How Does Jesus Save?

[RobertPate]

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭12‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Holy Spirit guides us to sanctification but we can grieve the Holy Spirit to the point of apostasy and losing our inheritance.

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. If they fall away they were counterfeits. They never did believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There's some confusion here, but the distinction between a grace that is outside of us versus a grace that is inside of us is very good and right. This is what we call Objective Justification.

Our Roman Catholic friends teach that grace is a God-given quality inside of us that enables us to believe and merit salvation. But the Lutheran and also to a large degree the Reformed and historic Anglican position is that even though we are sinners, God counts us as righteous in His sight because of the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, in other words, grace is not a quality or thing inside of us, but God's unmerited favour. To speak simply, Jesus died for us, so this means that when God looks at you, He doesn't see your sins, but the righteousness of His Son. Your sins were nailed to the cross in the body of Jesus! And this is God's promise to us that we receive by faith apart from works (which we call Justification proper, or sometimes Subjective Justification). So in this respect, what you've described is not controversial at all. It's the Gospel. It's the good news that Jesus suffered and died for us, that we may have life in Him.

Now, does this contradict Baptism or Predestination? Not at all! For Scriptures say that we are predestined in Christ and that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned.

As for keeping the commandments, Christ is the one who fulfilled the Law in our place, and through Him, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we now begin to love and obey God and His Word. But this is what we call Sanctification, wherein the Holy Spirit gradually moulds us into the image of Christ. But this has no bearing on Justification, which is already complete and is apprehended by faith alone.

Ephesians 1-2 summarises all of this fantastically, and with regard to the relationship between salvation (Justification) and works (Sanctification), it reads: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

There’s plenty of evidence in the scriptures that believers can lose their salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12, John 15:1-7, Hebrews 6:4-6. All of these provide evidence that believers can lose their salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. If they fall away they were counterfeits. They never did believe.

So why do you keep ignoring my question? The answer should be so simple for you to answer but you keep refusing to answer because you know your answer will either result in contradicting the scriptures or contradicting your theology. That’s why you keep refusing to answer this question.

Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of course not. Simply because it is not of the Holy Spirit.

So what happens when a person who has received the Holy Spirit turns to this type of behavior and doesn’t repent?

 

[d taylor]

A person (a believer) who has trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life and has become a born again child of God and has crossed over from death to life.

Can as you say

So can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

They will not lose their Eternal Life they received when they trusted in The Messiah. Nothing they can do in their earthly life after becoming a believer, can cause them to end up at the great white throne judgment and be sent to the lake of fire.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A person (a believer) who has trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life and has become a born again child of God and has crossed over from death to life.

Can as you say


They will not lose their Eternal Life they received when they trusted in The Messiah. Nothing they can do in their earthly life after becoming a believer, can cause them to end up at the great white throne judgment and be sent to the lake of fire.

Do you believe these words that Jesus said to John?

“Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Your above statement is directly contradictory to what He said here. Do you believe what He said in this statement?

 

[d taylor]

Do you believe these words that Jesus said to John?

“Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Your above statement is directly contradictory to what He said here. Do you believe what He said in this statement?

Where in the verse you are referencing, state the named types of people Christ names are believers.

Are saying that all murders, etc.. have trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

So by your established requirement/beliefs Moses, David, Saul, Samson, etc.. all murders, are in the lake of fire.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where in the verse you are referencing, state the named types of people Christ names are believers.

Are saying that all murders, etc.. have trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

So by your established requirement/beliefs Moses, David, Saul, Samson, etc.. all murders, are in the lake of fire.

Murder is the unlawful killing of another person and then there is of course the benefits of repentance. So my question is which of these men unlawfully killed someone and didn’t repent afterwards? And by Saul are you referring to Saul the king of Israel or the apostle Paul?

 

[RobertPate]

So what happens when a person who has received the Holy Spirit turns to this type of behavior and doesn’t repent?

They were never saved. They were counterfeits.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They were never saved. They were counterfeits.

Counterfeits who were never saved receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[RobertPate]

Counterfeits who were never saved receive the Holy Spirit?

Where does it say that the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is only given to those that God sees "In Christ".

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does it say that the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is only given to those that God sees "In Christ".

You tell me, your the one who said they are counterfeits.

 

[RobertPate]

You tell me, your the one who said they are counterfeits.

A counterfeit is one that appears to be a Christian but is not. Just because it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, does not mean that it's a duck. It might be a chicken.

 

[d taylor]

Murder is the unlawful killing of another person and then there is of course the benefits of repentance. So my question is which of these men unlawfully killed someone and didn’t repent afterwards? And by Saul are you referring to Saul the king of Israel or the apostle Paul?

Show me where you see Moses repenting of killing the Egyptian.

But really the main point is, which seems to escape you. The act of belief, trust, faith happens in a moment of time and which gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life at the very moment a person exercises faith in The Messiah believing God's promise. So tell me how an act of murder or any of the other listed sins in Revelation 21 negates the faith a person exercised in The Messiah at a point in their life after they have believed God's promise and trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

 

[Daniel9v9]

There’s plenty of evidence in the scriptures that believers can lose their salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12, John 15:1-7, Hebrews 6:4-6. All of these provide evidence that believers can lose their salvation.

Yes, that’s right. Sadly, we can indeed lose our salvation if we lose faith. If we stop trusting in the person and works of Jesus, we reject God’s grace and forfeit the salvation freely given us in Christ. God’s Word is very clear on this, and we can for example think of our Lord’s parable of the sower, wherein He gives us different examples of how people reject Him.

I suspect what you’re reacting to is the tension between Arminianism and Calvinism, but that’s a tension that doesn’t exist in the Lutheran system (nor in the Roman Catholic and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox for that matter, but for very different reasons)

 

[RobertPate]

Show me where you see Moses repenting of killing the Egyptian.

But really the main point is, which seems to escape you. The act of belief, trust, faith happens in a moment of time and which gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life at the very moment a person exercises faith in The Messiah believing God's promise. So tell me how an act of murder or any of the other listed sins in Revelation 21 negates the faith a person exercised in The Messiah at a point in their life after they have believed God's promise and trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

All of the patriarchs believed in God's promise of a savior and were justified by faith. Sin does not negate ones salvation. If that were true no one would be saved.

 

[RobertPate]

Yes, that’s right. Sadly, we can indeed lose our salvation if we lose faith. If we stop trusting in the person and works of Jesus, we reject God’s grace and forfeit the salvation freely given us in Christ. God’s Word is very clear on this, and we can for example think of our Lord’s parable of the sower, wherein He gives us different examples of how people reject Him.

I suspect what you’re reacting to is the tension between Arminianism and Calvinism, but that’s a tension that doesn’t exist in the Lutheran system (nor in the Roman Catholic and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox for that matter, but for very different reasons)

If you lose your salvation it is because you never did believe in the first place. You were a counterfeit. All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is no unsealing. Once sealed always sealed, Ephesians 1:13.

 

[Daniel9v9]

If you lose your salvation it is because you never did believe in the first place. You were a counterfeit. All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is no unsealing. Once sealed always sealed, Ephesians 1:13.

The reason I mentioned the parable of the sower, specifically, is because here Jesus expresses that some who receive His Word fall away. It doesn’t say that they never truly believed, but that they did in fact receive the Word but then later rejected it.

So, are we predestined in Christ? Yes. Can we lose faith and forfeit our salvation? Yes. Scriptures talk in both ways, which is why Lutherans confess, in short, that salvation is entirely by the will and work of God, and that damnation is entirely by the will and work of man. And just as we receive the doctrine of the trinity or the two natures of Christ as a Holy Mystery, so too, do we receive the works of God as a Holy Mystery.

 

[Soyeong]

The "We must" is what puts you under the law. I don't think that you understand the consequences of being under the law.

So apparently after spending virtually all of your time at this forum arguing against obeying God's law, you now finally agree that we should obey it because we want to, but you don't also agree that we should obey it because God is sovereign. Do you agree or disagree that God is sovereign? Or do you agree or disagree that we should obey God even if someone doesn't want to?

To be under the law is to be under God's wrath, Romans 4:15.

The fact that God's law brings wrath for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason for you to refuse to submit to it, unless bringing God's wrath on yourself is something you prefer.

Of course, you have probably already dismissed Paul as being a heretic.

In Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith establishes it, yet rather than establishing God's law by faith, you seek to abolish it, and in Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying God's law, so unlike you, I am in complete agreement with Paul.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Show me where you see Moses repenting of killing the Egyptian.

But really the main point is, which seems to escape you. The act of belief, trust, faith happens in a moment of time and which gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life at the very moment a person exercises faith in The Messiah believing God's promise. So tell me how an act of murder or any of the other listed sins in Revelation 21 negates the faith a person exercised in The Messiah at a point in their life after they have believed God's promise and trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

The Egyptian Moses killed was beating a Hebrew slave. God may have viewed it as a lawful killing or perhaps Moses repented of his sin. Either way it’s evident that God was not angry at Moses when He spoke to him at the Burning Bush.

So what your saying in the second paragraph is that we can do whatever we want as long as we believe that Jesus will save us? Is that what you think Jesus taught? If that’s your position then that would mean you don’t actually believe what Jesus said in Revelation 21:8.