How does one come to believe something?

[Ana the Ist]

The reason that Christianity is a Faith is because logic is but tinker-toys in its scope.

The Mystery of the Faith, which is God incarnate within you, is ENTERED...

IF, as so many Protestants attempt to do, one tries to PROVE this Faith logically...
One will utterly fail, for logic cannot hold it - Logic is hopelessly inadequate...
One is entering into the Genesis of the Source of logical reasoning...
Logic is ABOUT material reality...
Christianity is entry into the Source of ALL reality...

This is why the epistemological pre-requisite for knowing God
is not logically systemic, but is repentance from evil
and is the wholehearted embracing of all that is loving and good.
The path to God is very much a quest with all manner of hazards...
It is not for the faint of heart, but for the utterly bold...
Yet the battles are fought in lowliness of heart...
Because they center around denial of self...
And the turning to God...

So that in this overcoming of the dependence of self on the world...
Which is the meaning of self-denial...
The results show forth unimaginably...
Because such lives move in great love and joy...
And in utter fearlessness of material opposition...

In the philosophic annals, Thomas Aquinas had one encounter with God...
He stopped writing and teaching...
The greatest logic-master of scholasticism of the middle ages...
And he said: "Everything I have written is straw..."

When I read this as a philosophy student some 50 years ago...
At a time when I was an Ayn Rand Objectivist atheist college student...
I was staggered - I recognized a truth I did not have a way of knowing...
That quest, not in the Faith but in the world...
Culminated some 12 years later...

Honesty is not exactly an option for me...
I love the truth above all else...
I hate lies...
I have paid the dues...
I will continue to do so...

So God Bless You "Ana the Ist"...
My atheist friend...
May you walk in Joy...
And never blink!

Arsenios

Thanks for the reply...

When one strips away the esoteric knowledge gambit from your post...a couple parts stick out...

"I was staggered - I recognized a truth I did not have a way of knowing..."

This is nonsensical...it makes no sense. Either you know something, or you don't. In this case, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

And this part...

"Logic is hopelessly inadequate..."

Is actually a statement I would agree with. I think it necessarily takes a lot of imagination to hold your beliefs.

 

[bhsmte]

No, it is a strange and sad paradox. They seem to need to come here to talk, but standing behind their own demands and limitations, then don't actually allow themselves to open up.

Judging by the content of your posts, i get the feeling your definition of 'opening up' really means, seeing things your way.

As i have stated, i was a christian most of my life and i had to open up to accept new knowledge i acquired over time and come to the personal realization, that i was wrong in my belief.

To each's own.

 

[ScottA]

Judging by the content of your posts, i get the feeling your definition of 'opening up' really means, seeing things your way.

As i have stated, i was a christian most of my life and i had to open up to accept new knowledge i acquired over time and come to the personal realization, that i was wrong in my belief.

To each's own.

None of that attributes truth to truth...and it is not "my way" that I have suggested that all people be open to, but simply to the truth.

So, then, seeing a road block keeping you from the truth, I have told you of it - not because I have an opinion, but because I have a vantage point you have never had, even when immersed in it.

I have seen the answer key...should I not share it with those who have not?

 

[bhsmte]

None of that attributes truth to truth...and it is not "my way" that I have suggested that all people be open to, but simply to the truth.

So, then, seeing a road block keeping you from the truth, I have told you of it - not because I have an opinion, but because I have a vantage point you have never had, even when immersed in it.

I have seen the answer key...should I not share it with those who have not?

Then you would have to demonstrate, you can support your version of truth, with more than just preaching and or opinion.

 

[Freodin]

I have seen the answer key...should I not share it with those who have not?

Even if, as you admitted, you are completely unable to share it?

What was it you said... ah yes... that:

... we have our proof already - which cannot be shared, except in words.

You have no proof to share. You have no information that one can follow to share. It is as bhsmte said: all you can offer is "come and see things my way".

This is the main thing why I doubt your tale: for all your claims of having "the answer"... you are completely oblivious to the basic factors of communication.

 

[ScottA]

Then you would have to demonstrate, you can support your version of truth, with more than just preaching and or opinion.

It would seem so. But if that were not applicable in this very exceptional situation, then I should tell you, and I have. And if I do so, but you do not listen because you cannot operate within the limits of the subject, but only within the limits that you have allowed yourself - it doesn't change anything of what is true or not. Nor does it mean I have to do anything. I don't.

No - what this particular topic calls for is a willingness to go where you have never been...which your own scientific and worldly form of logic does all the time. But it only does so internally, and that is not the nature of this discussion. If you then say that you are indeed willing...I then must continue the logic from this side of the equation and inform you that, that is not enough...which I have. And if and when you can take that line of thinking seriously, in all truth (not just your own), I would have to tell you that in order to go on, you must die...and I have.

But you have not come, even though you have been invited.

 

[bhsmte]

It would seem so. But if that were not applicable in this very exceptional situation, then I should tell you, and I have. And if I do so, but you do not listen because you cannot operate within the limits of the subject, but only within the limits that you have allowed yourself - it doesn't change anything of what is true or not. Nor does it mean I have to do anything. I don't.

No - what this particular topic calls for is a willingness to go where you have never been...which your own scientific and worldly form of logic does all the time. But it only does so internally, and that is not the nature of this discussion. If you then say that you are indeed willing...I then must continue the logic from this side of the equation and inform you that, that is not enough...which I have. And if and when you can take that line of thinking seriously, in all truth (not just your own), I would have to tell you that in order to go on, you must die...and I have.

But you have not come, even though you have been invited.

I dont find the content of your posts to be very convincing.

 

[Arsenios]

Thanks for the reply...

Back at you!

When one strips away the esoteric knowledge gambit from your post...

This procedure of 'stripping away' is self-limiting... The fact is, there ARE encounters men and women have with the world beyond the physical, some divine, some demonical... Philosophy enters into this world first with epistemology, which addresses issues of knowing the physical, and through that, knowing what to do about it [ethics]... And then goes on to address aesthetics, the emotional meaning of the known physical to man in it... There are huge mysteries moving throughout all these regions of understanding...

a couple parts stick out...

"I was staggered - I recognized a truth I did not have a way of knowing..."

Did I write that??

This is nonsensical...it makes no sense.

When God in my encounter with Him revealed Himself AS God, the following happened:

In inner words I said to myself: "THIS changes EVERY thing..." And in my soul and understanding, everything turned inside out, upside down, and backwards. It has remained that way in a radiance of Joy and clarity of perception for some 36 years now and counting, and it only continues to get better and better. THAT event was HOW I personally came to belief in God, and it really is not belief, but the Truth...

Either you know something, or you don't. In this case, I'm inclined to believe the latter.

You only know, in this assessment, the epistemelogical duality of knowledge, where you, the subject, know this or that, the object of knowledge, and in a given context, a given statement is either true or not... There is another level of knowing that is analogized by the knowing of a wife by her husband, but is in fact entirely beyond that, which is the identity of the knower with the known. Knowledge of God is in that category, and because the uncreated God is known by the created man, the knowledge attained is exhaustive of the man, and entirely not exhaustive of God...

And this part...

"Logic is hopelessly inadequate..."

Now you know why...

Is actually a statement I would agree with.
I think it necessarily takes a lot of imagination to hold your beliefs.

In your understanding, it can ONLY be in the imagination...

In Christian understanding, no imagination is involved...
Nor are words...
Nor thoughts...
Nor feelings...

It is a whole 'nother level of reality that controls the tiny slice in which we have our being...

It is the reality of ongoing creation apprehended by the nous of man which now, in its fallenness in creation, is scattered among the cares of our death-filled physical existence... Where all die...


Arsenios

 

[ScottA]

Even if, as you admitted, you are completely unable to share it?

What was it you said... ah yes... that:


You have no proof to share. You have no information that one can follow to share. It is as bhsmte said: all you can offer is "come and see things my way".

This is the main thing why I doubt your tale: for all your claims of having "the answer"... you are completely oblivious to the basic factors of communication.

Not true - we have plenty to "share", and the only obstacle is your demand of unrelated "proof." Which means, you are not at all "following."

What we have to offer, is rather: "We have something you're going to want, even if you don't know it yet - your just going to die when you see it! But we can only tell you about it and can offer you no proof, you will have to make the step on your own."

 

[ScottA]

I dont find the content of your posts to be very convincing.

Perhaps that makes me no artist, but it's not about me. You can leave me completely out of it.

Nonetheless, the prospects are simple: Before every person is the choice of Life or Death.

 

[bhsmte]

Perhaps that makes me no artist, but it's not about me. You can leave me completely out of it.

Nonetheless, the prospects are simple: Before every person is the choice of Life or Death.

Demonstrate the difference between these choices, with something other than preaching or personal opinion.

 

[Freodin]

Not true - we have plenty to "share", and the only obstacle is your demand of unrelated "proof." Which means, you are not at all "following."

Following? Following what? Following where? This is exactly what bshmte was talking about. "Just follow what I say. Just accept what I say."

But you don't lead. You cannot.

What we have to offer, is rather: "We have something you're going to want, even if you don't know it yet - your just going to die when you see it! But we can only tell you about it and can offer you no proof, you will have to make the step on your own."

What step? As I said: "You have no information that one can follow."

 

[ScottA]

Demonstrate the difference between these choices, with something other than preaching or personal opinion.

Sorry, no preaching, no opinion, but, I have explained all that: It may not be the demonstration you would like, but all the universe is that demonstration - you are living it...the end of which is life or death.

 

[ScottA]

Following? Following what? Following where? This is exactly what bshmte was talking about. "Just follow what I say. Just accept what I say."

But you don't lead. You cannot.

What step? As I said: "You have no information that one can follow."

"Follow" is the word you used to indicate that you were not comprehending what it is that we have been saying, and therefore have determined that we have nothing to "share" (my word).

But - I get your point...and you are correct to say that we "do not lead." We are rather, fellow travelers on this part of the journey of life (who just happen to have information on what is ahead over the next hill). Similar to the traveler analogy, you can indeed be misdirected, and the information you get may or may not be accurate...in which case, you either follow, stop, or venture on alone. Completely your choice.

But, make no mistake...we are not selling anything. We have nothing to gain or to loose...that is why I refer to what we are doing simply as "sharing."

 

[ScottA]

What step? As I said: "You have no information that one can follow."

As for the "next step"... We are like worms who can live and die as a worm (only), or go on to be a butterfly. Likewise, the next step - is to stop being a worm, to enter into the cocoon that separates us from the world, and to grow a pair of wings. The worm must die to itself, and the old way of the worm.

To elaborate the analogy, we have been speaking to you from within our own cocoons...wherein there is no question of reality, except that you cannot see it as we can from our more advance state - which is not to say we are better, just further along.

 

[Freodin]

As for the "next step"... We are like worms who can live and die as a worm (only), or go on to be a butterfly. Likewise, the next step - is to stop being a worm, to enter into the cocoon that separates us from the world, and to grow a pair of wings. The worm must die to itself, and the old way of the worm.

To elaborate the analogy, we have been speaking to you from within our own cocoons...wherein there is no question of reality, except that you cannot see it as we can from our more advance state - which is not to say we are better, just further along.

As I said: you don't have any informations that one can follow.

We can go on to be a butterfly? How? How do you stop being a worm? How do you "die to the old way of the worm"?

Analogies. Analogies are a dozen the dime... and they tell you everything and nothing.

You say that you see reality "from a more advanced state". You say that you have been "further along the road".

An analogy: a traveller who has been ahead over the next hill can explain the way for those who are following behind.

 

[bhsmte]

Sorry, no preaching, no opinion, but, I have explained all that: It may not be the demonstration you would like, but all the universe is that demonstration - you are living it...the end of which is life or death.

That demonstrates nothing, except more words on a page.

 

[ScottA]

As I said: you don't have any informations that one can follow.

We can go on to be a butterfly? How? How do you stop being a worm? How do you "die to the old way of the worm"?

Analogies. Analogies are a dozen the dime... and they tell you everything and nothing.

You say that you see reality "from a more advanced state". You say that you have been "further along the road".

An analogy: a traveller who has been ahead over the next hill can explain the way for those who are following behind.

Okay...I did explain. But you are not accustom to hearing such talk. "You must die." is a hard thing to understand, and since you have already rejected the idea - please try to understand that I am attempting to guide you across an unimaginable gulf. Bear with me.

We are natural beings with natural bodies. Like the worm that must leave the world behind and enter into its cocoon to go on, we too must propose to do something similar. It requires that we sacrifice everything we know and hold onto. Unlike the worm, however, we can be in both places - we can be in the world, but not be of the world...having advanced from being a natural being to also being a spiritual being. It requires that we are born again of the spirit of God. We are then two beings in one: one natural, and one spiritual...one that dies, and one that never dies.

To be born again of the spirit of God...we must come to terms with God, his terms, not ours. So, not only must we be sincerely willing to give up this [worm's] life, you will need to concede that God is the boss, and drop all your demands. Everyone who has been born again of the spirit of God has done this. Personally, life simply went a way of eliminating everything I identified with until I was at the end of myself with nowhere else to turn. But I could have said, No way, I don't believe there is a god, and just slithered into a final decline and perished. Having nothing to loose and everything to potentially gain - I did not give up, but gave in. My last words of my natural life at its end, were, "God...if... - because I had no clue, no proof, just rumors and hearsay: "God...if, you are there"...and so on...

That...is dying to one's self...and it is required - if - you want more out of life.

 

[ScottA]

That demonstrates nothing, except more words on a page.

Exactly. Such is life in the world.

 

[bhsmte]

Exactly. Such is life in the world.

No. Such is your posts.