How does one become a Theistic Evolutionist?

[Assyrian]

The Art of War by SunTze is a BOOK of many chapters. It is not just an one-line teaching. Of course, one would have problem if tried to thoroughly understand his enemies every time. But, there are other strategies to win. We can not understand satan. But we can beat him.

My church is a small one with about 250 in the congregation. Believe it or not, I am the only scientist in the church. I do not expect people in my church to make successful argument against evolution. But they don't have to. There are other ways. The strawman strategy you mentioned is not necessary a bad one.

Ah yes that other great Sun Tzu quote: All warfare is based on deception.

God says those people who are not bothered by "the depth of satan" are blessed.

Interesting analogy for you to chose. Doesn't mean making stuff up though. Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." 10 But these men revile whatever they do not understand. But if you just have strawman accusations against evolution how do you even know it is your enemy? How do you know it is 'faith' if you don't understand it?

 

[Drekkan85]

It's worth noting that anyone that has read Sun Tzu knows there are many ways to beat the enemy; however there are matters that go beyond specific strategies. Sun Tzu goes into the matter of blame which is universal no matter what the situation. If the orders are given in an unclear manner, it is the fault of the senior officers. If the orders are clear, and not executed well, it is the fault of the juniors/subordinates.

Similarly, the most important lesson Sun Tzu relates is that knowing your enemy and yourself is critical. He that knows both himself and his enemy need not fear the result of one hundred battles. If one knows only yourself or your enemy you will win about half of them. Know neither yourself nor your enemy, and you shall never be victorious.

That's an overarching lesson - not one of the specific strategies. If you cannot understand or know Satan, and you seek to combat him, you can not guarantee victory.

 

[LightSeaker]

That's an overarching lesson - not one of the specific strategies. If you cannot understand or know Satan, and you seek to combat him, you can not guarantee victory.

With Satan, if one thinks that combat is the way to go, any attempt to do so out side of Love is going to be a losing battle. Period!!!

My editorial on this: Loving God is the stuff that feeds the soul and is the right thing to do. Combat on the other hand is stuff of the ego and is not of God and thus is the wrong way to go.

Just Love. Satan has no armor against Love.

.

 

[juvenissun]

Ah yes that other great Sun Tzu quote: All warfare is based on deception.

Interesting analogy for you to chose. Doesn't mean making stuff up though. Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." 10 But these men revile whatever they do not understand. But if you just have strawman accusations against evolution how do you even know it is your enemy? How do you know it is 'faith' if you don't understand it?

Good point.

First, we need to know that we could not understand everything. In fact, one can only know very little.

So, if something came up to teach a new "systematic knowledge", but we do not understand, what do you do? How do you check the new knowledge against something you do know?

So, you tell me, how should an average Christian, who does not understand evolution, evaluate what the evolution says?

 

[juvenissun]

It's worth noting that anyone that has read Sun Tzu knows there are many ways to beat the enemy; however there are matters that go beyond specific strategies. Sun Tzu goes into the matter of blame which is universal no matter what the situation. If the orders are given in an unclear manner, it is the fault of the senior officers. If the orders are clear, and not executed well, it is the fault of the juniors/subordinates.

Similarly, the most important lesson Sun Tzu relates is that knowing your enemy and yourself is critical. He that knows both himself and his enemy need not fear the result of one hundred battles. If one knows only yourself or your enemy you will win about half of them. Know neither yourself nor your enemy, and you shall never be victorious.

That's an overarching lesson - not one of the specific strategies. If you cannot understand or know Satan, and you seek to combat him, you can not guarantee victory.

See, here is an example: even you do know satan (and yourself), you still should not try to seek him out.

What SunTze said was the ART of war, not the RULES of war.

Try to beat the evolution strawman IS an art.

 

[juvenissun]

Proof that you're mistaken. Evolution does not weaken faith, nor does it make God any less "real." to me.

I don't think you know yourself that well.

 

[juvenissun]

Proof? Oh, right.

It is seen EVERYWHERE:

Chruch kids lose faith when they started to learn a few lessons about evolution in high school or in college.

Do they really know that evolution is true, but creation is not? Absolutely not.

 

[juvenissun]

And you expect people to believe you're a scientist? Any other situations where honesty is not necessarily the best policy?

Want to give me a test?

 

[juvenissun]

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

What is this really saying about God I wonder?

I'll have to think about it somemore...

To me, it simply says that we do not know what time really is. This idea is accepted by theoretical physicists.

So, 6000 yrs may not be very different from 4.5 billion years.

 

[juvenissun]

Dude, there is no way you are a scientist.

I would like very much to be an artist. But I am a little underqualified.

 

[juvenissun]

Indeed, many people wonder why it's taking God so long to judge the world and let suffering exist for so long, but perhaps to the Lord, it's like a matter of days...

No no. It is not long at all. It only lasts "one generation".
Can you understand that? It has been more than 2000 years. But that generation is not over yet.

See, this is the wisdom from Creationism. Evolution can absolutely not understand it. They would only say: if the Lord did not come soon, we will evolve beyond human (because the climate is going to change )

 

[metherion]

Try to beat the evolution strawman IS an art.

But is only strawmen. The actual thing is a little more robust.

Chruch kids lose faith when they started to learn a few lessons about evolution in high school or in college.

Do they really know that evolution is true, but creation is not? Absolutely not.

But it might have something to do with the false dichotomy ingrained in them since they were old enough to understand the word Jesus.

Metherion

 

[Drekkan85]

See, here is an example: even you do know satan (and yourself), you still should not try to seek him out.

What SunTze said was the ART of war, not the RULES of war.

Try to beat the evolution strawman IS an art.

Except in warfare, those that ignore Sun Tzu almost universally lose in war - those that follow his advice almost universally win.

There's a reason why his work is still required reading at the military academies world wide - and why generals even today try and copy his strategums.

 

[Assyrian]

Good point.

First, we need to know that we could not understand everything. In fact, one can only know very little.

So, if something came up to teach a new "systematic knowledge", but we do not understand, what do you do? How do you check the new knowledge against something you do know?

So, you tell me, how should an average Christian, who does not understand evolution, evaluate what the evolution says?

Do we teach them to evaluate general relativity, quantum mechanics, x ray diffraction, organic chemistry? Why should any scientific study of God's universe be an issue whether they chose to learn about it or ignore because science is not their forte. Who tells them evolution is an enemy? Other believers who only understand, or only teach, strawman version. People learn the strawman and like you don't want to learn more. So kids in church are taught how evil evolution is and how if evolution is true the bible is a lie, and their faith is strengthened by all the strawman proofs that show evolution is wrong and the bible (or the interpretation of it) is right. Then the children are sent out into the world armoured in straw. Is it any wonder so many children or YECs have their faith shattered when they learn the truth about evolution and their armour of straw is consumed in the fire?

 

[Willtor]

Want to give me a test?

I would. How about some publications?

 

[gluadys]

So, you tell me, how should an average Christian, who does not understand evolution, evaluate what the evolution says?

First, they should not take any conclusion as definitive until they do understand it. Second, they should learn it well enough to understand it, at least at a basic level. If they are not willing to do that much, they should admit they don't know enough to make an evaluation and leave the question unanswered.

What they should not do is say, in effect, "I don't understand evolution, so it must be wrong."

 

[lawtonfogle]

I was just wondering how a Bible believing person becomes a Theistic Evolutionist...Is Theistic Evolution even Biblical? If so, where in Scripture does one derive it from?

The whole search for wisdom part.

You become a TE in multiple steps.

First, you realize that on many occasions, those who have taught you your beliefs have lied to you, and thus you need to check what you do believe.

Second, you understand that mathematics is a form of truth derivation, you cannot disagree with mathematics on the basis of principal.

Third, you recognize that evolution (not the Theory of Evolution) is not biology, and that it is instead a form of math which describes the change in certain systems.

Fourth, you realize that reproducing systems in the world, even single celled creatures, are a system described by evolution.

At this point, you accept 'micro evolution'.

Fifth, you realize the difference between micro and macro evolution is only a time scale.

Sixth, you accept that current science dates the earth to be old. Either it was created old, or it is old. If it was created old, then species could have been created evolved by the very same processes which science has described. If it is old, then you are a TE.

Seventh, you realize that the difference between scientific history and reality, due to the imperfect nature of science, allows for there to have been an creation of the old earth in reality, but that the scientific history, even the information history of the old earth would be evidence for its existence.

At this time, you are now a theistic evolutionist who may also be an OEC.








The Bible is not the sole container of truth.

 

[Mallon]

I would. How about some publications?

I've already asked him that. He refuses to list his publications. We're supposed to just believe him when he tells us he's a scientist and then goes on to say the most anti-intellectual things. Kinda like Kent Hovind.

 

[juvenissun]

I've already asked him that. He refuses to list his publications. We're supposed to just believe him when he tells us he's a scientist and then goes on to say the most anti-intellectual things. Kinda like Kent Hovind.

I can give you a list. But it is simply a waste.
If you don't think I am scientist, then be it. I don't care.

 

[sfs]

I can give you a list. But it is simply a waste.

Why is providing supporting evidence a waste?

If you don't think I am scientist, then be it. I don't care.

You care enough to say that you're a scientist, but not enough to take two minutes to provide a few references? I don't get it.