How do you know when you have heard the Counselor?

[bbbbbbb]

Can you not see how hypocritical and illogical these accusations are?

Are you serious?
For nearly 2000 years, the church had crushed anyone who listened to the voice of God, many of them being burned at the stake. Yet without any prophetic voices, all on their own, theologians managed to split the church into thousands of denominations and sects.
With no help from the prophetic, each one of those divisions was created by expert theological argument.
ie. If even one of them was correct, there were thousands in error.

No my friend, you don't need prophetic voices to destroy the church, you've managed quite well without it so far.

To answer your question, yes.

 

[pescador]

If what "the counselor", a.k.a. The Holy Spirit, says is in agreement with the teachings of Scripture, then you have heard him. It's that easy.

 

[Francis Drake]

To answer your question, yes.

Yes, I presume, to how hypocritical and illogical your accusations are.

 

[Francis Drake]

If what "the counselor", a.k.a. The Holy Spirit, says is in agreement with the teachings of Scripture, then you have heard him. It's that easy.

If you think the Holy Spirit only speaks about scriptural teachings, then you are seriously limiting God.
The Lord is interested in all areas of our lives, and would speak in those areas if people would only listen, as they did in the past.

The great majority of things the Holy Spirit has spoken to me on, have had nothing to do with scripture or doctrine, nor did I need scripture to confirm them.

 

[pescador]

If you think the Holy Spirit only speaks about scriptural teachings, then you are seriously limiting God.
The Lord is interested in all areas of our lives, and would speak in those areas if people would only listen, as they did in the past.

The great majority of things the Holy Spirit has spoken to me on, have had nothing to do with scripture or doctrine, nor did I need scripture to confirm them.

What is it about "in agreement" that you don't understand?

It would be a good idea before replying to a post to actually read what it says. You're just jumping to an incorrect conclusion about what I said.

I repeat, "If what "the counselor", a.k.a. The Holy Spirit, says is in agreement with the teachings of Scripture, then you have heard him."

Do you really think that the Holy Spirit contradicts the Bible? If what you heard has nothing to do with scripture or Biblical doctrine then it's not from the Holy Spirit! God will not contradict Himself.

If you don't need Scripture to confirm them then you're probably not hearing anything that's in accordance with God's Word.

John 16:13 says, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, [as has already happened] he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

John 8:43-44 says, "Why don’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot accept my teaching. You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies."

Stop listening to anything not in accordance with God's word, otherwise you're listening to demons!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, I presume, to how hypocritical and illogical your accusations are.

Yes, I presume, to how hypocritical and illogical your accusations are.

You asked, "Are you serious?" I answered, "Yes." What you presume is entirely up to you.

 

[Francis Drake]

What is it about "in agreement" that you don't understand?

It would be a good idea before replying to a post to actually read what it says. You're just jumping to an incorrect conclusion about what I said.

I read and understood what you said the first time, and jumped to the correct conclusion, which you now demonstrate again.

I repeat, "If what "the counselor", a.k.a. The Holy Spirit, says is in agreement with the teachings of Scripture, then you have heard him."

Do you really think that the Holy Spirit contradicts the Bible? If what you heard has nothing to do with scripture or Biblical doctrine then it's not from the Holy Spirit! God will not contradict Himself.

Here's Samuel speaking to young Saul, -
"But as for your donkeys that were lost three days ago, do not be anxious about them, for they have been found. ……."
Where in scripture did Samuel go to check if this prophetic word was doctrinally correct before he gave it?

If you don't need Scripture to confirm them then you're probably not hearing anything that's in accordance with God's Word.

Samuel's donkey prophecy had no precedent in God's word either, for the simple reason it had nothing to do with doctrine.

The reality is that nowhere in scripture does it say everything must be confirmed by scripture. If you think it does, then show me the straight definitive scripture to prove it, and no more waffling around it.​

John 16:13 says, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, [as has already happened] he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

This is no help to you at all, but entirely proves my point for me, that the Spirit of Truth guides me into all truth, so if God warns me of a disaster, ie. a car crash, around the next corner, I trust and believe his voice and adjust my actions accordingly. I do not rush for my bible!

John 8:43-44 says, "Why don’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot accept my teaching. You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies"

Yet again quoting scripture that doesn't prove your case or disprove mine.

Stop listening to anything not in accordance with God's word, otherwise you're listening to demons!

Since Adam, God has constantly been speaking to his children. Some of which have reference back to scripture, and some of which have no direct connection to scripture.
Of course, no word from the Lord will contradict what he has already revealed. But you are going way beyond that principle in trying to gag God from speaking anything except words he has spoken previously.
In doing that, you have set yourself as judge over God! You are setting forth a doctrine of demons.

 

[pescador]

I read and understood what you said the first time, and jumped to the correct conclusion, which you now demonstrate again.
Here's Samuel speaking to young Saul, -
"But as for your donkeys that were lost three days ago, do not be anxious about them, for they have been found. ……."
Where in scripture did Samuel go to check if this prophetic word was doctrinally correct before he gave it?

Samuel's donkey prophecy had no precedent in God's word either, for the simple reason it had nothing to do with doctrine.

The reality is that nowhere in scripture does it say everything must be confirmed by scripture. If you think it does, then show me the straight definitive scripture to prove it, and no more waffling around it.​

This is no help to you at all, but entirely proves my point for me, that the Spirit of Truth guides me into all truth, so if God warns me of a disaster, ie. a car crash, around the next corner, I trust and believe his voice and adjust my actions accordingly. I do not rush for my bible!

Yet again quoting scripture that doesn't prove your case or disprove mine.

Since Adam, God has constantly been speaking to his children. Some of which have reference back to scripture, and some of which have no direct connection to scripture.
Of course, no word from the Lord will contradict what he has already revealed. But you are going way beyond that principle in trying to gag God from speaking anything except words he has spoken previously.
In doing that, you have set yourself as judge over God! You are setting forth a doctrine of demons.

No, I am not "setting forth a doctrine of demons." I am also not setting myself as judge over God. That is your entirely erroneous conclusion.

When you say, "But you are going way beyond that principle in trying to gag God from speaking anything except words he has spoken previously" it is obvious that you don't understand the Holy Spirit. John says in his gospel, quoting Jesus, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you."

If the voices that you hear don't meet this criterion they are not from the Holy Spirit.

If you don't understand this basic Bible truth, you should try to listen to Him (The Holy Spirit), not whatever voice comes into your head.

 

[JAL]

I read and understood what you said the first time, and jumped to the correct conclusion, which you now demonstrate again.
Here's Samuel speaking to young Saul, -
"But as for your donkeys that were lost three days ago, do not be anxious about them, for they have been found. ……."
Where in scripture did Samuel go to check if this prophetic word was doctrinally correct before he gave it?

Samuel's donkey prophecy had no precedent in God's word either, for the simple reason it had nothing to do with doctrine.

The reality is that nowhere in scripture does it say everything must be confirmed by scripture. If you think it does, then show me the straight definitive scripture to prove it, and no more waffling around it.​

This is no help to you at all, but entirely proves my point for me, that the Spirit of Truth guides me into all truth, so if God warns me of a disaster, ie. a car crash, around the next corner, I trust and believe his voice and adjust my actions accordingly. I do not rush for my bible!

Yet again quoting scripture that doesn't prove your case or disprove mine.

Since Adam, God has constantly been speaking to his children. Some of which have reference back to scripture, and some of which have no direct connection to scripture.
Of course, no word from the Lord will contradict what he has already revealed. But you are going way beyond that principle in trying to gag God from speaking anything except words he has spoken previously.
In doing that, you have set yourself as judge over God! You are setting forth a doctrine of demons.

Wow! Excellent post! Rare that I find someone who shares some of my perspective. I have a ten-point rebuttal of Sola Scriptura (it's a defense of Direct Revelation) on this post, and a slightly larger 16-point rebuttal on this post. If you and I share any other points in common, that's great, if not, that's fine too. Either way, thanks for your post!

 

[bbbbbbb]

I once met a completely sincere fellow who was really kind and nice. Sadly, he suffered from schizophrenia and had been raised in a conservative Quaker (Society of Friends) environment where the emphasis is finding your "inner light" and following it. This guy refused to take his meds for his schizophrenia because of the rather severe side effects, not to mention that the meds stopped the voices in his head. He sincerely that the voices he was here was, indeed, the Holy Spirit. Sadly, the voices were telling him to commit suicide.

 

[JAL]

I once met a completely sincere fellow who was really kind and nice. Sadly, he suffered from schizophrenia and had been raised in a conservative Quaker (Society of Friends) environment where the emphasis is finding your "inner light" and following it. This guy refused to take his meds for his schizophrenia because of the rather severe side effects, not to mention that the meds stopped the voices in his head. He sincerely that the voices he was here was, indeed, the Holy Spirit. Sadly, the voices were telling him to commit suicide.

Regardless, there are no conceivable exceptions to the following maxim. (I prefer to call it the rule of conscience, but the exact naming of it isn’t a vital issue).

“If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and B is good, I should opt for B”

You may not like the implications, you can complain that it could lead to suicide, genocide, or what have you - but it's an inescapable maxim. Ideally it pertains to when the degree of felt certainty is 100%, but otherwise it means to go with the option that you feel MOST certain about.

Does this mean I could kill someone on less than 100% certainty? Generally no - your conscience would typically tell you that, say 98% certainty is not enough to kill someone and, therefore, what is MOST certain (at least 99%) is the need to wait for 100% certainty.

Abraham tried to kill his son because the Voice left him feeling 100% certain it was the right thing to do. Moses and Joshua tried to slaughter 7 nations to lay hold of Canaan, because the Voice left them feeling 100% certain.

That's how Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Regardless, there are no conceivable exceptions to the following maxim. (I prefer to call it the rule of conscience, but the exact naming of it isn’t a vital issue).

“If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and B is good, I should opt for B”

You may not like the implications, you can complain that it could lead to suicide, genocide, or what have you - but it's an inescapable maxim. Ideally it pertains to when the degree of felt certainty is 100%, but otherwise it means to go with the option that you feel MOST certain about.

Does this mean I could kill someone on less than 100% certainty? Generally no - your conscience would typically tell you that, say 98% certainty is not enough to kill someone and, therefore, what is MOST certain (at least 99%) is the need to wait for 100% certainty.

Abraham tried to kill his son because the Voice left him feeling 100% certain it was the right thing to do. Moses and Joshua tried to slaughter 7 nations to lay hold of Canaan, because the Voice left them feeling 100% certain.

That's how Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

That is precisely how your version of Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

 

[JAL]

That is precisely how your version of Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

I notice you, like everyone else in my history, was unable to postulate a single scenario that clearly calls for deliberate departure from the maxim. Funny thing about tautologies, huh?

 

[JAL]

That is precisely how your version of Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

And how does your version work? Are you saying it's possible Abraham had less than 100% certainty about killing his son?
And the same of Moses and Joshua?

(You might want to think carefully before answering).

 

[JAL]

That is precisely how your version of Direct Revelation works, like it or not.

Prior to conversion, Paul was convinced, based on exegesis, that the Messiah would liberate captive Israel. As a result, he concluded - on an exegetical basis - that Jesus could not possibly be the Messiah. Then he saw a Light and heard a Voice on the road to Damascus. The vision caused him to feel certain that Jesus is the Christ. And thus, in a single flash of light, he threw 20 years of biblical exegesis out the window.

Do you agree with Paul's decision, or not? And why or why not?

One more example. Based on exegesis, Peter had a lifelong habit of shunning the Gentiles. Then he saw a vision directing him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10). The vision caused him to feel certain it was the right thing to do. Suddenly he threw 20 years of Bible-based conviction out the window.

Do you agree with Peter's decision, or not? And why or why not?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Prior to conversion, Paul was convinced, based on exegesis, that the Messiah would liberate captive Israel. As a result, he concluded - on an exegetical basis - that Jesus could not possibly be the Messiah. Then he saw a Light and heard a Voice on the road to Damascus. The vision caused him to feel certain that Jesus is the Christ. And thus, in a single flash of light, he threw 20 years of biblical exegesis out the window.

Do you agree with Paul's decision, or not? And why or why not?

One more example. Based on exegesis, Peter had a lifelong habit of shunning the Gentiles. Then he saw a vision directing him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10). The vision caused him to feel certain it was the right thing to do. Suddenly he threw 20 years of Bible-based conviction out the window.

Do you agree with Peter's decision, or not? And why or why not?

We have no idea what Paul's theology was pre-conversion. You might surmise his theology based on what little we know concerning Pharisaic Judaism and the teachings of Rebbe Gamaliel. All we actually know is that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee of Pharisees, ardent for the Law, and thus highly anti-Christian.

 

[JAL]

We have no idea what Paul's theology was pre-conversion. You might surmise his theology based on what little we know concerning Pharisaic Judaism and the teachings of Rebbe Gamaliel. All we actually know is that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee of Pharisees, ardent for the Law, and thus highly anti-Christian.

The words in bold constitute the main point. He wasn't a big fan of the Jesus-is-Messiah concept. The questions posed to you are quite relevant, therefore.

 

[Francis Drake]

No, I am not "setting forth a doctrine of demons." I am also not setting myself as judge over God. That is your entirely erroneous conclusion.

The whole of your argument blocks God speaking as he freely would, and that makes it a doctrine of demons.

When you say, "But you are going way beyond that principle in trying to gag God from speaking anything except words he has spoken previously" it is obvious that you don't understand the Holy Spirit.

My introduction to the Lord started back in the early 1960s when the Holy Spirit began giving me direct revelation and I heard his voice!
This was a good 10 years before I ever read a bible or heard the gospel message, and that communion has continued to grow for approaching 60 years now.
So before you cast more foolish aspersions against my relationship with the Lord, I suggest you consult him first.

John says in his gospel, quoting Jesus, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you."

You are obviously so used to endlessly repeating this scripture that you've forgotten to read what it says.
FYI, it entirely proves my point whilst saying nothing whatsoever to back your claim!

If the voices that you hear don't meet this criterion they are not from the Holy Spirit.

What criterion? That scripture confirms what I have repeatedly said.

If you don't understand this basic Bible truth, you should try to listen to Him (The Holy Spirit), not whatever voice comes into your head.

Perhaps you should quieten down and listen, maybe you'll learn something.

Over the many decades the Holy Spirit has been involved with all areas of my life.

It was an open Holy Spirit vision as I walked across my factory floor that revealed how to fix a constantly malfunctioning production machine. I literally saw a picture of a lump of shaped metal floating in front of my eyes as I walked, and instantly understood it related to a particular machine.
It was amazing because this machine had given us trouble for years and a replacement was outside of our financial ability. What's more, we had two of these machines, both with the same design fault.
The idea that we must check all direct revelations against the bible is so obviously foolish, I didn't waste any time on it. So, knowing this was directly from the Lord himself, I spent the next couple of hours manufacturing a piece of metal to the Lord's design and then fitting it to the machine.
It worked like a dream, and we quickly repeated it on the second machine, and they never broke down again.

My production engineer is the Lord of Glory himself!


My navigator is the Holy Spirit.-
I had been driving along at 60mph at night and in the rain, when the Holy Spirit suddenly warned me of an impending car crash around the next bend, I instantly took my foot off the throttle and covered the brake in readiness. Suddenly, a huge black shape leapt out of the hedge right in front of me. Being warned, my speed had dropped right down to maybe 30mph, nevertheless, it landed on the front of the car and was swept up and over the roof and deposited behind me.

Apart from a the mirror which whipped around and smashed the little side window, plus loads of mud and scratches all over the front and roof, the damage was negligible. the beast was a black cow that had leapt over the hedge, and had I been travelling at my original 60mph, it would most likely have come through the screen and killed or badly injured my wife and I.

The Lord told us to leave our previous place and travel to the other end of England. He then led us by dreams, visions and direct words to the house we now live in. When it turned out that we had insufficient money for the purchase, He then showed us how to conduct the negotiations.
When it was all over, the agent said he had never seen anything like it.

This is my latest house purchase, but the Lord has given us a "word of knowledge" on each of the last 8 house moves. And never once did we check the bible for confirmation.

My last car had to be scrapped when the timing belt snapped. We were very short of cash so asked the Lord for direction. We live in a remote village so had no means of travelling around used car sales places.
As we looked at car types on the internet, we told the Lord what we would like to have, including the model number and year because later models were an inferior design for our usage.
As we prayed, the Lord started to direct our path, telling us not to look at the car dealers, which being without transport was a relief.
Then the Lord said quite clearly, "its within shouting distance", which could only mean our small village.

The next day, as we passed the local mechanic's, I asked if any of the cars outside were for sale. He replied that they were all customer's cars waiting for servicing or repair.
Then he pointed to one at the far end, "That one belongs to my mechanic, he's just fixing it to sell."
You guessed, it was the make, year, and model we had asked the Lord for, and just as he said, within shouting distance of home.

I have experienced thousands of such interactions with hearing the Lord's direct revelation or voice.
Virtually none have any connection with doctrinal issues, and the idea of checking for scriptural confirmation merely proves ignorance of the ways of the Lord.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In order to obtain fruitful discussion for Christians:

How have you known when God has communicated something to you, when you have heard the Counselor?

Not so much looking for rules, but looking for experienced examples of the convincing indicators you have experienced.

Scripture.... literally.

When the Holy Spirit speaks to me He does so with Words from Scripture. He's never used Words outside of Scripture, but He brings meaning to it. I'll be listening to a Pastor speak and the Holy Spirit will add to the sermon using Scripture and brings either correction to or deeper meaning to the Sermon.

It's a rare Pastor the Holy Spirit is simply silent, but those Pastors are always the most Spirit-Filled, and I always sit in silence riveted to their message....

I know it's the Holy Spirit because this has gone on since the day I was saved, before I had a Bible to read and before I knew any Scripture. I used to Google what I heard and always found it was verses from the Word of God.

I actually worried He would stop talking to me after I got a Bible so I kind of put off buying one for a while, because I didn't want to lose that relationship, although it was a fear I didn't need to fear, I have come to find.

But this is how I've come to understand the Scriptures, I had a basic systematic theology mapped out before I was saved a year via this understanding from the Holy Spirit.

I actually "hear", kind of like hearing your own thoughts, but they aren't from me or my own mind, they are always just Scripture.

 

[Francis Drake]

I once met a completely sincere fellow who was really kind and nice. Sadly, he suffered from schizophrenia and had been raised in a conservative Quaker (Society of Friends) environment where the emphasis is finding your "inner light" and following it. This guy refused to take his meds for his schizophrenia because of the rather severe side effects, not to mention that the meds stopped the voices in his head. He sincerely that the voices he was here was, indeed, the Holy Spirit. Sadly, the voices were telling him to commit suicide.

Straw man argument, nothing to do with what we are talking about.
That's as stupid as saying there were false teachers in Israel at the time Jesus was teaching, therefore Jesus was a false teacher.