How Does Jesus Save?

[RobertPate]

If Jesus saved us by doing something in us by the Holy Spirit, then there would not have been a need for the incarnation. Jesus could have stayed in heaven and could have sent the Holy Spirit into the world to transform people into his likeness. No life, death and resurrection of Jesus needed. Of course, that would never work because we are not saved by being like Jesus, although many believe that we are.

Jesus saves us, not by doing something in us, but by doing something that is totally and completely outside of us. Paul wrote, "But God commended his love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8. Our salvation took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. How does Jesus save us? Jesus saves us by fulfilling all of the demands of God's law. Jesus saves us by atoning for our sins. All that Jesus is, and all that Jesus did, was for our justification and our salvation.

This is why we are saved and justified by faith alone. The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. Before Jesus died on the cross, he said, "It's finished" what he meant by that is that salvation had been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. No one needs to be predestinated, no one needs to be holy. Salvation has been provided for all that do nothing more than call upon his name, Romans 10:13.

But many will say, no, we must be baptized, and others will say, we must keep the commandments, and then the Calvinist will say you must be predestinated. The "We musters" appear to be endless. All that is required of us is that we believe in Jesus, we believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, we believe that Jesus atoned for our sins. That's it. Nothing more is required. Salvation is by faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If Jesus saved us by doing something in us by the Holy Spirit, then there would not have been a need for the incarnation. Jesus could have stayed in heaven and could have sent the Holy Spirit into the world to transform people into his likeness. No life, death and resurrection of Jesus needed. Of course, that would never work because we are not saved by being like Jesus, although many believe that we are.

Your forgetting that the sins of the world still required a blood payment in order for the atonement to take place. So simply refraining from sin still wouldn’t have cleansed the sin we had already committed.

Jesus saves us, not by doing something in us, but by doing something that is totally and completely outside of us. Paul wrote, "But God commended his love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8. Our salvation took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. How does Jesus save us? Jesus saves us by fulfilling all of the demands of God's law. Jesus saves us by atoning for our sins. All that Jesus is, and all that Jesus did, was for our justification and our salvation.

By saying this your implying that we don’t have to believe and have faith. So if Jesus saved us by fulfilling the requirements of the law and by atoning for our sins and not by doing something in us but by doing something completely outside of us then why isn’t everyone saved? What separates those who are saved from those who are not saved? Repentance and faith is the answer which are not things outside of us and are things that Jesus has done in us.

This is why we are saved and justified by faith alone. The work of salvation has ALREADY been done. Before Jesus died on the cross, he said, "It's finished" what he meant by that is that salvation had been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. No one needs to be predestinated, no one needs to be holy. Salvation has been provided for all that do nothing more than call upon his name, Romans 10:13.

It is finished means that the perfect sacrifice for atonement was finished, it has nothing to do with our walk in the Spirit.

But many will say, no, we must be baptized, and others will say, we must keep the commandments, and then the Calvinist will say you must be predestinated. The "We musters" appear to be endless. All that is required of us is that we believe in Jesus, we believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, we believe that Jesus atoned for our sins. That's it. Nothing more is required. Salvation is by faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

So then we can just do whatever we want as long as we believe that Jesus atoned our sins and we will be saved? You think that’s what Jesus and the apostles taught?

Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation? The words “surely you will not die” come to mind. Genesis 3:4 Your theology is refuted throughout the scriptures and has been refuted by every church established by the apostles ever since it was created in the 16th century.

 

[RobertPate]

Your forgetting that the sins of the world still required a blood payment in order for the atonement to take place. So simply refraining from sin still wouldn’t have cleansed the sin we had already committed.



By saying this your implying that we don’t have to believe and have faith. So if Jesus saved us by fulfilling the requirements of the law and by atoning for our sins and not by doing something in us but by doing something completely outside of us then why isn’t everyone saved? What separates those who are saved from those who are not saved? Repentance and faith is the answer which are not things outside of us and are things that Jesus has done in us.



It is finished means that the perfect sacrifice for atonement was finished, it has nothing to do with our walk in the Spirit.



So then we can just do whatever we want as long as we believe that Jesus atoned our sins and we will be saved? You think that’s what Jesus and the apostles taught?

Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation? The words “surely you will not die” come to mind. Genesis 3:4 Your theology is refuted throughout the scriptures and has been refuted by every church established by the apostles ever since it was created in the 16th century.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are spiritually placed "In Christ" Ephesians 1:13. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of ownership. Once sealed always sealed. Paul wrote, "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God and not of the law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are spiritually placed "In Christ" Ephesians 1:13. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of ownership. Once sealed always sealed. Paul wrote, "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God and not of the law.

You didn’t answer my question. Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

 

[RobertPate]

You didn’t answer my question. Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

You should know that the Holy Spirit would never lead one to do such things.

 

[Der Alte]

You didn’t answer my question. Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

Romans 6:1-7
(1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The sins of all people past, present and future have been paid for once and for all.

Sin is not what causes a person to end up in the lake of fire. A failure to trust in The Messiah is the reason a person ends up in The Lake of fire.

 

[Soyeong]

If Jesus saved us by doing something in us by the Holy Spirit, then there would not have been a need for the incarnation. Jesus could have stayed in heaven and could have sent the Holy Spirit into the world to transform people into his likeness. No life, death and resurrection of Jesus needed. Of course, that would never work because we are not saved by being like Jesus, although many believe that we are.

Your claim is completely baseless. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, it describes what Jesus finished on the cross by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Hebrews 5:13, the Son became a source of eternal salvation for those that obey him.

Salvation has been provided for all that do nothing more than call upon his name, Romans 10:13.

In Romans 10:5-10 our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that those who obey it will attain life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. Furthermore, in Romans 10:16, it speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel, so you need to deliberately ignore the surrounding verses in order to claim that salvation has been provided for all that do nothing more than call upon his name, plus you need to ignore that the way to call upon his name is by obeying God's law.

All that is required of us is that we believe in Jesus, we believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for us, we believe that Jesus atoned for our sins. That's it. Nothing more is required. Salvation is by faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

While we need to believe in Jesus, you sadly have dedicated your time here towards arguing against believing in him. In Revelation 14:12, all those who believed in Jesus are people who kept God's commandments. You quote Luther by saying that salvation is by faith alone, but he said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so you reject the concept of salvation by faith alone that he taught.

 

[Soyeong]

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are spiritually placed "In Christ" Ephesians 1:13. The Holy Spirit is God's mark of ownership. Once sealed always sealed. Paul wrote, "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, but you want nothing to do with that.

It is all of God and not of the law.

God's law is all of God.

 

[Soyeong]

You should know that the Holy Spirit would never lead one to do such things.

So at last you agree that the Spirit leads us to obey God's law?

 

[Daniel9v9]

There's some confusion here, but the distinction between a grace that is outside of us versus a grace that is inside of us is very good and right. This is what we call Objective Justification.

Our Roman Catholic friends teach that grace is a God-given quality inside of us that enables us to believe and merit salvation. But the Lutheran and also to a large degree the Reformed and historic Anglican position is that even though we are sinners, God counts us as righteous in His sight because of the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, in other words, grace is not a quality or thing inside of us, but God's unmerited favour. To speak simply, Jesus died for us, so this means that when God looks at you, He doesn't see your sins, but the righteousness of His Son. Your sins were nailed to the cross in the body of Jesus! And this is God's promise to us that we receive by faith apart from works (which we call Justification proper, or sometimes Subjective Justification). So in this respect, what you've described is not controversial at all. It's the Gospel. It's the good news that Jesus suffered and died for us, that we may have life in Him.

Now, does this contradict Baptism or Predestination? Not at all! For Scriptures say that we are predestined in Christ and that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned.

As for keeping the commandments, Christ is the one who fulfilled the Law in our place, and through Him, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we now begin to love and obey God and His Word. But this is what we call Sanctification, wherein the Holy Spirit gradually moulds us into the image of Christ. But this has no bearing on Justification, which is already complete and is apprehended by faith alone.

Ephesians 1-2 summarises all of this fantastically, and with regard to the relationship between salvation (Justification) and works (Sanctification), it reads: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

 

[RobertPate]

So at last you agree that the Spirit leads us to obey God's law?

There are two ways to live the Christian life.

1. The life of we must, we must, we must.
2. The life of I want too, I want too, I want too.

You are a "We muster". Which is under the judgement of God because it is Phariseeism.

The life of "We want too" is the life of living in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Soyeong]

We should all follow Christ example of obedience to God’s law in accordance with the leading of the Spirit regardless of whether someone wants to or thinks that we must. While we should obey God’s law because we want to, such as because we love Him, God is sovereign, so we all still must obey Him even if someone doesn’t want to, which is why God has the authority to judge the whole world in Revelation. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so it is something that we must do regardless of whether or not it is also something that we want to do.

 

[RobertPate]

We should all follow Christ example of obedience to God’s law in accordance with the leading of the Spirit regardless of whether someone wants to or thinks that we must. While we should obey God’s law because we want to, such as because we love Him, God is sovereign, so we all still must obey Him even if someone doesn’t want to, which is why God has the authority to judge the whole world in Revelation. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so it is something that we must do regardless of whether or not it is also something that we want to do.

The "We must" is what puts you under the law. I don't think that you understand the consequences of being under the law. To be under the law is to be under God's wrath, Romans 4:15. Of course, you have probably already dismissed Paul as being a heretic.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You should know that the Holy Spirit would never lead one to do such things.

Again you are avoiding the question. Why can’t you just answer the question? I’ve asked this twice now and both times you decline to answer it.

Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 6:1-7
(1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭12‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Holy Spirit guides us to sanctification but we can grieve the Holy Spirit to the point of apostasy and losing our inheritance.

 

[RobertPate]

Again you are avoiding the question. Why can’t you just answer the question? I’ve asked this twice now and both times you decline to answer it.

Can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

Of course not. Simply because it is not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

The sins of all people past, present and future have been paid for once and for all.

Sin is not what causes a person to end up in the lake of fire. A failure to trust in The Messiah is the reason a person ends up in The Lake of fire.

So can we worship satan, rape, kill, cheat, lie, steel, using Christ’s atonement as an excuse for indulging in this type of behavior and still expect to receive salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your claim is completely baseless. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, it describes what Jesus finished on the cross by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Hebrews 5:13, the Son became a source of eternal salvation for those that obey him.



In Romans 10:5-10 our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that those who obey it will attain life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. Furthermore, in Romans 10:16, it speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel, so you need to deliberately ignore the surrounding verses in order to claim that salvation has been provided for all that do nothing more than call upon his name, plus you need to ignore that the way to call upon his name is by obeying God's law.



While we need to believe in Jesus, you sadly have dedicated your time here towards arguing against believing in him. In Revelation 14:12, all those who believed in Jesus are people who kept God's commandments. You quote Luther by saying that salvation is by faith alone, but he said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so you reject the concept of salvation by faith alone that he taught.

Amen not believing the consequences Jesus described for disobedience is not believing His words.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So at last you agree that the Spirit leads us to obey God's law?

Amen again, unfortunately we are still able to grieve the Holy Spirit which results in leading us away from sanctification and justification.