How does one come to believe something?

[Wayne R.]

Obviously, my post was somewhat tongue in cheek, a reworking of Noah Sweat’s 1952 speech, “If by whisky . . .” But it does, in a certain respect, reflect my position. It also demonstrates how absurd it is to try to answer a question about how one feels about God without knowing the assumptions of the person asking the question.

I do not believe in God as he is typically described. The concept is so vague and undefined as to be incoherent, and I can’t wrap my head around an incoherent concept. It might be more accurate to say I don’t get to the point of believing or not believing because no one has clearly defined what I should be believing in. The idea remains indeterminate.

I know I am against pretty much everything the Old Testament God Yahweh seems to be about. That is a coherent concept and a very disturbing one at that. The character of Yahweh is a violent, brooding bully that tortures and kills people for petty reasons. There is nothing about this character I find respectable or inspiring.

It is difficult to reconcile this God with that of the New Testament, especially when we are told that God is timeless and unchanging. Nevertheless, to the extent people associate God, based upon the New Testament texts, with qualities I think of as positive, such as love and compassion for others, I can respect that. While I still may not believe in this God, this is at least a concept I can get behind.

The problem is that I rarely find anyone that can fully separate the two – one that can focus solely on the positive while renouncing the negative. Find me the church that openly renounces the God of the Old Testament, the horror of Hell, and the tribal teachings that marginalize those of different genders, races, and beliefs, and you will find a kindred spirit.

I hear you, and if people have your understanding of the Old Testament God and use that concept as excuse to subjugate, chaos will certainly result. The way I see it, the God of the New Testament is the example we are to follow and emulate, the One we see in the Old Testament is the One the Hitlers, Stalins and Popes of the Dark Ages should fear because they didn't. Here's the context I see: man was never intended to know evil (shame, hatred, fear, etc.), but man was given free will. When evil was introduced, man became intimate with both good and evil, but without the capacity to know which was which anymore than distinguishing black and white pigment in gray paint. Cain killed Able (first murder). God's intent that man not judge man because of this confusion prompted Him to warn recompense on anyone taking revenge on Cain. Lamech saw this and killed a man for a minor offence under the thinking, "if God protected Cain for killing an Innocent man He will protect me ten times over for killing for an offence." Chaos continued over time as man moved farther away from what God intended. Eventually Abraham appeared and established a relationship with God by simply believing Him and aligning with God's origonal intent, which serves as the example of what "faith" means. Later came the Law, the Ten Comandments, which were very simple and positive and with no curse in them. God promised to bless those who kept the Law and curse those who adopted "Lamech thinking". Author of "good and evil (chaos in the Hebrew)" literalliy means author of "blessing and cursing" in this sense. Also keep in mind the people around the Hebrews were burning their children alive and burying them in clay jars in the walls of their homes in worship of the "gods", litteraly the same one by different names, who destroyed man's pure thinking in the first place.
So, why Jesus and the New Testament? Man couldn't sort the message out in the Old Testament so Jesus came to demonstrate. He didn't judge the prostitutes, the rejected, He championed the widows and orphans, healed the sick, taught and demonstrated love to the extreme. Yet He called the religious leaders who used "position" to abuse authority and rob, condemn and abuse soins of Satan, blind leaders of the blind, whitewashed graves full of dead men's bones. I think it's interesting that judgement was pronounced on the Ciaphas the high priest millenia before with the passage, "the high priest shall not tear his clothes".
Obviously there many perspectives of scripture, what it means and what to do with it, but the people I know were going into Liberia when everyone else was running for their lives from the ebola outbreak. They're rebuilding Haiti, Congo, Liberia and now involved in Nepal. "Religion" isn't, in it's self bad, it can also be a motivator and restraint from "Lamech thinking".

 

[AllanV]

I asked, are your senses infallible?

The not infallible part is the mind. The senses send messages to the brain which converts them and then the mind makes sense of it all based on experience and probably something a little deeper.

There is some discussion whether or not the mind is in the head or extends beyond it.
Rupert Sheldrake http://www.sheldrake.org/ has taken a lot of time to explore the question.
If there is a mass consciousness and morphic field that would explain much.
There are many divergences in human endeavor that indicate the mind is not infallible. We have communism, capitalism, dictators, religions, geologists, physicists etc,
I once thought logic should bring the same conclusions but everyone applies their own method.
If a person does their learning under one predominant influence then the mass consciousness of that system could lock the mind into one bias. Of course there would be cross over points of agreement.

All evidence would be collected with a background of dominant indoctrination regardless. But it is actually stronger and deeper than the obvious. If a morphic field exists something like telepathy would act within the mind refusing to let it go down any other path.

All belief is a state of being captured by what ever has dominated it at some point in a persons life.

That is why the Bible states that we should believe in God and not in own self. The will needs to be one with God's will. Own will empowers self belief to get what it does and this can penetrate another subconscious. The true goal is love and the potential is immortality. This is had in a gentle nature that does not force mind connections.

Some http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/11/-sp-live-forever-extend-life-calico-google-longevity are investing a lot of money in an attempt to live longer or even for ever because the genetics and cellular function indicate this is possible. But then some say there is a case for genetic entropy and mutation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Sanford.

A more full belief in God should give the person a healthy long life because the only reason there is life is because it is given by God. Sin means to miss the mark or not measure up and brings with it what is seen every day.

 

[Wayne R.]

Does mainstream science need to be wrong for your beliefs to be true?

no
You have repeatedly been very noncommittal as to the question, "do you believe there was a beginning of the universe?" Was there?

 

[Wayne R.]

You might be interested in this.

http://io9.com/why-honeybees-are-a-strange-example-of-darwinian-evolut-1538074226

I'll look at it. Thank you.

 

[jonesdon]

I am politely asking you what you mean when saying "God", so that I know what it is you want to discuss with me (and which you apparently expect me to attack, once you have answered the question).

RESP: And, I keep telling you (and trying to stay polite), and the affirmed atheists, that it's the same God that has been w America since day one, the one that most Americans believe in -- like "In God we Trust", ya know? What is so difficult about this? BTW: You need to be reading my resps. to Davian, who seems to be your alter ego!

 

[Wayne R.]

= == RESP: NOPE! As I said, not until you answer my Qs. Meanwhile, not expecting any answers from you atheists, I'm moving on (see post #382). You need not resp. as you have not passed step 1 yet.

The concept reality is far different for the antitheist than for the Christian. How can a guppy in a fish bowl understand anything about a whale in the ocean? Never happen, waste of time attempting it, which is the objective I think. Guppies don't care about a whales' perspective, only that they're whales. I have to think they're afraid of them and would love to see them become guppies in a fish bowl.

 

[AllanV]

Regarding a "clean out", I used to think that but then I reflected more on something Jesus said about sifting the wheat from the chaff, or pulling up the weeds that choke the good seed. In pulling up the weeds, you will uproot the good seed. It is best to let the Father sift the wheat from the chaff at the end of the world. There have been occasions, though, when the Holy Spirit has "fallen" on a church congregation and the church has become aware of how it has sinned against God, and out of this there has been "refreshing" and "renewal".

I think that some of the newest divisions created in the Church is an expression of the Holy Spirit moving in the Church. There is a need for Christians to recognise that they must leave their particular denomination in order to obey God and join this new movement of the Holy Spirit. Sadly, many Christians are so set in their ways that they miss this new blessing. Yes, they remain true Christians and they will be blessed. However, at times God wants to bless his people with so much more, and people need to be in the right place at the right time in order to be able to receive that special blessing. But, God provides us with many opportunities throughout our walk.

Of course there is the scripture

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Faith can be diminished and comes by hearing hearing by the word of God.

Every one has self belief and this has attachments within the mind. Satan is in the mind and attached to the self and opposes Knowing God in the mind. God requests that we Know Him. The strength that is required to keep the emotions in operation is the realm of Satan and as each person interacts and talks he is being empowered. Stray thoughts and temptations as to what is said and done are an influence that everyone takes for granted as part of the personal make up. The Gospel is the good news of the Kingdom of God. It is about overcoming Satan and his hold on the mind.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

In a fast of three weeks every day was dedicated to turning my mind away from all memories of family, friends and events, only saying those things that were coming into my mind as revelation.
Faith was increasing and belief was deeper.
The way forward was only revealed from the new depth because the natural mind cannot comprehend being separated from own self. Knowing God is at a depth never contemplated in a rebellious nature.

To be brief, by breaking inwardly a new depth of gentleness was taken even further by the nature of Jesus and my mind was completely free of the personality traits that were taken for granted as unable to be escaped from. The power of God filled me entirely and this overflowed from within me. I was totally free. This new nature is so gentle that the usual mind could never find it with out supernatural assistance.

 

[Davian]

The not infallible part is the mind. The senses send messages to the brain which converts them and then the mind makes sense of it all based on experience and probably something a little deeper.

There is some discussion whether or not the mind is in the head or extends beyond it.
Rupert Sheldrake http://www.sheldrake.org/ has taken a lot of time to explore the question.
If there is a mass consciousness and morphic field that would explain much.
There are many divergences in human endeavor that indicate the mind is not infallible. We have communism, capitalism, dictators, religions, geologists, physicists etc,
I once thought logic should bring the same conclusions but everyone applies their own method.
If a person does their learning under one predominant influence then the mass consciousness of that system could lock the mind into one bias. Of course there would be cross over points of agreement.

All evidence would be collected with a background of dominant indoctrination regardless. But it is actually stronger and deeper than the obvious. If a morphic field exists something like telepathy would act within the mind refusing to let it go down any other path.

All belief is a state of being captured by what ever has dominated it at some point in a persons life.

That is why the Bible states that we should believe in God and not in own self. The will needs to be one with God's will. Own will empowers self belief to get what it does and this can penetrate another subconscious. The true goal is love and the potential is immortality. This is had in a gentle nature that does not force mind connections.

Some http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/11/-sp-live-forever-extend-life-calico-google-longevity are investing a lot of money in an attempt to live longer or even for ever because the genetics and cellular function indicate this is possible. But then some say there is a case for genetic entropy and mutation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Sanford.

A more full belief in God should give the person a healthy long life because the only reason there is life is because it is given by God. Sin means to miss the mark or not measure up and brings with it what is seen every day.

So your mind could be tricked, and these experiences that you alluded to could be unreliable, or outright wrong. How do you test that your resulting beliefs comport with reality?

 

[Davian]

no

Does that mean you accept mainstream science, such as the theory of evolution and the standard cosmological model?

You have repeatedly been very noncommittal as to the question, "do you believe there was a beginning of the universe?" Was there?

I do not have sufficiency information to have a belief either way. And, what I believe will not affect reality.

I have some coins in my pocket. Do you believe that the quantity is numerically odd or even?

 

[Davian]

The concept reality is far different for the antitheist than for the Christian. How can a guppy in a fish bowl understand anything about a whale in the ocean? Never happen, waste of time attempting it, which is the objective I think. Guppies don't care about a whales' perspective, only that they're whales. I have to think they're afraid of them and would love to see them become guppies in a fish bowl.

How can the guppy understand anything about a whale that is, by every objective measure to date, imaginary?

 

[Davian]

Of course there is the scripture

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Faith can be diminished and comes by hearing hearing by the word of God.

Every one has self belief and this has attachments within the mind. Satan is in the mind and attached to the self and opposes Knowing God in the mind. God requests that we Know Him. The strength that is required to keep the emotions in operation is the realm of Satan and as each person interacts and talks he is being empowered. Stray thoughts and temptations as to what is said and done are an influence that everyone takes for granted as part of the personal make up. The Gospel is the good news of the Kingdom of God. It is about overcoming Satan and his hold on the mind.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

In a fast of three weeks every day was dedicated to turning my mind away from all memories of family, friends and events, only saying those things that were coming into my mind as revelation.
Faith was increasing and belief was deeper.
The way forward was only revealed from the new depth because the natural mind cannot comprehend being separated from own self. Knowing God is at a depth never contemplated in a rebellious nature.

To be brief, by breaking inwardly a new depth of gentleness was taken even further by the nature of Jesus and my mind was completely free of the personality traits that were taken for granted as unable to be escaped from. The power of God filled me entirely and this overflowed from within me. I was totally free. This new nature is so gentle that the usual mind could never find it with out supernatural assistance.

How do you know that you did not simply imagined this?

 

[Chany]

My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about God. All right, here is how I feel about God.

If when you say God, you mean the bloodthirsty tyrant of Israel (Isaiah 34:2-7), the wrathful being who calls himself “jealousy” (Exodus 34:14), the source of all evil, anguish and misery (Amos 3:6; Lamentations 3:38; Isaiah 45: 6-7), the sender of evil spirits (Judges 9:23, Samuel 16:14, 18:10) who engages in deliberate deceit (Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11), the champion of war (1 Samuel 15:2-3), the enabler of rape (Exodus 21:2-7, 20-21; Leviticus 25:44-46; 2 Samuel 12:11-19; Numbers 31:32-35), and the murderer of children (Numbers 31:17-18), then certainly I am against him.

But if when you say God you mean the protector of the meek (Matthew 5:5), the voice of the outcasts (Luke 15:1-31), the champion of the poor and marginalized (Matthew 6:1), and the sponsor of peace and forgiveness (Matthew 5:9), then certainly I am for him.

This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.

Did you come up with this, or did you get it from someone else? It's a rip-off a political speech given by a lawmaker who was asked to speak on his stance about alcohol prohibition in his state. We talked about it in my English class one day because it is the perfect example of a person who say absolutely nothing but manages to rouse your heart, whatever side you are on.

"My friends,

"I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about whiskey. All right, here is how I feel about whiskey.

"If when you say whiskey you mean the devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster, that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, and despair, and shame and helplessness, and hopelessness, then certainly I am against it.

"But;

"If when you say whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips, and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman's step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy, and his happiness, and to forget, if only for a little while, life's great tragedies, and heartaches, and sorrows; if you mean that drink, the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars, which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitiful aged and infirm; to build highways and hospitals and schools, then certainly I am for it.

"This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise."

 

[quatona]

RESP: And, I keep telling you (and trying to stay polite), and the affirmed atheists, that it's the same God that has been w America since day one, the one that most Americans believe in -- like "In God we Trust", ya know? What is so difficult about this? BTW: You need to be reading my resps. to Davian, who seems to be your alter ego!

Yes, I already noticed that you are on the verge of losing your patience.
Now, it was you who came here asking a question. As far as I am concerned, until you can ask your question in a way that makes it meaningful to me, it will remain unanswered.
If doing so asks too much from your patience, we can simply put your question to rest and move on.

 

[lumberjohn]

Did you come up with this, or did you get it from someone else? It's a rip-off a political speech given by a lawmaker who was asked to speak on his stance about alcohol prohibition in his state. We talked about it in my English class one day because it is the perfect example of a person who say absolutely nothing but manages to rouse your heart, whatever side you are on.

I acknowledged my source, as well as my intent, in post #396. You might also want to look at the history of my exchanges with jonesdon to appreciate the context.

 

[lumberjohn]

RESP: And, I keep telling you (and trying to stay polite), and the affirmed atheists, that it's the same God that has been w America since day one, the one that most Americans believe in -- like "In God we Trust", ya know? What is so difficult about this?

You still seem to believe the atheists are engaging in sophistry. Let me try a different approach.

I don't know if you are genuinely unaware, or simply ignoring, the fact that Christians have wildly divergent views of God with very distinct consequences for debate and discussion. Many of these views are so idiosyncratic that they could not reasonably be anticipated.

My experience, which I strongly suspect is shared by many of the atheists on these forums, is that discussions of God with Christians can be frustrating unless there is initial agreement on at least the qualities the Christian associates with God. I might assume that you accept an anthropomorphic view of God, as represented through much of the Old Testament. Once I begin discussing my objections to this concept, you inform me that you don't buy into that view at all. I might then assume you are talking about a more transcendent God, but still one with the traditionally attributed qualities of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. As I begin discussing the logical contradictions in this approach, you again stop me to say that you don't hold this view either. You accuse me of constructing a strawman of your beliefs. At some point, in order to proceed, I simply must ask "So, what do you believe?" Why not just get that out of the way on the front end so we don't waste an enormous amount of time running down dead ends?

It is the Christian that makes the claim that a being exists for whom we do not have clear, unambiguous, intersubjectively verifiable evidence. It is the Christian that must define the parameters of that claim. It is the Christian that must clearly explain the qualities this God possesses, for it is only by analyzing those qualities that we can engage in reasoned debate.

 

[lumberjohn]

So, why Jesus and the New Testament? Man couldn't sort the message out in the Old Testament so Jesus came to demonstrate. He didn't judge the prostitutes, the rejected, He championed the widows and orphans, healed the sick, taught and demonstrated love to the extreme.

But couldn't God have foreseen all of this? Why would a timeless, all-knowing God have had to change his plan? How could he have possibly been surprised that "man couldn't sort the message out in the Old Testament?" Didn't God create man and draft the message? And how could God be surprised by anything?

 

[Wayne R.]

Of course there is the scripture

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Faith can be diminished and comes by hearing hearing by the word of God.

Every one has self belief and this has attachments within the mind. Satan is in the mind and attached to the self and opposes Knowing God in the mind. God requests that we Know Him. The strength that is required to keep the emotions in operation is the realm of Satan and as each person interacts and talks he is being empowered. Stray thoughts and temptations as to what is said and done are an influence that everyone takes for granted as part of the personal make up. The Gospel is the good news of the Kingdom of God. It is about overcoming Satan and his hold on the mind.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

In a fast of three weeks every day was dedicated to turning my mind away from all memories of family, friends and events, only saying those things that were coming into my mind as revelation.
Faith was increasing and belief was deeper.
The way forward was only revealed from the new depth because the natural mind cannot comprehend being separated from own self. Knowing God is at a depth never contemplated in a rebellious nature.

To be brief, by breaking inwardly a new depth of gentleness was taken even further by the nature of Jesus and my mind was completely free of the personality traits that were taken for granted as unable to be escaped from. The power of God filled me entirely and this overflowed from within me. I was totally free. This new nature is so gentle that the usual mind could never find it with out supernatural assistance.

"I will write My Laws (Ten Commandments) upon their hearts." Compare the event at Mt Sinai where the Laws were written on stone 50 days after the Passover, to the Pentecost event 50 days after the Passover of the New Testament. The first were written on stone as the Will of God, but there was no Spirit imparted. When Jesus sent out the disciples, "He breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit." At Pentecost the "Breath of God (spirit, wind & breath are the same word) filled the room. "I Will write My Laws upon their hearts."The only Laws inside the Covenant are the Ten Commandments, placed inside the Ark of The Covenant. The laws of Moses, the laws he said "I have written against you because of rebellion" were placed beside, OUTSIDE the Ark. Inside the Covenant, contained by the Holy Spirit, the simple Laws of love will be kept and there is no confusion about them or curse connected to them. They are, in fact statements of truth, "You will not commit murder." etc.

 

[Wayne R.]

How can the guppy understand anything about a whale that is, by every objective measure to date, imaginary?

It's only "imaginary" to the guppy. That's the whole point, you cannot reveal oceans and whales to a limited reality like a guppy in a fish bowl. The concept of reality so different, even denied. As soon as I say "supernatural" I spoken of the "ocean" and the "fish bowl concept" rejects it as non-existant. There can be no meaningfull discussion, and neither party will deny the reality they know.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's only "imaginary" to the guppy. That's the whole point, you cannot reveal oceans and whales to a limited reality like a guppy in a fish bowl. The concept of reality so different, even denied. As soon as I say "supernatural" I spoken of the "ocean" and the "fish bowl concept" rejects it as non-existant. There can be no meaningfull discussion, and neither party will deny the reality they know.

Not a very charitable analogy for us. Perhaps you're the guppy in the fish bowl?

 

[Wayne R.]

But couldn't God have foreseen all of this? Why would a timeless, all-knowing God have had to change his plan? How could he have possibly been surprised that "man couldn't sort the message out in the Old Testament?" Didn't God create man and draft the message? And how could God be surprised by anything?

You have some very good questions, questions I struggled with myself, but there are answers. It will take some writing and my daughter is coming from out of town for the weekend. If you can give me a couple of days I'll respond. But in short: God didn't create robots, He created man with free will. He didn't change His plan, He revealed it and changed man's. Who and what He is key and I'll share some thoughts when I have more time.