How does one become a Theistic Evolutionist?

[Mallon]

From what I've read, most here do not believe that "life evolved with God."

Well, you're wrong. As I said, this is a Christian forum. We believe God creates and sustains all things, including evolution.

I see nothing in CA215 & Evolution 101 that atributes anything to "life evolving with God."

It also doesn't say life evolved without God. Like any tool, science is agnostic. It cannot tell you whether God exists or not, just as a hammer cannot tell you whether God exists or not. It is up to the individual wielding that tool to use it for God's glory or not.

Yes, we learn very much how to live today from the past, mostly from the written record. Those who don't are doomed to repeat it. But scientific truths are developed in the continuing present, not from how certain creatures who lived in the fossil record past possibly evolved.

Another misconception about science. Science doesn't reveal "truth" or absolutes. It can only tell us what is not true. Check out Karl Popper's work.

 

[LightSeaker]

Man may study the past all he pleases and gain much useful information concerning what kind of creatures lived in the past, and man may read the written record of man’s existence on earth to learn how man lived and the exploits he did, but scientific truths are developed in the continuing present, not by the uncertain past.

Evolution, Geology...those sciences of the earth, they most defiantly ARE opened up with the certainty of the past. In the beginning of that paragraph you seem to even be saying that’s so yourself. But than you close with a cry against those very same sciences as being "uncertain".

My problem with many who follow the Biblical Creation model is their want to ignore the historical record that IS found with in God's own Creation. Are you trying to find a way of saying that on one hand the past historical record is useful, but on the other hand, in the end, we need to ignore that knowledge?


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[John 10:10]

Could life have evolved over time with God? Certainly, but that would require God's creative hand more imtimately and marvelously in every minute step of the process than with God creating all plant and animal life "after their own kind," and then letting them reproduce with the procreative powers God gave to the life He created.

Yes, true science tells us what is true and what is not, but those who do not believe in creator God come up with some crazy ideas and conclusions, calling it science.

Geology and the earth sciences do open up the past, but only to the degree we in the present can validate to a high degree of accuracy how they came to be. If we can't validate the earth sciences to a high degree of accuracy today, we can't declare any certainty in the past.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Could life have evolved over time with God? Certainly, but that would require God's creative hand more imtimately and marvelously in every minute step of the process than with God creating all plant and animal life "after their own kind," and then letting them reproduce with the procreative powers God gave to the life He created.

is this beyond God's power?

Yes, true science tells us what is true and what is not, but those who do not believe in creator God come up with some crazy ideas and conclusions, calling it science.

Actually, around here, it's the ones who do believe in God coming up with the wacky ideas... I've heard about water vapor canopies, hyperfast evolution, and oxygen-rich environments leading to 900-year lifespans... It wasn't Atheists coming up with that gibberish.

Geology and the earth sciences do open up to the past, but only to the degree we in the present can validate to a high degree of accuracy how they came to be. If we can't validate the earth sciences to a high degree of accuracy today, we can't declare any certainty in the past.

Except we can and we do.

 

[Mallon]

Could life have evolved over time with God? Certainly, but that would require God's creative hand more imtimately and marvelously in every minute step of the process than with God creating all plant and animal life "after their own kind," and then letting them reproduce with the procreative powers God gave to the life He created.

I don't get your objection. Are you saying that you have a problem with evolution because God is too involved? Are you saying that you prefer the ex nihilo creation of "kinds" because it requires God less?

Yes, true science tells us what is true and what is not

No, it doesn't. Again, this is basic science philosophy. Science can only tell us what is not true by the process of falsification. It cannot tell us what is true. God is the only source of truth. Not science. You sound more like a positivist when you say science is the source of truth.

Geology and the earth sciences do open up the past, but only to the degree we in the present can validate to a high degree of accuracy how they came to be. If we can't validate the earth sciences to a high degree of accuracy today, we can't declare any certainty in the past.

Obviously, real scientists disagree. Heck, even YEC organizations like AiG disagree. Forensic sciences like palaeontology and geology can certainly help set boundary conditions of what was not possible in the past. We not know every that happened in the past with great degrees of certainty, but that doesn't make the forensic sciences useless.

 

[LightSeaker]

Could life have evolved over time with God? Certainly, but that would require God's creative hand more imtimately and marvelously in every minute step of the process than with God creating all plant and animal life "after their own kind," and then letting them reproduce with the procreative powers God gave to the life He created.

Yes, true science tells us what is true and what is not, but those who do not believe in creator God come up with some crazy ideas and conclusions, calling it science.

Geology and the earth sciences do open up the past, but only to the degree we in the present can validate to a high degree of accuracy how they came to be. If we can't validate the earth sciences to a high degree of accuracy today, we can't declare any certainty in the past.

What we CAN declare with certainty, from the scientific knowledge gained, is that life forms DO evolve. That is not some crazy idea. God's own Creation has opened that knowledge up to us. The study of evolution has given us the window to watch how God creates life forms. And the study of geology has also given us a glorious window in which we can watch the evolution of the earth.

Neither evolution nor geology need to be decreased in importance nor decreased in understanding, (or brushed off as wrong) for a lover of God to also see God's hand at work with in His own Creation.

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[Mallon]

By the way, John 10:10, I'm linking to an article that might interested you. It makes the point that hypothesis testing in historical and "hard" sciences proceeds in largely the same way, which you appear to disagree with:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2002/PSCF6-02Miller2.pdf

And it's written by an evangelical Christian geologist.

 

[John 10:10]

Nothing is beyond God's power to create and sustain that which He has created. But understanding what God has created and how He sustains what he has created is a different story.

First we go to what God has revealed in His Word to man concerning His creation. God says He created every plant and animal "after their own kind." If some want to interpret this to say plants and animals evolved over long peroids of time into different species with God's hand in every step of the process, you are welcome to that belief.

Second we examine the wonders of God's creation. To the extent we can validate to a high degree of accuracy how things came to be as they are, we can say we understand God's creation process and call this knowledge true science.

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.

 

[Mallon]

First we go to what God has revealed in His Word to man concerning His creation.

But why? I'm all for deriving theology from the Bible because that's the Bible's stated purpose (2 Tim 3:15, [FONT=&quot]John 20:23[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]John 5:39[/FONT], [FONT=&quot] Romans 15:4[/FONT], [FONT=&quot]2 Tim 3:16[/FONT]). But are we really supposed to derive our science from the Bible? The Bible doesn't say that. It says there are things we can learn about God by looking to His creation alone (e.g., Rom 1:20).
Are you aware of Christianity's previous attempts to derive science from the Bible? Remember heliocentrism? That was based on the words of the Bible. Remember preformatism? That was based on the words of the Bible. Remember the debate about the existence of antipodes? That was based on the words of the Bible. Clearly, scientific concordism failed in the past, so I don't know why some Christians insist that we still use it. It doesn't work!!!

God says He created every plant and animal "after their own kind."

God also says He knit us together in the womb, He set the world on a foundation of pillars, He made a solid dome for the sky, etc. Simply proof-texting the Bible doesn't support your case as it relates to science. God says many things in scripture that aren't meant to be understood scientifically.

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.

I agree with this only in the sense that God should be recognized as the creator and sustainor of the world's natural processes. But I disagree with your earlier implication that God should somehow be pigeonholed into our theories about the universe. Again, He is not a variable that can be manipulated in our various theorems and formulas. You've done nothing to show how explicitly including God in the scientific process has any practical value, even after being asked to. How is this done? How do you squeeze God into your engineering blueprints in any meaningful way? You've written lots, but I don't know that you've actually contributed anything of use.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Nothing is beyond God's power to create and sustain that which He has created. But understanding what God has created and how He sustains what he has created is a different story.

A story which is best understood by examining the creations themselves.

First we go to what God has revealed in His Word to man concerning His creation. God says He created every plant and animal "after their own kind." If some want to interpret this to say plants and animals evolved over long peroids of time into different species with God's hand in every step of the process, you are welcome to that belief.

Not that we need your permission, but thanks anyway.

Second we examine the wonders of God's creation. To the extent we can validate to a high degree of accuracy how things came to be as they are, we can say we understand God's creation process and call this knowledge true science.

All of which points to evolution... so what's got you all in a twist?

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.

Good thing that nobody here in this Christians-Only section of the forums thing that God is left out.

Again... what's got you bothered?

 

[JusSumguy]

Nothing is beyond God's power to create and sustain that which He has created. But understanding what God has created and how He sustains what he has created is a different story.

First we go to what God has revealed in His Word to man concerning His creation. God says He created every plant and animal "after their own kind." If some want to interpret this to say plants and animals evolved over long peroids of time into different species

Sceeeeeeech. <--sound of screeching brakes.

No proof that ANY species became another. PERIOD.

No cross pollination of topics please.

with God's hand in every step of the process, you are welcome to that belief.

Second we examine the wonders of God's creation. To the extent we can validate to a high degree of accuracy how things came to be as they are, we can say we understand God's creation process and call this knowledge true science.

To what extent is that? And what fact is reaching this high degree of accuracy? What do we know about the origin of life other than.... it happened?

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.

I agree......

Everybody wants to wiggle off the hook.


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[LightSeaker]

Nothing is beyond God's power to create and sustain that which He has created. But understanding what God has created and how He sustains what he has created is a different story.

So very true. Interestingly enough, the windows into what God has created and how He sustains what has been created is being opened up through the tools of evolution and geology.

First we go to what God has revealed in His Word to man concerning His creation. God says He created every plant and animal "after their own kind." If some want to interpret this to say plants and animals evolved over long peroids of time into different species with God's hand in every step of the process, you are welcome to that belief.

Personally, when it comes to God&#8217;s Creation, I have to go with God&#8217;s Word that&#8217;s built within Creation itself. As we all know, Creation, IS signed off by God&#8230;with His very own signature. And it IS God&#8217;s own Creation, as Created by God, that&#8217;s showing us a very long period of evolution for plants and animals.

Second we examine the wonders of God's creation. To the extent we can validate to a high degree of accuracy how things came to be as they are, we can say we understand God's creation process and call this knowledge true science.

Agreed!! Thank you.

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.

Science is science. In scientific studies, no, I do not believe that scientist who do not believe in a Creator God are being deceived in their science. Scientist only reports on what is observed and what can be tested. That&#8217;s all. And that is how it should be.

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[Mick116]

I was just wondering how a Bible believing person becomes a Theistic Evolutionist...Is Theistic Evolution even Biblical? If so, where in Scripture does one derive it from?

Theistic evolution is based on an investigation of what God has made; such investigation into God's creation has scriptural warrant, for example:

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork".

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..."

Psalm 8:3 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained..."

Psalm 111:2 (ESV) "Great are the works of the LORD, studied by all who delight in them".

 

[metherion]

Third those that leave creator God out of the scientific process when they examine the universe and life therein are deceived, many times coming to conclusions that are false because they want so much to believe in an answer without God.
I agree......

Everybody wants to wiggle off the hook.

I actually started a thread about this a while ago. Why is there such a popular misconception that people only accept evolution to get off the hook of being accountable to God? There are those of us who accept evolution and accept God, those who reject both evolution AND God, and so on. Evolution isn't and never was a way to get along without God or out from under His thumb, why the rhetoric to say it is?

Metherion

 

[The Barbarian]

I was just wondering how a Bible believing person becomes a Theistic Evolutionist...Is Theistic Evolution even Biblical?

First, one has to be willing to accept God's word as it is. While there are some forms of creationism that are compatible with God's word, Genesis rules out young Earth creationism.

Evolution isn't Biblical any more than protons or solid state physics is Biblical. Not everything that's true can be found in the Bible.

 

[The Barbarian]

No proof that ANY species became another. PERIOD.

The first directly observed speciation occurred about 1904. Even the major creationist organizations now admit that speciation is a fact.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolution isn't and never was a way to get along without God or out from under His thumb, why the rhetoric to say it is?

Mostly because creationists don't have much else to say. It's a shabby argument, but it's useful to keep those ignorant of science in line.

 

[juvenissun]

I actually started a thread about this a while ago. Why is there such a popular misconception that people only accept evolution to get off the hook of being accountable to God? There are those of us who accept evolution and accept God, those who reject both evolution AND God, and so on. Evolution isn't and never was a way to get along without God or out from under His thumb, why the rhetoric to say it is?

Metherion

If you really believe in evolution, it WILL affect your faith to God. Because you have duel principles in dealing with anything and everything.

 

[Tiberius]

I think you mean "dual", meaning "two". "Duel" means "conflict", but that is also somewhat appropriate...

 

[metherion]

If you really believe in evolution, it WILL affect your faith to God. Because you have duel principles in dealing with anything and everything

Will &#8216;believing&#8217; in gravity also affect my faith in God? What about &#8216;believing&#8217; in germ theory or plate tectonics? Or heliocentrism?

Personally, I would say evolution has deepened my faith by being able to actually appreciate what God did, not what fallible man thinks God said He did, to put it as it often comes out of YEC mouths.

Honestly, I see the creationists as having the dual OR duel (coz there&#8217;s DEFINITELY cognitive dissonance going on) principles of dealing with anything and everything. On one hand, you have a literal interpretation of one specific part of the Bible, and on the other you ignore both God&#8217;s Work and the parts of the Bible that direct you to God&#8217;s Work all in the name of being &#8220;Bible alone&#8221;. Well, the Bible itself isn&#8217;t Bible alone, so... yeah. Have fun with that. Unless we&#8217;ve found the book of Jasher and incorporated it into the canon, among others?

It still doesn&#8217;t answer my question about why evolution is also brought up as a way to get out from under God&#8217;s thumb, which ties in with my next point I&#8217;d bring up:

It's a shabby argument, but it's useful to keep those ignorant of science in line.

But if it&#8217;s shabby, why keep using it?

I mean, to be perfectly honest, it seems like a lot of YECs, or at least PROFESSIONAL YECs (AIG, CSE, TLA (three letter acronym, ha ha ha )) use creationism as their excuse to get out from under God&#8217;s thumb. Lie about the evidence? Lie about the science? Misquote the scientists? All of the above bearing false witness, but it&#8217;s okay, it&#8217;s done for the BIBLE! They seem to treat it a lot more like Wholly Babble than Holy Bible. Especially the parts about how to act morally according to God. And that&#8217;s just the surface. One rather famous guy is currently in jail for failing to render unto Caesar claiming it was for his ministry.

A lot of it seems like projection. *Shrug*


Metherion&#8232;