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How do you understand atonement

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Stryder06, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    It says when he finished making atonement for them.

    Incidentally, that is why Jesus sat, which the priest never did. Jesus made purification for sins before sitting. Then He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool.


    Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


    Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
    Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
    Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
    Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    He is not doddling, rather He is waiting for the next step.

    He already completed the death, entry into God's presence and offering of Himself for purfication of sins.

    Now, speaking of doddling, you have over 165 years of investigation which was never even pictured in the type. The priest didn't examine things in the sanctuary, he made purificiation.


    Stryde the book makes it plain. it presents the type in vs 7 and the fulfillment in 23-25. He did go to the MHP because it compares the entrance to that of the high priest on the DOA, which included the most holy place.

    And the investigating books was not part of what happened in the sanctuary on the DOA. Show is FROM THE DOA type where the high priest investigates books in the sanctuary.

    We can and have showed you were Jesus fulfilled what is actually there, death, entry, offering of His sacrifice for the purification of the heavenly things.
     
  2. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    You think the final burnt offering that makes atonement....is the destruction of the wicked?

    Come on now. You don't think that it, along with all the sacrifices, was about Jesus?
     
  3. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    So you are ignoring the book of Hebrews which even you acknowledged directly addressed the DOA, and are only looking at the type?

    However, you have not even gotten that right. There is no investigation of books in the sanctuary in the DOA type.
     
  4. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I shouldn't sound surprised that you are willing to openly state you are going to keep it simple by not looking at biblical texts that have a bearing on it, and are going to go with Ellen White?

    Do you believe the Adventist fundamental beliefs or not?

    1. Holy Scriptures:
    The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)



    18. The Gift of Prophecy:
    One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)


    How can you affirm the above which gives the primary place to the Scriptures and still tell us you are afraid to look at the Bible because you might be confused by me over what they say?

    Do you put the Bible as primary or not?

    Is the Bible the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested or not?


    So the Scriptures are now "cold hard facts"?
     
  5. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    Stryder, perhaps it may be helpful to others which have not yet rejected this, to explain why the spirit of prophecy is needed, and why the Bible points us to it in conjunction with itself, iow why "to the Law" and "to the Testimony".

    It may help others which have not yet rejected this, to see that the Bible actually says that it is needful for us to have the spirit of prophecy, and that without it, we would be majorly "blind", and without "eyesight" and in much "darkness". Also that the spirit of prophecy is a "gift" and "light" unto God's people.

    And, having come across this recently, the Ten Commandments being in the Ark, and the Testimony in the side of the Ark, being In the Most Holy Place, isn't it truly awesome, to fit the type, that once the Most Holy Place was open for the Day of Atonement in Revelation/Daniel,etc [1844, the end of the 2,300 days [evening mornings]], that the Testimony of Jesus is once again seen amongst God's people? A true prophet in the midst. Satan was expecting it, for all the manner of false prophets which arose in the same era... that we would receive the message in Revelation 10, to prophesy again, even after the 7 thunders...

    So many think it dangerous to speak about a prophet, or to trust what they say as in harmony with the Word and all before them, or to repeat what was given unto them by inspiration, but the Bible reveals that we should not fear to do so, for Daniel read and understood Jeremiah, and Jeremiah knew of Isaiah, and John the Baptist [a lesser light pointing to the greater] of them each, and John the Apostle, even of them... quoting them all.
     
  6. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    The problem is not with prophecy. The Bible speaks of prophecy. That does not remove the need to test it by the Bible.


    That is what Stryder stated he is concerned about.

    He is afraid the Bible may lead him astray.


    Stryder, if you are afraid of the Bible you need to re-evaluate.

    When the devil used scripture wrongly, did Christ avoid using the Bible? No, He quoted scripture properly to address Satan.

    It is written.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  7. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Please show us in the type of the Day of Atonement where it describes the priest in the temple examining books.


    Otherwise, you are not getting this just from type.
     
  8. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    There seems to be a misunderstanding of the Investigative Judgment, it was not the High Priest [Aaron] in the type that searched the hearts, but God [Psalms 44:21, 139:23; Jeremiah 17:10; Zephaniah 1:12, etc], for God is the Judge.

    Jesus Christ is both Highpriest [man] and God [the Son] [Hebrews 1, 2, 3:1, 4:14, 5:5, 13:8, etc throughout]

    "Books" [of records, etc] are utilized in the Investigative Judgment:

    "I beheld till the thrones were cast down [set into place], and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire." Dainel 7:9

    "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set [seated], and the books were opened." Daniel 7:10

    Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Daniel 7:22

    Judgment in favor before possession, for the saints.

    "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14

    And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

    Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7

    Daniel - God is Judge.
    Laodicea - Judging the People, Judgment begins at the house of God [1 Peter 4:17], that is, with those professed believers.
    Day of Atonement - The time of Judgment, who would remain, who would be cut of.

    This happens before the 2nd Advent of Jesus, for when He comes it is to "execute judgment" already made:

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints [angels, holy ones], Jude 1:14

    To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 1:15

    Consider Ezekiel 9 for a type, of the time of searching the people, and sealing them...

    Consider also Matthew 22:

    "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:" Matthew 22:11

    Notice the King comes in to "see" [inspect] the guests, and addresses the person as "friend", as He had done also to Judas. A "Friend" is one claiming to follow Jesus and know Him, both were found be false.
     
  9. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Actually, what we are asking is where you see this judgment regarding books in the Day of Atonement type where the priest is in the sanctuary, as that is what the Adventist fundamental belief indicates.

    24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
    There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

    The question is, where does the Day of Atonement type show the priest conducting an investigative judgment of books?



     
  10. Cribstyl

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    It's explains how the services in the first covenant pointed to sinfulness of people.
    And God has no desire for these sacrifices to be offered up anymore. My argument is that; these services are not in any way a shadow of the new covenant. The scriptures say the servics served until the time of reform.
    You're presenting this doctrine without scripture as a foundation.




    1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
    2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
    3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
    4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
    "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
    BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

    6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

    7"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
    (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
    TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"

    8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
    9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
    10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
    12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
    13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
    14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.


    The scriptures say that Christ's one offering did it all. Trying to explain the significance of the services under the law is contrary to the scriptures.

    What we need to know is what Christ did.
     
  11. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    There were multiple "daily" [continual/perpetual/daily/cyclical] things to do in the service of the whole Sanctuary, as it is written, "...ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..." [Hebrews 9:1].

    There was the "daily" service which took place in the Courtyard, with all of the "burnt offerings" which took place at various times according to the events, but in general there was a "burnt offering" and/or "lamb" and/or "meat offering" "day by day" [Exodus 29:38] in both the "evening" [Exodus 29:39,41; Numbers 28:4,8; 1 Chronicles 16:40; Ezra 3:3,4] and the "morning" [Exodus 29:39,41; Numbers 28:4,8; 1 Chronicles 16:40; Ezra 3:3,4; Ezekiel 46:13,14,15] times, besides all of the other times [Exodus 29:38-42; Leviticus 6:12,13,20; Numbers 4:16; 28:2-10,14-15, 23-24,31, 29:6,11,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,38; 1 Chronicles 16:40, 23:28-31; 2 Chronicles 24:14; Ezra 3:2-5; Nehemiah 10:33; Psalms 50:8; Ezekiel 46:14-16].

    Was this Courtyard service the only "daily" service to do? No.

    There was also the "daily" service which took place in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle/Sanctuary behind the first veil, wherein "...[was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread..." [Hebrews 9:2] and also having the "altar of incense" [Exodus 30:27].

    In Exodus 25:30, we see that "the table" [Exodus 35:13, 39:36], the "table of shewbread", "shewbread table" [2 Chronicles 29:18], "the tables whereon the shewbread [was set]" [2 Chronicles 4:19], the "pure table" [2 Chronicles 13:11]; the "table of gold" [1 Kings 7:48] was to be "set upon" "alway" ["continually/perpetually/daily"] with the "continual shewbread" [Numbers 4:3,7; 2 Chronicles 2:4], set "before the LORD" [1 Samuel 21:6] which was replaced/refreshed every week's end on the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Leviticus 25:4-9; 1 Samuel 21:6; 1 Chronicles 9:32], even as Numbers 4:7 and 1 Samuel 21:3-6 [see also Matthew 12:3-4; Mark 2:25-26; Luke 6:3-4 in conjunction] verifies.

    In fact, the Highpriest [Aaron] was in type to wear a mitre with a golden plackard, "continually", and was to bear "the names of the Children of Israel" [Exodus 28:29] upon Himself when He "goeth in unto the Holy [place]" [Exodus 28:29], "before the LORD" [Exodus 28:30].

    But also in the Holy Place, besides the changing of the Shewbread on the 7th day, every week "continually", there was also to be the "daily" [day by day; perpetually] service/upkeep of the "Oil", "Lamp" and "Incense" [Exodus 27:20,21, 30:1-10; Leviticus 24:2-4] and these too were to happen from "evening" [Exodus 27:21, 30:7] to "morning" [Exodus 27:21, 30:8].

    Even moreso, in the wilderness wanderings, before entering into the Promised Land, The Son of God was "alway" [daily; Numbers 9:16] in the Pillar of Cloud/Fire [Numbers 9:15,16,21], in both the "evening" [Numbers 9:15,16,21] and the "morning" [Numbers 9:15,16,21].

    As an additional insight, we also see that David, later in time, had set up priest muscians to minster "continually" [1 Chronicles 16:6,37] "before the Ark" as "every day's work required".

    There are clearly two services dealing with the "daily".

    Which "daily" [Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11] does Daniel then speak of, in regards to the vision of the "evenings and mornings" [Daniel 8:13-14,26]?

    The "daily" of the "Courtyard", or the "daily" or the "Holy Place"?

    It is the "Daily" services/ministrations of the Holy Place of the Heavenly Tabernacle, since the placement of the "daily" in the "vision" reveals that the things take place long after the ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven itself, and had already begun His High Priestly ministration there after Pentecost, and was happening long after the "sacrifice" [on earth, the Courtyard] was made.
     
  12. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    http://www.christianforums.com/t7737410-14/#post63152152
    Since it is now plainly given, from scripture itself, that there are two places in the Sanctuary to which a "daily" occured, Christ Jesus having fulfilled the one in the Courtyard upon this earth, in regards to the "burnt offering" or "lamb", etc by His sinless life unto His death at the Cross in the New Testament, then we must also of necessity see Him fulfill the second "daily" also, which is to take place not in the Courtyard, but in the Holy Place. Where shall we find this in the New Testament?

    Let us look in Revelation.

    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Revelation 12:5

    Christ Jesus ascended into Heaven [3rd] from Mt. Olivet [Acts 1], but He was not yet anointed as Highpriest until Pentecost, and then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Head, down unto the Body, as type [Aaron] and Psalms reveal [Psalms 133:1-3].

    In Revelation 4, we see God the Father, 4 living creatures and the 24 elders, but Christ Jesus and the angelic host is not yet seen, until Revelation 5. We may consider also Psalms 24, where Christ Jesus ascends in glorious refrain!

    In Revelation 4 we see which place of the Tabernacle? The Holy or Most Holy? Verily it is the Holy Place, to which Jesus ascended, since He must of necessity fulfill the "daily" in this location as type showed He must/would. Daniel saw this work...


    In Revelation 1-3, we see Jesus among which articles of the Sanctuary? The Golden Candlesticks, which was in the Holy Place.

    And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 1:12

    And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Revelation 1:13

    The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20

    During the First Church Era, we see yet again:

    Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1

    The First Veil is opened unto the Holy Place:

    After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1

    God the Father, in the Holy Place:

    And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Revelation 4:5

    Christ Jesus comes from Ascending from Mt. Olivet to the Father in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Tabernacle, Where the Father and Son are, as the Golden Crowned Table of Shewbread with two stacks, the Throne of God in the Holy Place, and begins His Highpriestly Minstry there, all the while until the 2,300 days/years [Daniel 8:13-14,26] of Daniel are finished...:

    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

    Holy Spirit sent forth at Pentecost:

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Revelation 5:6

    etc, etc...

    Altar of Incense at the beginning of the 7 Trumpets, which has the same beginning era as the 7 Churches and 7 Seals:


    And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Revelation 8:3

    And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Revelation 8:4

    etc, etc...

    Then a door is shut after so long a time, in the 6th Church Era, end of the 2,300 day/years of Daniel [457 BC - AD 1844], and another door is opened, the Ministration of the Holy Place is done and then commenced the Most Holy Place work of Christ Jesus...


    And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7

    I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8

    No man, not even satan and all the forces of evil, can shut the door to the Most Holy Place, no matter how much weeping and wailing and gnashing and cursing all swearing that it is not open unto us, they cannot hide it... and no matter how much it is warred against... it cannot be shut, except by God. Soon, enough... that door of probation will close... [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; James 5:9, Matthew 24:33; Mark 13:29; etc]...

    Christ Jesus moves from the Holy Place ["daily" accomplished], into the Most Holy Place [restoration, cleansing]...


    And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Revelation 11:19

    etc, etc...

    Passover fulfilled, Unleavened Bread fufilled, FirstFruits/Wavesheaf fulfilled, Pentecost fulfilled...

    ...long period of time...

    ...Trumpets Blown in warning...

    ...and now we are in...

    The Day of Atonement... while the Everlasting Gospel goes forward to all the Earth... Judgment is now come...


    And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

    Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Revelation 14:7

    The Scapegoat, Satan... will soon be brought forward, and led out into the wilderness, the desolated earth...

    Revelation 20...

    ...
     
  13. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    Yet that statement is a misunderstanding, since Christ Jesus is both Priest and King - like as after the order of Melchizedek...

    Christ Jesus no longer has to "stand" in the Courtyard ministering...

    Upon Christ Jesus ascension and arrival and anointing...

    ...the King Sits upon the Throne of Grace [1 Corinthians 15:25; Hebrews 1:3, 10:12, 12:2 ["sat" and "set down at the right hand of God"; after the "sacrifice", which "sacrifice" takes place in the courtyard "daily" or is this disputed yet still?, and not the Holy Place "daily" which we see the Candlesticks, Altar of Incense and Table/Throne of Shewbread],

    ...the Priest Stands in the Holy Place to Minister in the "daily" there [Acts 7:55-56; "standing at the right hand of God"; even as seen in Revelation 1-3, etc... "who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" Revelaton 2:1]...
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  14. Cribstyl

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    Timeout, timeout, timeout :yellowcard: Heb 9 makes it clear that the blood of bulls and goats was part of first(old) covenant. CLUE: These services were not given as part of the second(new) covenant.NLT - Hbr 9:1 -That first covenant between God and Israel had regulations for worship and a place of worship here on earth.

     
  15. Leuko Petra

    Leuko Petra Following The Lamb

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    It is not the "blood of bulls and goats" [Type; Shadow] that Jesus was to minister in the Heavenly Holy Place for so long a time, but by His own blood [shed; Anti-Type; Reality, Substance] He did so -

    "...but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place..." [Hebrews 9:12;p]

    Heb 9:12 ουδεG3761 CONJ-N διG1223 PREP αιματοςG129 N-GSN τραγωνG5131 N-GPM καιG2532 CONJ μοσχωνG3448 N-GPM διαG1223 PREP δεG1161 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSN ιδιουG2398 A-GSN αιματοςG129 N-GSN εισηλθενG1525 V-2AAI-3S εφαπαξG2178 ADV ειςG1519 PREP ταG3588 T-APN αγιαG40 A-APN αιωνιανG166 A-ASF λυτρωσινG3085 N-ASF ευραμενοςG2147 V-2AMP-NSM

    Ta Hagia = The Holy, or simply Holy Place, or more simply Sanctuary, referencing through the First Veil, not the Second.

     
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