How does Mary protect us?

[Lost4words]

So Jesus didn't have to die for her on the cross in the same way as He did for all other sinners? If Mary was immaculate and sinless as you are saying, why wasn't it her who had to die on the cross and take the penalty of sin on herself? When Paul said "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God", that would have included Mary herself. He never said, "all, except Mary the mother of Jesus, have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Mary had to receive Jesus as her Saviour and Lord just like all the others.

Of course she had to receive Jesus as Her Saviour and Lord.

What you are forgetting is that She was highly blessed.

 

[Lost4words]

How can believers direct prayers to a dead person whose body has decayed in the grave?

Have you got proof of her grave etc?

 

[anna ~ grace]

The question is, while Mary was one of the 120 in the upper room who received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, why didn't the Apostles start worshiping her then? And how come Paul never mentions praying to Mary in any of his letters to the churches?

Christ Himself gives us her as our Mother.

Plus, when someone is in front of you, you simply pay them respect. Once an especially holy soul has departed to be with the Lord, then, through their intercession, Catholic and Orthodox Christians have always asked God for graces, and help. Or petitioned the Saint directly, always understanding that God grants us graces through them, as He did with and through the Apostles, while they were even here on earth.

Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12

 

[Lost4words]

Some info for our friends who seem a bit lost in the facts of Catholicism beliefs

Immaculate Conception and Assumption

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

She is definitely petitioned, and we definitely seek her prayers, and help, intercession, and assistance as we follow Christ.

She is also definitely praised and honored in hymns, litanies, prayers, and sacred art work.

What you have described is definitely worship, and in violation of the commandment, "I am the Lord your God and the only One whom you are to worship" (my paraphrase).

Linguistically, though, in a distinction clear in Greek and Latin yet less clear in English, worship is that which can only be offered to a deity, whereas veneration is offered to especially holy men and women who are in Heaven already, of whom Mary is key.

No one is in heaven already. Only Jesus is there - at the right hand of the Father. All others are in Paradise, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. No one can reach, or communicate with them there. That is where Mary is right now. She will not be able to hear the prayers of those who petition her, much less be able to do anything about them. The idea that Mary is some glorified person alongside Christ in heaven is just pure, paganised, imagination.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Of course she had to receive Jesus as Her Saviour and Lord.

What you are forgetting is that She was highly blessed.

She had to exercise the same faith in Christ, be forgiven of her sins, and be converted to Christ just the same as any other Christian believer. Of course she was highly respected in the early church, but to elevate her into some glorified person in heaven to receive prayers and petitions is not only imagination, but pure idolatry.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Have you got proof of her grave etc?

We don't really know where she is buried. We don't know whether she actually stayed in Jerusalem or related to somewhere else in the Middle East after the scattering of believers because of the persecution that arose after the death of Stephen. Her grave could be anywhere, either in Jerusalem or the surrounding regions. But many who worship and pray to Mary would not want to know about the location of Mary's grave, because they would have to recognise that she is dead and buried.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Christ Himself gives us her as our Mother.

Plus, when someone is in front of you, you simply pay them respect. Once an especially holy soul has departed to be with the Lord, then, through their intercession, Catholic and Orthodox Christians have always asked God for graces, and help. Or petitioned the Saint directly, always understanding that God grants us graces through them, as He did with and through the Apostles, while they were even here on earth.

Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12

How does that concur with Paul's statement that "there is no other mediator between God and man but the man Christ Jesus"?

And the Acts reference you quote has nothing to do with praying to Mary at all!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Christ Himself gives us her as our Mother.

That's not what Jesus actually said when He asked the people, "Who are my mother and brothers?"

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(Matthew 12:46-50).

It is important that we consult the actual wording of the Scripture before putting words into the mouth of Jesus that He never said.

 

[prodromos]

I recently attended a full Requiem Mass in a Catholic church, and prayers were definitely directed to Mary, and was the object of worship, along with Jesus Christ.

"Prayer" simply means "to petition, ask, make request". It is only a relatively recent phenomenon among some Protestants, to equate prayer with worship.

 

[Lost4words]

She had to exercise the same faith in Christ, be forgiven of her sins, and be converted to Christ just the same as any other Christian believer. Of course she was highly respected in the early church, but to elevate her into some glorified person in heaven to receive prayers and petitions is not only imagination, but pure idolatry.

Again, only 'your' opinion

 

[Lost4words]

We don't really know where she is buried. We don't know whether she actually stayed in Jerusalem or related to somewhere else in the Middle East after the scattering of believers because of the persecution that arose after the death of Stephen. Her grave could be anywhere, either in Jerusalem or the surrounding regions. But many who worship and pray to Mary would not want to know about the location of Mary's grave, because they would have to recognise that she is dead and buried.

Again, no Catholics worship Mary. You are greatly wrong in your belief of that.

 

[Lost4words]

How does that concur with Paul's statement that "there is no other mediator between God and man but the man Christ Jesus"?

And the Acts reference you quote has nothing to do with praying to Mary at all!

Mary, intercedes on behalf of Her children to Jesus

 

[Lost4words]

That's not what Jesus actually said when He asked the people, "Who are my mother and brothers?"

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(Matthew 12:46-50).

It is important that we consult the actual wording of the Scripture before putting words into the mouth of Jesus that He never said.

Jesus said to John at the foot of the cross:

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

To Catholics etc, this is a definite sign that Jesus gave His mother to us, and us to Her

 

[Lost4words]

"Prayer" simply means "to petition, ask, make request". It is only a relatively recent phenomenon among some Protestants, to equate prayer with worship.

This is so true.

 

[prodromos]

How can believers direct prayers to a dead person whose body has decayed in the grave?

Firstly, death is simply the seperation of our souls from our bodies, our souls live on in communion with God. Those who have passed on in Christ can only hear petitions through God's grace by nature of being in the same body. They do not temporarily cease being in the Church because their bodies have died. Christ defeated death through His own death on the cross. Death no longer has any power over believers.
Secondly, it is the consistent experience of the Church over two millenia that those who are alive in Christ do indeed hear our requests and pray to God on our behalf. The miracles which have occured over the centuries through the prayers of the Saints are innumerable, especially those of Mary. They demonstrate that Christ has indeed defeated death because they are truly alive in Christ.
Lastly, we know exactly where Mary was buried but we also know that her tomb is empty. While we have the relics (bodily remains) of all the Apostles and many other Saints, we have no relics of Mary except for the camel hair belt she wore around her waist, and miracles continue to occur around that.

 

[concretecamper]

Howdy! I would be interested in your opinions.

I would look at the OT and the Ark of the Covenant. What did the Jews do with the Ark? How did they treat it? What role did the Ark have in battle.

Considering that the OT is but a foreshadowing of the New, meditate on the importance of the Ark of the New Covanent.

 

[FenderTL5]

How does that concur with Paul's statement that "there is no other mediator between God and man but the man Christ Jesus"?

It's no challenge at all. Christ is the one mediator. Christ is the only God/Man, both 100% God and 100% man, the only one to bridge that gap. The one who gave Himself for all. It is only in partaking of His Divine Nature that we have hope. You seemingly confuse this principle with intercession. Being the one mediator does not eliminate intercessory prayer. Even in the very context of the passage you misquote, we are instructed toward intercessory prayer.
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
Apostle Paul (emphasis added)

 

[FenderTL5]

Yes. I will qualify my remark. She has a very special place in the Christian world in that she was chosen to be the human mother of Jesus.

How is that different from what you said previously? Which was:

Mary is respected as the biological mother of Jesus, and that is all.

It reads to me that you merely restated the prior comment.
Where is the part about Mary being called blessed by all generations for her obedience to the call of God?

Then Mary said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”
..Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

This is what Jesus reiterated, "..it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
{emphasis added}

Both are in Luke's Gospel.
The Magnificat, has it been stricken from your copy of the scriptures?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Again, only 'your' opinion

Seeing that the New Testament treats Mary as just another ordinary person, recognised as the mother of Jesus, then my opinion concurs with it. If something is not clearly set out in the New Testament, it is mere religious fantasy and cultish belief.