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How do you understand atonement

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Stryder06, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    succinct.
     
  2. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I agree completely. So what is that process and do we see it in the new testament?

    God required more than just a burnt offering for atonement. As you said at the beginning of your post, it was a process. What was that process?
     
  3. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Your gospel seems to be about an unfinished work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary.;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  4. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Again, it's not "my gospel" Crib. It's the gospel. As stated before, one can only truly understand atonement if they look at the example given by God in the sanctuary service. Of course, if you disagree with that, then that will make the discussion much harder to have. Christ isn't called our High Priest for nothing. His work was foreshadowed in types given to Israel, so for us to understand the reality, we must first understand those types.
     
  5. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    I think you're somewhat apprehensive to make your gospel plain.
     
  6. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I told you what the gospel is. My gospel is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The news of His life, death and resurrection. The testimony that He came to save sinners and is now our Heavenly High Priest. The one seated at the Right Hand of Power who ever lives to make intercession for us.

    What I'm apprehensive of is entering into a useless arguement. I've had my fill of those with you.
     
  7. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Before you procrastinate some more, let me reveal the source of your gospel.
    EGW: "In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."


    How do you explain away the true gospel saying that the sins of the world was place on Jesus?
     
  8. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    The gospels is not anyone private interpretation. You keep pointing to understanding of the ceromonies performed in the earthly sanctuary as if the scripture does not reveal all that Christ has done to atone for sin.

    Are you telling me that you did not want to enlighten us about atonement?
     
  9. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    No one said the sins of the world wern't placed upon Jesus.
    As I said, you can't understand the atonement if you don't understand the sanctuary service that prefigured it. Nothing Sr White said here contradicts the scriptures or the gospel message.
     
  10. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Clue: EGW said; the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; .

    That's a contradiction.

    What I need to understand from you is; how does satan become one of the two spotless goats.

    You have not saying anything we can define as truth about atonement. You've been pointing to the sanctuary service on earth as a mirror image of the heavenly service of the High Priest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  11. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    No it's not. Do you know what happened during the day of atonement?

    I'm pointing to the sanctuary because that's where we need to look. I'm not saying much because it's better for you to read it then for me to try to break it down for you. This way we can avoid the "your interpretation" scenario. What happened during the day of atonement? Even better, what happened to the sins of the people before the day of atonement? How were they paid for?
     
  12. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    :idea::idea::idea: CLUE: You said
    No one said the sins of the world wern't placed upon Jesus.
    EGW said:the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan
    I say it's a contradiction.... You say No.....
    What I want to know from you is; what does the bible say about it. (as if I dont already know)
    Your strategic question is a diversionary technique (you're good at it).
    You're good with that Q game. The fact is Stryder, you're pointing to nothing of substance because the word of God would contradict your gospel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  13. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    It's really not a diversioinary tactic. If you would answer my question, at minimal, I could show you how I understand this subject. The reason why I'm not throwing scripture at you is because I want to avoid the "your interpretation" and "my text beats your texts" exchanges that typically follow suit. The questions I'm asking are easily answered with scripture if you're willing to look them up.

    The entire sanctuary service (not just the day of atonment) was a type of the service that was to meet it's fulfillment in Christ. If you would simply answer my questions, it would make the process of understanding easier. And it's very sad that you would consider the sanctuary to be "nothing of substance".
     
  14. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Stryder, what comes after answering your questions are more questions.

    The reason I ask for scriptures is to better understand the foundation from which your dialog is based. And it also witness whether someone is using scriptures as cover for commentary.
    You can bet I've read Hebrews 8,9,10 and other scriptures several times to confirm the facts on Christ's atonement.

    CLUE: If you wanted to reveal truths why not just post the references, then explain your knowledge?

    CLUE: When the scriptures settle within you; you will know that the ceromonies of the earthly sanctuary signified cleansing and sacrifices; using animals and bloods. These ceromonies are not replicated in the heavenly sanctuary.

    CLUE: Commentary that gives you doctrine about the contents of the ark and pending atonement in heaven should be subjected to the scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  15. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I have a series of questions that eventually lead to an explanation. We never get that far though because you keep trying to second guess what I'm going to say. Like all of these responses from you are just a waste of time. Had you answered my initial question we could have moved forward, and possible reached the point of explanation.

    I've read Hebrews 8,9, and 10 as well, along with other scripture. Like I said though, I don't want to enter a scriptural battle. I'm assuming my initial question is basic, and you can explain faily easily.

    Because if it were that simple we wouldn't be here. It's better if you look up and read the verses yourself, than it is for me to do it for you.

    The scriptures have settled within me. I never said these ceremonies were being replecated in heaven. Of course we'd have gotten past this by now if you would stop trying to tell me what I think/know, and simply answer my questions.

    As they are. Of course, again, you're the one appealing to commentary as my source of understanding. I stated we should look at the sanctuary. That's biblical. I asked you how were the sins of the people dealt with pre day of atonment. The answer there is biblical. If you wouldn't mind could you please answer that question? We won't be able to move forward before then.
     
  16. Cribstyl

    Cribstyl Veteran

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    Like I said, your commentary is pointing to the worldly sanctuary services because it a SDA doctrine. You're saying that Christ's works as High Priest is to foreshadow's the earthly types..........



    The scriptures proves thatPaul taught; what happened in the earthly sanctuary was a figure that signified the time (under the first covenant) when sacrifices was accepted in the worldly service.


    Hbr 9:1Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
    Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
    Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
    Hbr 9:11¶But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;





    Christ has become High Priest of a more perfect tabernacle
    Stryder, no ceromonies of a goat will be killed and the setting free of a scape goat. No calves will be killed, no purifying of the sanctuary.



    Hbr 9:12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
    Hbr 9:13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:



    Correct answers to your Q games allows your commentary to compare the worldly ceromonies for sin with Christ onetime and completed ceromony for sin in the heavenly sanctuary. ...............

    ....allowing your commentary to imply that Christ's atonement was not finalized.
    RRRRRRRRRRipping my tunic.
     
  17. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I haven't said anything Crib. And you have it backwards. The earthly types foreshadowed Christ.

    Right. They were figures. We've been established that. Why can't you simply answer my question?

    You are mixing shadow with substance. As I said before, you can't understand the heavenly service if you don't understand the pattern that was given to us that points to that which was to come.


    Crib, the sanctuary service pointed to the work Christ was coming to do. You can't accept part of that service and not the rest, and chalk up every other explanation you get as "commentary" that goes against your understanding.
     
  18. tall73

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    Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.

    Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.


    The people are the issue all the way through, even when cleansing the sanctuary.

    The sin offering is for the people.

    It is the uncleanness of the people, all their sins, that causes the uncleanness of the sanctuary to begin with, because it is in the misdt of their uncleanness.


    Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.


    Morevoer:

    Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.



     
  19. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    The Adventist belief statement indicates that the cleansing by blood of the sanctuary is what was begun in 1844.

    In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus


    This is the portion already accomplished in the first century:

    Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
    Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered
    , not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
    Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
    Heb 1:3b After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
     
  20. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high


     
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