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How does one become a Theistic Evolutionist?

MattLangley

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I wonder how do you understand.

God wants us to understand that we may look (by all means) like beasts, but we are NOT beasts.

Right... so I guess Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 is either wrong or a lie then?

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

We are like animals, our fate is the same as animals, we have no advantage over the animals, and we all go the same place. Seems a lot more than "we may look (by all means) like beasts." Relating our existence, our fate, and our death and destination thereof to animals is a lot stronger than that, whether you want to face it or not.
 
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John 10:10

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Yours facts are right, but your conclusions are muddled. There is no particular scientific definition of fact, but one might say that it is a fact that light bends in the presence of a massive object. General Relativity is the theory that provides the explanatory framework for why and how much light bends because of gravity. The theory explains the facts, which is exactly what has been told to you repeatedly. Note also that it is still referred to as the General Theory of Relativity, not the fact of relativity or the law of relativity, even though its predictions have been confirmed with great accuracy. Theory is as good as it gets in science.

The situation is nearly identical with evolution. There are a large number of facts in biology: mutations occur, allele frequencies change over time, organisms show certain patterns of geographical, morphological and genetic similarities, etc. The theory of evolution (which is actually a set of theories) explains those facts. The theory is tested by its ability to explain existing facts, to predict new facts, and to guide researchers into fruitful areas of investigation. It does all of those things extremely well, which is why it is the backbone of biology and one of the great scientific achievements of all time.

I don't know where you get the idea (or the gall) to think that you should be the one to tell scientists what is good science and what isn't, when you don't know the facts and don't understand the theory. What standing do you have for making such a decision? Scientists accept and use evolution because it does the things scientific theories are supposed to do, and no other theory comes close to its ability.
I agree that theory is as good as it gets when it's the belief that life evolved from a single cell creature, but where do you get the right to say theory is as good as it get in science! Such bolderdash is exactly the reason why you can't see or understand what constitutes how true scientific facts are determined, and how they are used in everyday life. Scientists do not use unproven theories to do anything good or worthwhile, except to propagate the ToE which tells man he evolved from a cell to an ape, instead of being created fully human in the image of God.

I suggest you go to the EvC Forum. Your views will be very welcome and supported there.
 
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Dark_Lite

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I agree that theory is as good as it gets when it's the belief that life evolved from a single cell creature, but where do you get the right to say theory is as good as it get in science! Such bolderdash is exactly the reason why you can't see or understand what constitutes how true scientific facts are determined, and how they are used in everyday life. Scientists do not use unproven theories to do anything good or worthwhile, except to propagate the ToE which tells man he evolved from a cell to an ape, instead of being created fully human in the image of God.

I suggest you go to the EvC Forum. Your views will be very welcome and supported there.

Science cannot go beyond what is empirical. What is empirical cannot ever be known 100% a priori. Therefore, he is correct in his statement. A theory can gain much empirical evidence, but it can never be purely proven a priori.
 
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gluadys

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During the years 1907-1915 Einstein proposed the Theory of Relivity which specifically addressed two theories: special relativity and general relativity. One of the consequences of general relativity proposed that rays of light bend in the presence of a gravitational field.


Just as there are many consequences of the theory of evolution which have been subsequently observed.

Here you are touching on one of the key characteristics of a scientific theory: whether we are able to derive from the theory something that has not been observed and which is NOT predicted by other competing theories.

This is what guides research. Because the theory of relativity predicted that light is bent when passing near a massive gravitational field, scientists began discussing how they could determine if this really happened. Would they have even thought of looking for such a phenomenon if it had not been a prediction of the theory?

The same thing goes for big bang theory. Hubble began by observing the red shift in distant galaxies and musing that one way to explain this is if the universe is expanding.

Note the difference between the fact/observation: distant galaxies show deep red shifts in their light and the more distant the galaxy, the deeper the shift.

and the theory (which is offered as an explanation): the universe is expanding.

Now this leads to many other questions---what are the logical consequences of an expanding universe? One is that it used to be smaller--in fact, at some point all the matter/energy in the universe must have been gathered together--and this must have been a finite time ago. When?

Other consequences follow from the concentration of energy into a smaller space.

The red-shift is the observed fact. Big bang is the theory which 1) explains this observation, 2) predicts other observations and 3) gives scientists ideas on what sort of research to do to find out whether or not those other observations are also real.


Evolution is a theory on the same basis as the theory of relativity and big bang theory. It explained many observations that were already known in Darwin's time and predicted others which led to research that has since verified them.
 
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metherion

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I agree that theory is as good as it gets when it's the belief that life evolved from a single cell creature, but where do you get the right to say theory is as good as it get in science! Such bolderdash is exactly the reason why you can't see or understand what constitutes how true scientific facts are determined, and how they are used in everyday life. Scientists do not use unproven theories to do anything good or worthwhile, except to propagate the ToE which tells man he evolved from a cell to an ape, instead of being created fully human in the image of God.

I suggest you go to the EvC Forum. Your views will be very welcome and supported there.
You are equivocating.

Theory in science and theory in everyday usage mean entirely different things.

Proof is for liquor and mathematics, not science. There is not one 'proven' theory. So scientists have used the 'unproven' theories of ours to make things like vaccines, fiberglass, better running car engines, power plants for electricity, and so on. All that from 'unproven' theories.

We GET the right to say "Theory is as good as it gets in science" because we know what the definition of theory science uses is, how it works, and have spent years in college specifically studying science and using the theories and applications thereof to do practical things. Well, by 'we' I mean at least myself and sfs. A scientific theory IS as good as it gets.

Metherion
 
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Mallon

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I agree that theory is as good as it gets when it's the belief that life evolved from a single cell creature, but where do you get the right to say theory is as good as it get in science!
But theory is as good as it gets in science. That's the whole point of science: to derive theories that explain facts. Facts are what we put into science; theories are what we get out of it.
 
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sfs

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I agree that theory is as good as it gets when it's the belief that life evolved from a single cell creature, but where do you get the right to say theory is as good as it get in science!
Where do I get the right to say how science works? You want the details? I got the right by spending four years in college learning math and physics -- electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, classical mechanics and relativity. The I spent two more years in graduate school taking classes, this time in nuclear physics, particle physics, atomic physics and solid state physics, among other things, followed by almost four years of learning the craft of science -- how to do research, how to debug electronics, how to analyze data, how to present data -- all so I could get my PhD. After that I spent ten years working as a particle physicist, writing software, analyzing B and D meson decays, studying tau leptons and doing lots of night shifts in the control room. In my spare time I read textbooks on cell biology, molecular biology, genetics, biochemistry, evolution and population genetics, and turned myself into a geneticist. After that I spent ten years doing research on human and malaria genetics, writing models, analyzing more data, solving equations and writing papers. Along the way I spent thousands of hours in lab meetings, conferences, seminars and journal clubs, not to mention time spent chatting with other scientists over beer or coffee or lunch. I've read unnumbered scientific papers, refereed dozens of others and authored (or co-authored) about a hundred papers. Oh yeah, I also did some scattered reading in the philosophy, sociology and history of science, just to get an idea of what others think about science. By this time I think I have at least a decent idea of how science works. And based on that, yes, theory is as good as it gets in science.

So what exactly have you done to earn the right to tell scientists how to do their job?
 
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John 10:10

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Where do I get the right to say how science works?
Your exact quote was "theory is as good as it gets in science," not how science works. You still don't understand how science works if you think theory is as good as it gets in science, and you've missed your Creator Redeemer God in the process of all your learning and career work.
So what exactly have you done to earn the right to tell scientists how to do their job?
As I said earlier, 45 years in the fossil and nuclear energy business, finding my Creator Redeemer God in the process of all my learning and career work.
 
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sfs

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Your exact quote was "theory is as good as it gets in science," not how science works.
And theories are how science works. This really isn't very complicated.
You still don't understand how science works if you think theory is as good as it gets in science, and you've missed your Creator Redeemer God in the process of all your learning and career work.
Sigh. So, yes, you are telling me how science works. And you know how this how, exactly? How does knowing God tell you what "theory" means to scientists, or about how well supported evolution is as a theory?
As I said earlier, 45 years in the fossil and nuclear energy business, finding my Creator Redeemer God in the process of all my learning and career work.
I asked how you know about science and you seem to have answered some other question. What does the fossil fuel business have to do with how science treats theories? Do you really think that finding God tells you what scientists mean when they talk about theories?
 
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Tiberius

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Yes, verse 18 means:

If we study science, we WILL inevitably conclude that evolution is true. Because it is a T/F question: Evolution, or Creation.

This verse is much much more true now than it was at Solomon's time.

False duality. How do you know that one of the many other religions didn't get the process of the world being formed right?

Although, given all the options available, I'd say evolution is the winner. It is just about as verified as it is possible for a scientific theory (or theorum, as Richard Dawkins suggests we call it to make it clear that it's not just an idea) is possible to get.
 
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John 10:10

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How does knowing God tell you what "theory" means to scientists, or about how well supported evolution is as a theory?What does the fossil fuel business have to do with how science treats theories? Do you really think that finding God tells you what scientists mean when they talk about theories?
Finding / knowing God as my Creator / Redeemer enables one to truly know and explore the wonders of God's creation. Can those who do not honor God as their Creator / Redeemer explore the wonders of God's creation? Yes they can, but they are limited to the confines of their finite minds, trying to make sense of where they came from by proposing and living by Godless theories such as the ToE, rather than living by the truths of God's creation that have been verified to be true to a high degree of accuracy.
 
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sfs

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Finding / knowing God as my Creator / Redeemer enables one to truly know and explore the wonders of God's creation. Can those who do not honor God as their Creator / Redeemer explore the wonders of God's creation? Yes they can, but they are limited to the confines of their finite minds, trying to make sense of where they came from by proposing and living by Godless theories such as the ToE, rather than living by the truths of God's creation that have been verified to be true to a high degree of accuracy.
You didn't answer my questions. How do any of these things inform you about how scientists treat theories, or about how much evidence there is for evolution?

Also, why is evolution any more godless than particle physics or geology?

Further, why is a high degree of accuracy, rather than a high degree of certainty, the right measure for what counts as a truth of God's creation? Chemistry and physics both permit high degrees of accuracy, while geology and meteorology don't. Does this mean that chemistry is a godly science and meteorology isn't?
 
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Mallon

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With all due respect, John 10:10, if you really did know science as well as you proclaim, you'd know that scientific theories aren't 'godless'. Evolution leaves room for God just as does germ theory, gravity theory, relativity theory, etc. Science ascribes to methodological naturalism, not ontological naturalism.
 
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T

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Finding / knowing God as my Creator / Redeemer enables one to truly know and explore the wonders of God's creation.

The why do you keep getting it all wrong?

Can those who do not honor God as their Creator / Redeemer explore the wonders of God's creation? Yes they can, but they are limited to the confines of their finite minds, trying to make sense of where they came from by proposing and living by Godless theories such as the ToE, rather than living by the truths of God's creation that have been verified to be true to a high degree of accuracy.

I see... and your mind is infinite?
 
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sfs

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That there is pretty much THE question. Ain't it?
-
Yes.(*)

(*) In this context anyway. In other contexts, other questions assume greater importance. Like, say, "Is this thing loaded?".

And then there's Pooh's take on important questions:
“When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,” said Piglet, “what’s the first thing you say to yourself?”
“What’s for breakfast?,” said Pooh.
“What do you say Piglet?” asked Pooh.
“I say, I wonder what’s going to happen exciting today?” said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully, “It’s the same thing", he said.
 
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metherion

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Can those who do not honor God as their Creator / Redeemer explore the wonders of God's creation? Yes they can, but they are limited to the confines of their finite minds, trying to make sense of where they came from by proposing and living by Godless theories such as the ToE, rather than living by the truths of God's creation that have been verified to be true to a high degree of accuracy.

So what about those of us who DO worship God as our Creator/Redeemer? Should we get different results magically when we do the same things just because we worship God? That seems to be what you are saying.



Or should our worshipping God preclude our even involving ourselves in the same science? 'I claim to know how this works according to the Bible so I don't even need to bother in the science around it.'?

Or do we need to set up cognitive dissonance? "I believe the Bible read properly says X, and I must stick to X despite the fact that everything I do in this particular field of science contradicts X, and I can use the contradicting data to do things that work, so X not being right produces results, but I must still believe X is correct."?

Metherion
 
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