How do you resolve unbelief?

[Elle12]

It isn't a matter of if you are going to die, just when. There are no guarantees for the latter.

Surrendering to Jesus offers you two major benefits,

1. The invitation to be with Him when you do leave this planet, AND
2. The promise to help you in this life [see Romans 8:28].

How do I surrender to Jesus if I don't believe in his existence?

You're a rational and intelligent living being, why aren't you a plant? Their existence is far more simpler, and they don't have a need for the distinct and unique senses of the body to survive, such as the ability to see through the eyes, hearing through the ears, smelling through the nose, and tasting through the tongue- and add to that nerves to feel and touch things! They don't need to enjoy pleasure through these mediums at all. They don't need a brain, one that has a mind to reason and have rational thoughts, nor the need to verbally communicate and have discourse with another person. They find their sustenance in simple things. By using the energy of sunlight, plants can convert carbon dioxide and water into carbohydrates and oxygen (as if that isn't already intelligently designed). Why are we so complex? Why do we have all this extra baggage of "useless" things if plants can survive without them?

Don't you have consciousness? Where do you derive this self awareness?

You are also a moral being. Unlike the lower animals, you have a sense of justice and morality, of right from wrong and what is good from bad. We call it 'murder,' but the lower animals have no such classification. We call it "theft," but animals don't know it like that. If someone wrongs another, we believe something must be compensated. Why? We have marriage unions, the lower animals don't know that. We consider sexual pleasure something beyond reproduction, something special, the lower animals don't understand that. From where do you get the idea that something is right and something is wrong, unless you have a law within you that distinguishes the two in what we call the conscience? Why does the conscience strive against our desires? Why does the conscience deride our loose behavior and guide our moral judgment? What is the conscience? If there is a law of right from wrong, who is the Law-giver? If there is a standard of morality, who made it?

You alone are full of evidence, let alone the creation around you. We can go on about the human anatomy, how symmetrical it is in many ways and how perfect the organs are situated in the body, how each function with the help of another for a given purpose. We can talk about all the things that are unique about you because of how you were made.

You're asking questions that you think you already know the answers to - but most of them don't make sense, or don't have answers supported by evidence either way. I won't refute the existence of God, but nothing you have said supports it. Other animals, like dolphins or apes, have the same senses and apparent cultures that exhibit similar tendencies as our (constantly shifting) morals, and what you imply to be a universal set of laws and moral given by God is not at all the same between human cultures. Other species mate for life and have sex for pleasure. And every species evolves with "perfect" organs - they wouldn't live to reproduce if they didn't. None of this refutes God's existence, or his presence in creation, but none of it proves it or even provides evidence one way or the other.

 

[Sabertooth]

How do I surrender to Jesus if I don't believe in his existence?

Why are you at CF, if you haven't considered that possibility?

 

[Elle12]

Why are you at CF, if you haven't considered that possibility?

What do you mean? That was a legitimate question.

 

[Sabertooth]

What do you mean? That was a legitimate question.

Maybe I misunderstood your OP.

What is the path for those that do not believe, but want to? What is the response to those who have tried for years without success?

Do you want us to convince you of His existence?

If you want to believe in Jesus, you will have to entertain that He exists, even without immediate feedback.

In your private space, just say, "Jesus, I cannot see you or hear You, but if You are real, please make Yourself known to me." And mean it.

If He doesn't exist, you have lost nothing.
If He does, you have just given Him permission to break into your life, and He will. (That is what happened to me.)

 

[com7fy8]

Without the work of God, we could not believe in the gospel to be saved.

I trust this. And God is the One who knows what is really true or not.

What is the path for those that do not believe, but want to? What is the response to those who have tried for years without success?

God knows what is going on in each person. So, I would say you need to get to know someone, so you can know what to share with him or her.

So, why do certain people not get anywhere with Jesus?

A person possibly does not want to stop certain wrong things, but the person can be convinced that he or she wants to believe in Jesus.

Also, someone possibly does not trust that God our Heavenly Father is personal with us. So, the person can be trying to believe in one who is distant and just keeping a record on us, for judgment.

Also, someone may equate a certain religious group with God, and suppose believing really means joining and conforming to that group's ways.

 

[Elle12]

Maybe I misunderstood your OP.

Do you want us to convince you of His existence?

If you want to believe in Jesus, you will have to entertain that He exists, even without immediate feedback.

In your private space, just say, "Jesus, I cannot see you or hear You, but if You are real, please make Yourself known to me." And mean it.

If He doesn't exist, you have lost nothing.
If He does, you have just given Him permission to break into your life, and He will. (That is what happened to me.)

I have been seeking for five years. I posed the question as more hypothetical, because I wanted a wider array of opinions and input, but my motivation is selfish. I have been praying for four years for God to make Himself known to me, to open my mind and my eyes and my heart, and to help me see the truth and His will for me. In asking others what they think I should do, I have been told to pray, to read the Bible, to study it, to study myself, to pray and move as if I believed, to attend services three times a week, to meet regularly with a pastor/minister, to attend a different church, to pray differently, to take communion, to take classes, to fast (food, social media, silence), to serve, to tithe, to read books, to talk to Christians and ask for testimonies, and my personal favorite, to stop trying so hard. I have tried all of these things. I pray every day, four ways. I read scripture almost as often. I have chewed through book recommendations. I have prayed for God to turn my life on its end, if that is His will. Do what He will - and I understand the risk of that. If that isn't entertaining the existence of Jesus, I don't know is.

And still, nothing. When I ask people why they believe, I have heard their testimonies about knowing what God wants from them, or seeing God work in their lives, or just feeling that it is true or right. I know that no one can convince me of God's existence - I get that. They can't make me feel in my heart that God is there. Only God could do that. But he hasn't. So I keep asking. I keep seeking a relationship with this God that everyone says wants a relationship with me.

But to throw your heart into the abyss with the hope that maybe, this time, God will catch it, is exhausting. When you do everything that your advisors tell you to do, and they have no answers, what do you do? When you search your heart and your mind for what is separating you from God and you come up with nothing, what can you do? The answer, it seems, is "continue." But to continue to pour so much effort into something with nothing to show for it, to just keep doing what you're doing, and maybe one day it'll work - it's exhausting. I suppose there's too much on the line to give up completely, but it's draining. It feels like a toxic relationship that I'm pouring my heart into and receiving nothing from. It's simply exhausting.

I didn't start with that, because I'm hoping to hear something new. I'm not trying to shake anyone else's faith, I'm not trying to fight peoples' beliefs. I'm trying to find a reason for me to believe. I'm not hoping that someone will come along with the answers to my troubles - I'm just looking for something new to try. Something that isn't, "continue."

 

[xianghua]

Why do you choose to believe?

i for instance believe because we have evidence that god\designer exist. for instance we find complex structures like gears in nature (image below):

(image from This Insect Has The Only Mechanical Gears Ever Found in Nature | Science | Smithsonian)

since we know that gears are the product of design (and its irrelevant if they are able to reproduce or are made from organic components) we can know that nature was designed. think about that too: any living thing we know off is coming from other living thing. logically we need to conclude that the first living thing was designed and didnt evolved from non-living thing. we also have the chicken and egg problem.

 

[~Zao~]

What does "seeing spiritually" mean? Do you mean in study? What of the one who hears, but is not convinced?

Having heard, one believes ... they see literally what Christ has done. Having seen, they grow ... their morality expands in areas of their life ... to know spiritual is combined literal, moral, and intuitively balancing the material, physical shadow to the unseen of the substance having the path forged in their minds by familiarity with the proceeding methods is about the best way to explain in my limited vocabulary. But I wish you well on your journey.

How much is a lot?
Perhaps what I meant to ask is, what is the force that pushes you to 'believe' and abide when year after year you see no fruit? It's tempting to call the tree diseased and be done with it.

 

[com7fy8]

to pray and move as if I believed,

I personally do not recommend that we act as though something is true. God wants us to be real in what we do.

But I do remember how I was not sure about Jesus but I was satisfied He is the best. So, I decided to do what He says to do, just in case this would help. So . . . I needed to sell what I had and give to the poor, right? And do not let my left hand know what my right hand was doing, indeed.

But I decided I could just give my goods to poor people; so I brought my bike with two flat tires to a senior black couple in a housing area next to the hospital of the military station where I served in the Navy Hospital Corps; and I gave them five dollars to help pay for repairing the tires. They very quietly accepted my offering, and humbly said they could take care of fixing the tires. I noticed how they were quiet and humble with me. Possibly, they were Christians and they could tell I was having problems, and they would have prayed for me.

Then . . . how do I give money to the poor without them knowing - - and so I do not know how much I am giving each person . . . since my left hand should not know what my right hand is doing?

Have five and ten and twenty dollar bills and mix them up and put them inside pens so I do not know how much money is in each pen, wrapped around the refill. Then give out the pens and quickly withdraw from someone so he or she is less likely to see and remember who I am, then from a distance say, "There's a food coupon inside the pen, wrapped around the refill; make sure you get it out of the pen." And people would say, ok, thank you.

One woman said, "God bless you." And I felt blessed with love; so then I was considering she could be a real Christian and she had the power with God to get me straightened out; so I was a little bit encouraged by her. Then during daytime I found a black man who looked rather old, was stooped over, and had little lumps on his skin. I decided I should talk with him, not just give the pens and run. We talked a little, and I felt he might need more than just one pen. So, I gave him a few, hoping at least one would have a twenty in it. He said thank you, and told him to make sure he found the "coupons" inside the pens.

I got a little bit away from there and then an officer stopped me and said he had seen me give something to the man; what was it? Maybe I was dealing in drugs, I considered he might be thinking. Well, if I didn't tell him what I was doing, I might get busted on suspicion of drug dealing; but if I told him, people would know about my giving in secret and it wouldn't be a secret, any more.

But then I remembered how Jesus says He will confess those who confess Him before men; so I knew I had to tell the officer.

Then he demanded, why do you give to someone like that? And I figured he was a bigot; but I knew I had to stand up to him, and confess Jesus by saying how Jesus wants us to love any and all people. And I think I also said I was under military oath to uphold and defend the United States Constitution which guarantees equal treatment of everyone, and therefore I had to keep my word which I gave under that oath. And I knew he probably had also taken an oath like that, in order to become a police officer, and he would likely know that what I said meant he was breaking his oath by discriminating against that black man. "Well, I can't stop you," he then said, and let me go. I noted how he did not say I was right!

Then I was encouraged. Even though I still was not sure that I should believe in Jesus, it looked like God was dealing with me.

 

[Elle12]

i for instance believe because we have evidence that god\designer exist. for instance we find complex structures like gears in nature (image below):

(image from This Insect Has The Only Mechanical Gears Ever Found in Nature | Science | Smithsonian)

since we know that gears are the product of design (and its irrelevant if they are able to reproduce or are made from organic components) we can know that nature was designed. think about that too: any living thing we know off is coming from other living thing. logically we need to conclude that the first living thing was designed and didnt evolved from non-living thing. we also have the chicken and egg problem.

Thank you! The gears give me thought; but where my logic differs from yours is that gears are the product of design. Having studied evolution and natural selection, I wouldn't logically conclude that an organism is incapable of developing gears without being designed by a creator.

Likewise, while it's true that we only know of life begetting life, that doesn't support or explain the existence of God. While a creator would fill the gap of knowledge that we have, as to where life originated, there are other theories out there. None of them have much conclusive evidence. And then there is the typical logical response to that argument: If God created life, who created God? What logical explanation is there for something so complex as God that comes from nothing, and lives outside of time and space?

The chicken and the egg "problem" is something that is well-understood and explained by the concepts of natural selection. Indeed, even in living memory domestic chickens have been bred and artificially selected to produce livestock that genetically produce more eggs, or larger muscle mass, or physically mature faster (to reduce the amount of time between birth and slaughter).

None of these things disprove God, and I don't intend for them to shake your beliefs or anything of the sort; simply, some of what you and others find as inspiration to believe, I do not.

 

[xianghua]

--

 

[com7fy8]

I pray every day, four ways.

So, do you mean you use four different methods that people have told you?

 

[Elle12]

So, do you mean you use four different methods that people have told you?

Yes. I wouldn't think that God would care about the words or the method more than the intent, but I've nothing to lose. The only thing I've thought to do but haven't done is get baptized again - it feels disingenuous. But again, I suppose I have nothing to lose.

 

[xianghua]

Thank you! The gears give me thought; but where my logic differs from yours is that gears are the product of design. Having studied evolution and natural selection, I wouldn't logically conclude that an organism is incapable of developing gears without being designed by a creator.

ok, so lets go step by step. first lets deal with the design argument. so according to evolution gears arent necessarily the product of design since the notion that mutations+natural selection can give us complex structures that looks design, but without real design. so let me ask you this: what about something more complex than gears?. say a robot or a watch. do you think that a robot that is able to reproduce like a living thing isnt evidence for design since its also subjected to mutations and natural selection in that case?

The chicken and the egg "problem" is something that is well-understood and explained by the concepts of natural selection.

i refer to the concept of irreducible complexity. for instance: according to evolution many creatures evolved from different creatures by mutation and natural selection (for instance all mammals (including you) evolved from an ancient fish basically if we will go back in time). we can compare it with this analogy: say that we had a car that is able to reproduce and has DNA so it can add small changes over time like a living thing. do you think that such a car can evolve eventually into an airplane?

If God created life, who created God?

good question but lets check first the arguments above and we will continue from there.

 

[com7fy8]

I have prayed for God to turn my life on its end, if that is His will. Do what He will - and I understand the risk of that.

So, you can understand this sort of thing.

Possibly, what we are thinking is the prayer God is really hearing.

It seems to me, that you are letting too many people tell you what to do.

As far as people go, I would say find out who is mature and gentle and humble, and feed on the example of these people. And they will pray for you.

Talk about how they have learned how to love, in their marriages, how they have been getting our Father's personal correction. God is personal with each of us, His children. So, there is no one-size-fits-all method of getting somewhere with God. But God gets through to us.

So, this can be why so many things we humans do . . . all of us, not just you . . . many things don't work . . . because they don't work!!!!

But after God gets us His way, now is when He has things working His way.

But we can self-produce what we think is submitting to God, and trusting Him, and loving. Then we can say oh look at all we did. Do you think God is blind? I would say you don't. But He sees what we do, of course.

And what has helped me is >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

One day, while I was still struggling and frustrated and embarrassed, about how I yet again had lost my so-called "faith" > I read this verse in another Bible translation, and I thought about how I could do well to have a "meek and quiet spirit" . . . meaning that in me I would be meek and quiet, instead of frustrated and confused and disappointed. And it says God wants us to be meek and quiet; and I knew Jesus says He is "meek and lowly in heart" (Matthew 11:28-30). So, I figured meek and lowly is similar to being meek and quiet; and so possibly God even means He wants us to be like Jesus.

But I wasn't sure. So, I left it to God, I think I did.

And I think of this >

silence

There can be a major difference between being quiet and silent. God is never silent. But we can have all our noisy stuff going on inside of us, so we do not hear and do not experience God in His love . . . in His love's "gentle and quiet spirit".

We need how God changes us to be more and more gentle and quiet like Jesus.

I have been praying for four years for God to make Himself known to me, to open my mind and my eyes and my heart, and to help me see the truth and His will for me.

We in Jesus can be spending more than four years, going through His correction, growing more, being still in order for Him to rule us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is part of His basic will for all of us.

I now think of this > you say you pray to know God's will in your life. Part of God's basic will is you do not take things into your own hands. So, His will for you will not be some thing you can finally understand, and then do it by your own ability and effort. But our Heavenly Father does desire to personally share with each of us His children while we do what He has us doing in sharing with Him . . . no time out, please

And you are not on your own, in Jesus. We help each other, we pray for one another, we feed on each other's example. It is not copy-cat, but God is guiding us along with all He knows is going on with other people.

For maybe just one example >

I had a Bible group, yesterday evening, and I was getting things done late so I had little time to spend with my lady friend who goes to another church. It turned out that I got to her place, just in time to help take her friend's walker back to her friend's place. And she was a little late for her group. Then I sensed God wanted me to stay with her and spend time with her by going to her group, since I had been tied up with different things of my own church and I had not spent much time with her. So, I surprised her. It worked out to help her with the walker, and join her people. Then I spent a little time with her and rode my bike back to my place.

That could be a sample example of how God can work and time things according to what He knows. He knew she was a little late, but I got there right at that time to help her. Then He also had me loving, by staying with her to share with her group who knows me. So, God's personal guiding can be with very precise timing . . . not only for us and our own lives, but for loving as His family.

So, if we can't get our own selves straightened out, there is a reason why God wants us to do things as His family, no one being so greater than others or on one's own.

But I can do things independently. But I need to not get isolated.

And it can be good to know how to do nothing, in case I ever need to do this

 

[~Zao~]

It really is of little worth to the heavenly calling to think alone in terms of ’given up’ things. Things, to God, are that part of you that does not belong to Him.

His love as ‘better than’ shows in an intense desire, created by God, as well as the Supreme condition for knowing God.

Only the dross is lost in the exchange from earthly treasures (self and selfishness) for the heavenly ones, were thieves cannot steal and corruption cannot abide.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes. I wouldn't think that God would care about the words or the method more than the intent, but I've nothing to lose. The only thing I've thought to do but haven't done is get baptized again - it feels disingenuous. But again, I suppose I have nothing to lose.

Well, it is not a slot machine thing. And prayer includes thanking.

 

[drich0150]

Thank you. I suppose the analogy for my personal experience is not that a stranger says he will help me, but that people keep telling me that a stranger will help me. My struggle is not with whether or not to trust God, but waiting for Him to show up. Somehow, believing in God is more difficult than believing that He loves me.



Perhaps, but you wouldn't knock on a door to an empty house before you would knock on your neighbors. When you have asked for God's help to open your eyes and your heart and the answer is silence, it is not so easy to keep knocking at the door to a house that seems empty.

Well one IF you read the parable you would know this is a neighbor's house your knocking on.

2) have you Never been trick or treating? (outside your neighborhood?) Do you know the rules? If the porch light is on they expect to give out candy. Luke 11 tell us the light is on. So you have all you need to simply knock/ask. But you must do it on their terms. Some may say come around to the side door some may say knock don't use bell, other may say use bell don't knock. the point is you have to approach as indicated.

In luke 11 we are told to ask which is what you are doing when you ask you get directions. then to seek is to follow those directions. (Read the bible goto church ect) then the most important thing almost no one completely does is knock. Most people say they tried. You can't say your tried till your life is over. as knocking is a life long pursuit. even after you have been given an allotment of the holy Spirit the faithful seek more which means more knocking... so what is knocking? it is repeating asking and seeking.

 

[Elle12]

ok, so lets go step by step. first lets deal with the design argument. so according to evolution gears arent necessarily the product of design since the notion that mutations+natural selection can give us complex structures that looks design, but without real design. so let me ask you this: what about something more complex than gears?. say a robot or a watch. do you think that a robot that is able to reproduce like a living thing isnt evidence for design since its also subjected to mutations and natural selection in that case?

Are you referring to some organism that looks like a robot that we would create, or an actual robot that we did create? Assuming the former, I would imagine genetic selection would apply to it as well as anything else. The latter, as we don't have the ability to create life in that way, no.

i refer to the concept of irreducible complexity. for instance: according to evolution many creatures evolved from different creatures by mutation and natural selection (for instance all mammals (including you) evolved from an ancient fish basically if we will go back in time). we can compare it with this analogy: say that we had a car that is able to reproduce and has DNA so it can add small changes over time like a living thing. do you think that such a car can evolve eventually into an airplane?

Again, assuming that an "airplane" is a placeholder for a species and a "car" is a placeholder for one of its ancestors, sure.

Well, it is not a slot machine thing. And prayer includes thanking.

What do you mean by "slot machine"?

 

[Elle12]

Well one IF you read the parable you would know this is a neighbor's house your knocking on.

2) have you Never been trick or treating? (outside your neighborhood?) Do you know the rules? If the porch light is on they expect to give out candy. Luke 11 tell us the light is on. So you have all you need to simply knock/ask. But you must do it on their terms. Some may say come around to the side door some may say knock don't use bell, other may say use bell don't knock. the point is you have to approach as indicated.

In luke 11 we are told to ask which is what you are doing when you ask you get directions. then to seek is to follow those directions. (Read the bible goto church ect) then the most important thing almost no one completely does is knock. Most people say they tried. You can't say your tried till your life is over. as knocking is a life long pursuit. even after you have been given an allotment of the holy Spirit the faithful seek more which means more knocking... so what is knocking? it is repeating asking and seeking.

I think you've misunderstood my statement. When I said you wouldn't knock on a door to an empty house, what I mean is that I have been knocking for some time and the house is apparently empty. I've never seen someone go in or out of the house. I've never seen someone through the window. I've never met anyone who has said they live there. Some of my neighbors have told me they know the person who lives there, but I've been knocking for five years and no one has ever answered. Would you keep knocking, then? For how long?

I have studied the parable. It would certainly be different if I were hearing my neighbor telling me to go away, or if I could shadows under the door. Or even if I had ever met Him. But I haven't. I've never met anyone who has sought as I have with absolutely no answer.

Again, I will 'continue.' But I am constantly discouraged, and there seems to be nothing to encourage me.