How do you resolve unbelief?

[Elle12]

so since fruit has an apparent function meant to serve humanity (feeding). or any organ actually (eyes to make animal able to see). then they are also evidence for design? on the other hand we also have designed objects that its seems to be non functional by itself (like a paint). so a paint isnt evidence for design too?

No - all of these examples are flawed. Although we do eat fruit, it did not evolve to be eaten. Most fruits evolved as a mechanism of reproduction, of holding and dispersing seeds. Although humans and other animals can eat fruits, that is usually a mechanism of their evolution and not the other way around. Organs are not organisms; they don't reproduce on their own, and they are part of an organism, so the 'evolution' of an organ is representative of the evolution of the organism they are part of. Paint, on the other hand, is a tool, made for a specific function (to paint). I don't understand how you can say it seems to be non-functional.

why its so unlikely to evolve by natural selection? if a watch can evolve by natural selection why not a watch with english notations? i see no real difference. its even possible that human will use such a watch because he like these notations that evolved by mutations so he will take this kind of watch and keep it.

Again, as I said originally, the context behind how the organism developed is important, and makes all the difference. If we know it was built in a factory, design is evident. If we have evidence that humans interacted with the organism in a way to influence its evolution in such a way that you describe, that is evidence towards selection - but there is debate over whether or not such selection is "natural" or not. Does that qualify as design? For example, the domestic dog has evolved from wild canids, but under selection heavily influenced by human breeders. Does that mean that we created dogs? It depends on your perspective, and your definitions. Regardless, domestic dogs would not have evolved as they are today without human intervention.

The context is critical, and you keep changing the context. Did we just find it on Mars, or have we been cultivating this wild organic watch's genetics through selective breeding? Regardless, it's a scenario that really doesn't give us much useful information in what we're looking at.

beside what i said above to how a watch can evolve naturally, lets say that you are right about this specific watch. what about a walking robot (human)? also note that we dont know if there was a function in any step during the flagellum evolution. so what you said about a watch we can say about flalgellum too. scientists only have theories to how the flagellum evolve. they cant prove them. so i can also have a theory how a watch can evolve. so again i see no real difference between a flagellum and a watch evolution.

That you can't see the difference between a necessary function of life (movement) and a tool for human use (watch) doesn't mean there is no difference.

You're also using "theory" inconsistently. Your theories are all hypotheticals, based off of ideas that can't be proven wrong but have no empirical evidence, versus theories well-accepted by the scientific community with heaps of peer-reviewed data and evidence supporting them.

but some steps to echolocation will need at least several parts to be functional. for instance hearing isnt a simple function. its like a special sensor that can detect sound waves. we know that such a sensor will need at least several parts. we cant made such a sensor by a single part.

I challenge your statement that hearing isn't a simple function, and I challenge its relevance. What do you mean by "simple"? Sound waves and vibrations provide valuable information, just like light waves. The ability to interpret such things is usually beneficial to organisms that can use them to find food, mates, shelter, etc, and organisms with those abilities live to pass those genetics on. That might start with a rudimentary tympanic membrane, and evolve into something that resembles the human ear over time with small adjustments. Just because devices that we have created require 'several parts' to successfully interpret sound doesn't mean that it's impossible for a living organism to evolve something that does the same thing.

 

[drich0150]

I think you've misunderstood my statement. When I said you wouldn't knock on a door to an empty house, what I mean is that I have been knocking for some time and the house is apparently empty. I've never seen someone go in or out of the house. I've never seen someone through the window. I've never met anyone who has said they live there. Some of my neighbors have told me they know the person who lives there, but I've been knocking for five years and no one has ever answered. Would you keep knocking, then? For how long?

I have studied the parable. It would certainly be different if I were hearing my neighbor telling me to go away, or if I could shadows under the door. Or even if I had ever met Him. But I haven't. I've never met anyone who has sought as I have with absolutely no answer.

Again, I will 'continue.' But I am constantly discouraged, and there seems to be nothing to encourage me.

And I think you misunderstood my statement as well. I did not say you where not knocking on an empty house. but if you read the parable it should be that of your neighbor in this case God. Make no mistake God will not open a door he does not want you to pass through. religion offers many doors God does not want us to pass through.So as you said you can knock for years, and no one will open, but again, an open door is not the only goal. like I pointed out knocking is a life time goal. as we will never full encapsulate a infinite God.

First thing first though ask and seek for the door you should be knocking on.

If the Goal is to receive a measure of the holy Spirit seek out a religion that presents with the Holy Spirit. Not talking about a church that passes around snakes or hands out poison to drink or even one that even falls down on the floor. I would start by looking through your bible for identifiers that show the presence of the holy spirit.

 

[xianghua]

The context is critical, and you keep changing the context. Did we just find it on Mars

yep. say that we find a self replicating robot\watch on mars. according to evolution it can evolve naturally and thus doesnt need design. but its only a belief since we cant realy prove that. also remember that according to atheism the whole universe was made by a natural process. thus even a regular plastic robot (that cant reproduce) is actually the end result of a natural process.

You're also using "theory" inconsistently. Your theories are all hypotheticals, based off of ideas that can't be proven wrong but have no empirical evidence, versus theories well-accepted by the scientific community with heaps of peer-reviewed data and evidence supporting them.

its still need belief since we cant realy prove it. you cant prove that human evolved from a fish.

Just because devices that we have created require 'several parts' to successfully interpret sound doesn't mean that it's impossible for a living organism to evolve something that does the same thing.

ok. its again just a belief. you believe that hearing system can evolve stepwise. but as far as we know any such system will need at least several parts: a part that can detect sound wave, and a parts that can process it for the creature etc:

(image from The Ear Parts, Functions and Hearing Process - ppt video online download)

 

[Elle12]

yep. say that we find a self replicating robot\watch on mars. according to evolution it can evolve naturally and thus doesnt need design. but its only a belief since we cant realy prove that. also remember that according to atheism the whole universe was made by a natural process. thus even a regular plastic robot (that cant reproduce) is actually the end result of a natural process.

its still need belief since we cant realy prove it. you cant prove that human evolved from a fish.

ok. its again just a belief. you believe that hearing system can evolve stepwise. but as far as we know any such system will need at least several parts: a part that can detect sound wave, and a parts that can process it for the creature etc:

(image from The Ear Parts, Functions and Hearing Process - ppt video online download)

I respect that you have these beliefs - I'm not trying to convince you out of them - but there is so much logical evidence for these evolutionary theories that are as well-regarded as truths. Yes, there is some 'faith' required to overcome the uncertainty, but it's a much smaller gap from, "All of this evidence points towards natural selection being the causation behind evolution as we know it, so I believe it is probably true" than it is to believe in God because the Bible says so, or because we don't have any better theories to explain the gaps in our knowledge. My problem is that there is no evidence for God's existence, very little to support Jesus and his miracles as are stated in the Bible, and I can't find any reason to believe that God is real.

I do believe that every question you've stated has a reasonable answer under evolutionary theory, but I'm not trying to give you a lesson on evolutionary theory and how natural selection works. I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm looking for a reason to believe, and a reason to keep looking.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I respect that you have these beliefs - I'm not trying to convince you out of them - but there is so much logical evidence for these evolutionary theories that are as well-regarded as truths. Yes, there is some 'faith' required to overcome the uncertainty, but it's a much smaller gap from, "All of this evidence points towards natural selection being the causation behind evolution as we know it, so I believe it is probably true" than it is to believe in God because the Bible says so, or because we don't have any better theories to explain the gaps in our knowledge. My problem is that there is no evidence for God's existence, very little to support Jesus and his miracles as are stated in the Bible, and I can't find any reason to believe that God is real.

I do believe that every question you've stated has a reasonable answer under evolutionary theory, but I'm not trying to give you a lesson on evolutionary theory and how natural selection works. I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm looking for a reason to believe, and a reason to keep looking.

Elle, maybe also challenge the whole notion of what "evidence" is and what it is epistemologically supposed to amount to. It might not be as clear cut at it is often made out to be. Maybe read a little Philosophy of Science and Philosophy of History? Maybe? Just a suggestion rather than to tell you to keep kick'n the I.D. thing around. That's not where the locus of all of this should be.

 

[Elle12]

Elle, maybe also challenge the whole notion of what "evidence" is and what it is epistemologically supposed to amount to. It might not be as clear cut at it is often made out to be. Maybe read a little Philosophy of Science and Philosophy of History? Maybe? Just a suggestion rather than to tell you to keep kick'n the I.D. thing around. That's not where the locus of all of this should be.

Cogito ergo sum. Philosophy is where I got into trouble in the first place, haha. Any specific books or texts you would suggest?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Cogito ergo sum. Philosophy is where I got into trouble in the first place, haha. Any specific books or texts you would suggest?

Philosophy is where you got into trou.....................? Oh, do tell! Do tell!

I have a reading list, but I hate the idea of tossing books at people in a hit-n-miss fashion, as if a book that has helped me would most certainly help someone else. No, if people will permit, I tend to think it's better to analyze as close to exactly as possible just what aspect of the thinking process is tripping a person up most, and then offer something that may give pause for additional considerations which haven't as yet been engaged, even if those considerations won't by all counts provide a solution.

 

[ldonjohn]

Elle, may I suggest that you change your focus from whatever seems logical or not, or from someone said this or that, or from history proves something or not, or from the lack of convincing evidence, etc. to focus on searching for whatever it is you need that will convince you that God is real and that the bible is true in the only place that truth can be found. That place is, of course, the bible. No one on this forum can convince you of the truth of the bible or of the existence of God.

I think you said that you read the bible and nothing happens, or something like that, but the truth IS there. You just haven't seen it yet. I suggest that you clear your mind of all these questions and begin to read the bible with the attitude that with the help of the Holy Spirit you WILL find there whatever it is that you need to be convinced that it is the truth.
The truth IS there and so is the evidence of the truth. The Holy Spirit is the only one who can and will convince you of that truth and provide you with the evidence you need.
If you will read one chapter in the Gospel of John each day you will read the entire book in 21 days. It explains who Jesus is. If, after you have read the entire Gospel of John, you are not convinced of the truth that is there then read it again and again until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes so that you can see the truth. Approach God as one who is desperate to know Him and to know the truth about believing in Jesus, and ask Him to show you the truth. That's what I did and I was completely convinced that God is real, that the bible is the truth, and that Jesus had already paid my sin penalty for me.
John

 

[xianghua]

I respect that you have these beliefs - I'm not trying to convince you out of them - but there is so much logical evidence for these evolutionary theories that are as well-regarded as truths. Yes, there is some 'faith' required to overcome the uncertainty, but it's a much smaller gap from, "All of this evidence points towards natural selection being the causation behind evolution as we know it, so I believe it is probably true" than it is to believe in God because the Bible says so, or because we don't have any better theories to explain the gaps in our knowledge. My problem is that there is no evidence for God's existence, very little to support Jesus and his miracles as are stated in the Bible, and I can't find any reason to believe that God is real.

I do believe that every question you've stated has a reasonable answer under evolutionary theory, but I'm not trying to give you a lesson on evolutionary theory and how natural selection works. I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm looking for a reason to believe, and a reason to keep looking.

so maybe please tell me what kind of evidence will convince you that god\design is real? you already said (as far as i remember) that even a self replicating robot\watch (with DNA) by itself isnt evidence for design. so i dont see how anything could be evidence for design under that criteria. any
suggestions?

 

[Pulchra]

You have nothing to worry about really, there`s no higher being for example, but being good and kind is the important thing

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

... shalom ....

 

[renniks]

?? Really?? I never heard this before. And most people never find the truth according to Scripture (and as seen all around us) .....

Most people want the truth, however many settle for their own opinions as being true. Take morality. At least in most cases, people want to believe that their ideas are moral, rarely they do they just say, "who cares about morality", instead they try to explain to you why their brand of morality is the right one. it's kind of like the saying everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die... Everybody wants the truth but many people just settle for their truth

 

[Sketcher]

All things are possible for the one who believes, but what happens when you can't find faith?

The Bible says that salvation through faith is a gift from God, and this speaks to me. I don't feel that faith and belief is a conscious choice that I can make; my belief comes from what I know to be true, based on what I have seen, heard, and felt. Without the work of God, we could not believe in the gospel to be saved. I feel no more able to choose to believe in God than I could choose to believe that I will not see the sun set today. Yet, the gospels condemn those without belief. I pray that God might open my mind to the truth of the matter, while sustaining my patience and persistence.

What is the path for those that do not believe, but want to? What is the response to those who have tried for years without success?

I once struggled with very strong doubts. They were really just faith in lies I was believing. Even though I knew they were destructive in my life, I still believed them because they made sense. I had to choose to believe what Scripture said instead. I had to open my mind to the possibility that Scripture was right, and what I had been believing was wrong.

Before you believe something, your mind has to be somewhat open to it first. If your mind is closed, no evidence can convince you. That opening of the mind is a choice that can be made. Taking claims that you don't believe yet seriously is another choice that can be made. You immerse yourself in the new information, consider everything, and then you may or may not have changed beliefs.

 

[Emsmom1]

Elle12, I just want to say that I have been exactly where you are now. I began searching over 10 years ago and went through intense periods of reading, praying, meeting with various pastors of various denominations, corresponding with PhDs in theology, etc.--and nothing. And I was so frustrated because some people get signs, right? Like Saul/Paul or Kirsten Powers. But I got nothing. And I still kept coming back and trying to figure it out (I'm a researcher by training, so I really thought if I tried hard enough I could, in fact, figure it out).
So, recently I began a conversation via email with a friend that has a PhD in Theology. I had so many questions and at one point he said to me: "... if you really didn't believe any of this at all, then you wouldn't be anxious. It seems to me someone would only be anxious because he either believed something to be true, or because he believed that it had a reasonable possibility of being true." I thought about this for a while but was still struggling. Things got worse when he (kindly!) wondered whether I was, in fact, resisting God because I did not want the consequences of belief. I spent the night sobbing on the floor-I felt like I was doing my "part" by reading, praying, etc.-what more could God ask of me?
Finally, one night I was replaying in my mind a conversation I had with my best friend (a lapsed Catholic) who had said he thought my "religious fixation" would resolve itself soon enough and-in my mind- I said to him "No, I know in my heart it's true!" And I realized I meant it. I was frantically seeking God, trying to find answers to all the unanswerable questions (why would God allow the Holocaust is a big one for me) and I thought I could only believe once I figured everything out. But I realized that is simply not true.
A couple of bible verses that helped me out: “Be still, and know that I am God” ( Psalm 46 :10). “I believe; help my unbelief” (Mark 9:24).
Try being still; sometimes feeling the need to be busy (reading, researching) is a fear-based distraction from what you'd be forced to acknowledge and feel if you slowed down--okay, I will admit that's a quote from a Facebook post, but I liked it.
And not everything is resolved for me. I thought that I'd believe and then, boom, everything would change. It hasn't worked like that for me (although I think it does for some people). I have a feeling it's going to be my path to struggle. And I don't understand why other people don't struggle quite so much.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And not everything is resolved for me. I thought that I'd believe and then, boom, everything would change. It hasn't worked like that for me (although I think it does for some people). I have a feeling it's going to be my path to struggle. And I don't understand why other people don't struggle quite so much.

As Jesus said, we must become like little children - no doubts, no anxiety, no fear, no wondering "why" something happened - free from all those sins of the flesh and all other sins as well...
Christianity is not just accepting that the Bible is truth, it is so much more than that.

Things got worse when he (kindly!) wondered whether I was, in fact, resisting God because I did not want the consequences of belief.

Most people have this quandry.... they WANT to believe, BUT DON'T WANT to pay the cost.

I said to him "No, I know in my heart it's true!" And I realized I meant it.

Conscience is WONDERFUL ! God gave us our conscience and He convicts us as He Says. ....

I was frantically seeking God, trying to find answers to all the unanswerable questions (why would God allow the Holocaust is a big one for me)

... but we don't always realize we must trust God concerning everything, to have a clear conscience. And as written in Romans, in harmony with all Scripture - not just be hearers of His Word, but we must be DOERS of His Word also - we must LIVE AS HE SAYS DAILY.... giving up everything else, literally and truly giving up everything to be His children... everything

and I thought I could only believe once I figured everything out.

People are taught this. So we think this way until God sets us free. We cannot figure out anything spiritual. It s a gift from God to everyone born again - spiritual enlightenment, Jesus becomes our Wisdom, Jesus becomes our experiential knowledge as we abide in Him, Jesus is our all in all.

“I believe; help my unbelief” (Mark 9:24).

Amen! Let all else be gone, just let us believe and live in Christ Jesus as written ! Abundant LIFE!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(note: isolated reading and reply, on just the two quote below, this morning)

No - all of these examples are flawed. Although we do eat fruit, it did not evolve to be eaten.

I read this and at first REJOICED ! Fruit is just as Yahuweh Created it to be , YES! HalleluYAH !
It was made/created to be eaten, exactly as written in His Word.....

Then my joy and heart dropped a bit, when I read the next sentence.... (which appears to be the scheme of men and not of God, a scheme taught to most people the last 50 years or so) ...

Most fruits evolved as a mechanism of reproduction, of holding and dispersing seeds.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Cogito ergo sum. Philosophy is where I got into trouble in the first place, haha. Any specific books or texts you would suggest?

... Being that you didn't have a response to my last post, I thought I'd ask you a question in return, if that's alright.

Where do you think the journey of Christian truth and faith 'should' begin? ​

 

[Elle12]

... Being that you didn't have a response to my last post, I thought I'd ask you a question in return, if that's alright.

Where do you think the journey of Christian truth and faith 'should' begin? ​

Apologies. Just feeling a touch apathetic, I suppose. I don't know what I'm looking for and I don't know how to find it. Truth seems to be too foolish of an answer, and I'm more and more certain it isn't something I can find. I don't feel particularly qualified to answer your question, but my answer would be within oneself.

Elle12, I just want to say that I have been exactly where you are now. I began searching over 10 years ago and went through intense periods of reading, praying, meeting with various pastors of various denominations, corresponding with PhDs in theology, etc.--and nothing. And I was so frustrated because some people get signs, right? Like Saul/Paul or Kirsten Powers. But I got nothing. And I still kept coming back and trying to figure it out (I'm a researcher by training, so I really thought if I tried hard enough I could, in fact, figure it out).
So, recently I began a conversation via email with a friend that has a PhD in Theology. I had so many questions and at one point he said to me: "... if you really didn't believe any of this at all, then you wouldn't be anxious. It seems to me someone would only be anxious because he either believed something to be true, or because he believed that it had a reasonable possibility of being true." I thought about this for a while but was still struggling. Things got worse when he (kindly!) wondered whether I was, in fact, resisting God because I did not want the consequences of belief. I spent the night sobbing on the floor-I felt like I was doing my "part" by reading, praying, etc.-what more could God ask of me?
Finally, one night I was replaying in my mind a conversation I had with my best friend (a lapsed Catholic) who had said he thought my "religious fixation" would resolve itself soon enough and-in my mind- I said to him "No, I know in my heart it's true!" And I realized I meant it. I was frantically seeking God, trying to find answers to all the unanswerable questions (why would God allow the Holocaust is a big one for me) and I thought I could only believe once I figured everything out. But I realized that is simply not true.
A couple of bible verses that helped me out: “Be still, and know that I am God” ( Psalm 46 :10). “I believe; help my unbelief” (Mark 9:24).
Try being still; sometimes feeling the need to be busy (reading, researching) is a fear-based distraction from what you'd be forced to acknowledge and feel if you slowed down--okay, I will admit that's a quote from a Facebook post, but I liked it.
And not everything is resolved for me. I thought that I'd believe and then, boom, everything would change. It hasn't worked like that for me (although I think it does for some people). I have a feeling it's going to be my path to struggle. And I don't understand why other people don't struggle quite so much.

Thank you.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Apologies. Just feeling a touch apathetic, I suppose. I don't know what I'm looking for and I don't know how to find it. Truth seems to be too foolish of an answer, and I'm more and more certain it isn't something I can find. I don't feel particularly qualified to answer your question, but my answer would be within oneself.

No problem. But what would you like for a Christian, like myself, to provide to you? I mean, let's face it in everyday, existential terms: we both are ordinary people sitting in ordinary chairs in ordinary settings in a scientifically ordinary world (despite Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and all of that). So, if we're going to handle, read, attempt to understand and apply the Bible in what seems to be an otherwise ordinary world, then what can any of us expect, really?

I'd love to be able to help so many fellow travelers who come to this website, but as far as I can tell, so many today are either engulfed in the pretensions of Direct Realism and Philosophical Materialism, or with the dilemmas of severely fractured social lives that I'm not sure what someone like me can do. What would you like for someone like me to do in this interpersonal instance? Test your ideas? Offer a helping hand? Be a friend? Pray? Discuss and help to solve problems in your personal life? What? (...and I'm not saying that I'm the one to actually try to answer the last four of these questions, but I'm kind of rhetorically throwing them out there to illustrate how this feels and looks from 'my side of things.' )

Peace

 

[Doubting Brutus]

Maybe I misunderstood your OP.

Do you want us to convince you of His existence?

If you want to believe in Jesus, you will have to entertain that He exists, even without immediate feedback.

In your private space, just say, "Jesus, I cannot see you or hear You, but if You are real, please make Yourself known to me." And mean it.

If He doesn't exist, you have lost nothing.
If He does, you have just given Him permission to break into your life, and He will. (That is what happened to me.)

Actually I did that. Twice. Both during particularly difficult times in my life. No one would know except me and no one except me would also know just how truly sincere I was in doing so. I was ready to do what ever was necessary to be reborn. On both occasions I encountered a wall of silence. It was crushing to be perfectly honest.