

 

[The Cadet]

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me. You don't believe in God because there is no physical evidence for God, yet there will never be physical evidence to prove how the universe came to be. So no matter what concept humans think of to explain how the universe came to be, it will never be provable by humans. So to wait for physical evidence, seems irrational when you really think about it. This is why I believe its more rational to be open to non-physical evidence and so far the best place to find non-physical evidence that makes sense is to ask God. Therefore, based on what we know so far about the limits of our human knowledge, it is rational to believe in God.

What is "non-physical evidence"? What does "non-physical" even mean in this context? If we're trying to establish whether or not God exists (as stated, I don't see any reason to believe he/she/it does), asking God for anything seems like a rather fruitless task.

As said, I don't know what the cause of the universe is. I don't even know if "what caused the universe" is a valid question, or even a coherent one - it might be like asking "what came before the beginning of time". But "I don't know" is an impetus to search for an answer. It is not an impetus to simply accept any given answer with no good reason. I don't understand why "God did it" should be treated as a default answer, rather than another possible answer that requires valid justification.

 

[The Cadet]

The question is how long will you withhold belief?

I will withhold belief until the evidence available justifies my belief. Doing anything else would be irrational in the extreme.

 

[Chriliman]

I will withhold belief until the evidence available justifies my belief. Doing anything else would be irrational in the extreme.

Have you ever really thought about what it means to withhold belief? To believe something means you accept something as true or that it exists. So in regards to how the universe came to be, your claiming to not know how it came to be and this is fine. Except that claiming to not know does nothing to solve the problem, so one must ask questions in order to find an answer. However, before you can even ask a question about the origins of the universe you must first accept the truth that the universe exists.

So before you can ask a question about the universe you must believe the universe exists. Do you follow my reasoning? Now the very fact that the universe exists, begs the question, why does it exist? But any reason we can come up with for its existence will require belief. So it is most reasonable to believe the reason that makes the most sense and I'm just saying the reason that makes the most sense is God. But not just any God, an infinitely timeless God who created us and loved us so much He paid a price to keep us from being destroyed by His righteous judgement and the only God to ever describe himself in this way is God of the Holy Bible.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Honestly, can you think of a better way to describe timelessness that could be understood by a multitude of generations of people?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The question is how long will you withhold belief? Will you decide to stop withholding belief when an unprovable concept just makes too much sense to deny the truth of it? Or will you continue to withhold belief even if the unprovable concept makes perfect sense?

I already answered that: "until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief."

Your ignoring the possibility that all empirical evidence will inevitably point to God.

I'm not ignoring or discounting that possibility at all.

 

[Chriliman]

I already answered that: "until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief."

I'm not ignoring or discounting that possibility at all.

Good, I'm glad to hear that, this is why I have hope for you

God bless!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Have you ever really thought about what it means to withhold belief? To believe something means you accept something as true or that it exists. So in regards to how the universe came to be, your claiming to not know how it came to be and this is fine. Except that claiming to not know does nothing to solve the problem, so one must ask questions in order to find an answer. However, before you can even ask a question about the origins of the universe you must first accept the truth that the universe exists.

So before you can ask a question about the universe you must believe the universe exists. Do you follow my reasoning? Now the very fact that the universe exists, begs the question, why does it exist? But any reason we can come up with for its existence will require belief. So it is most reasonable to believe the reason that makes the most sense and I'm just saying the reason that makes the most sense is God.

You keep saying that, but you always stop short of actually showing that this answer makes any sense of the origins of the universe.

But not just any God, an infinitely timeless God who created us and loved us so much He paid a price to keep us from being destroyed by His righteous judgement and the only God to ever describe himself in this way is God of the Holy Bible.

So you've leapt from a question on which we are still profoundly ignorant to "Goddidit," and now from "Goddidit" to Christianity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Good, I'm glad to hear that, this is why I have hope for you

God bless!

You never did answer my question: to withhold belief until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief seems irrational to you?

 

[Freodin]

Have you ever really thought about what it means to withhold belief? To believe something means you accept something as true or that it exists. So in regards to how the universe came to be, your claiming to not know how it came to be and this is fine. Except that claiming to not know does nothing to solve the problem, so one must ask questions in order to find an answer. However, before you can even ask a question about the origins of the universe you must first accept the truth that the universe exists.

So before you can ask a question about the universe you must believe the universe exists. Do you follow my reasoning? Now the very fact that the universe exists, begs the question, why does it exist? But any reason we can come up with for its existence will require belief. So it is most reasonable to believe the reason that makes the most sense and I'm just saying the reason that makes the most sense is God. But not just any God, an infinitely timeless God who created us and loved us so much He paid a price to keep us from being destroyed by His righteous judgement and the only God to ever describe himself in this way is God of the Holy Bible.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Honestly, can you think of a better way to describe timelessness that could be understood by a multitude of generations of people?

I most strongly disagree. "God" does not make the most sense. A "infinitly timeless God who created us and loved us so much He paid a price to keep us from being destroyed by His righteous judgement" makes even less sense that a general "God".
These concepts, especially this explicitly "God of the Holy Bible" one is described with and based on concepts that rely on the existence of the universe, and especially the human world and worldview. They don't make sense at all without them. In parts, they would contradict the existence of an "infinitly timeless God".

How can such a concept "make sense"?

 

[Chriliman]

You never did answer my question: to withhold belief until there is evidence sufficient to warrant belief seems irrational to you?

Depends on the evidence. There's evidence that the universe exists, which causes us to ask why it exists. One could consider me evidence that God exists and that would be enough for them to question why God exists. Apparently that's not enough evidence for you and thats fine, I'm just not sure what kind of evidence your expecting, if your expecting physical evidence, well I'm the best your going to find(maybe not the best), unless God himself decides to show up on your door step, but why would he when he has me and millions of others doing his will for him?

All He wants us to do is honestly think about why we're all here and come to a humble place in life and if we do that we'll find the answer or rather the answer will be able to find us. The answer is Jesus. Notice how I keep coming back to Jesus? This is what you'll hear from any true Christian, Jesus is the only thing that really matters to us in this life because we know this earthly life is temporary and what waits is eternal life and thats when we'll truly live like we were meant to live. This is what I want for you as well and I believe the fact that I've been talking with you gives me hope that you'll find the truth.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Depends on the evidence. There's evidence that the universe exists, which causes us to ask why it exists. One could consider me evidence that God exists and that would be enough for them to question why God exists. Apparently that's not enough evidence for you and thats fine, I'm just not sure what kind of evidence your expecting, if your expecting physical evidence, well I'm the best your going to find(maybe not the best), unless God himself decides to show up on your door step, but why would he when he has me and millions of others doing his will for him?

All He wants us to do is honestly think about why we're all here and come to a humble place in life and if we do that we'll find the answer or rather the answer will be able to find us. The answer is Jesus. Notice how I keep coming back to Jesus? This is what you'll hear from any true Christian, Jesus is the only thing that really matters to us in this life because we know this earthly life is temporary and what waits is eternal life and thats when we'll truly live like we were meant to live. This is what I want for you as well and I believe the fact that I've been talking with you gives me hope that you'll find the truth.

You still haven't answered my question.

 

[Chriliman]

You still haven't answered my question.

I did answer it by saying you'll choose to believe whatever evidence you find sufficient to believe in. I've found evidence sufficient for me to believe in God and I believe you will too. Its not surprising that you don't believe in God, since you haven't found sufficient evidence to believe in God, but I believe you will in time. This means its likely that other people in your life will provide the evidence, its up to you to believe it.

 

[Freodin]

A God who has sacrificed His own son for you, is a loving God, what more do you need?

That makes no sense. Explain how you think it does, considering an "infinitly timeless God".

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I did answer it by saying you'll choose to believe whatever evidence you find sufficient to believe in. I've found evidence sufficient for me to believe in God and I believe you will too. Its not surprising that you don't believe in God, since you haven't found sufficient evidence to believe in God, but I believe you will in time. This means its likely that other people in your life will provide the evidence, its up to you to believe it.

In case it's not already known to you, I was a Christian.

 

[Chriliman]

In case it's not already known to you, I was a Christian.

I knew that about you, but the question is, did you truly believe that you were nothing without Jesus because this is the mark of a true Christian. Someone who literally believes that without Jesus there to save them and guide them, they would be lost forever. I firmly believe God is trying to draw you back to himself and I pray you'll let Him, He will forgive you for falling away, you just have to accept His forgiveness through the power of Christ.