How do you know when you have heard the Counselor?

Francis Drake

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That is precisely how your version of Direct Revelation works, like it or not.
Not true, the witness of your Spirit is how all direct revelation should work for all.

Remember the grieving disciples on the road to Emmaus after the death of Jesus, then suddenly, Jesus himself appears and joins them, but they are so wrapped up in grief they don't recognise him. They bemoan their disappointment at what had happened...…………..-

Lk24v25And He said to them, “O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken.
In accusing them of unbelief this indicates they already knew these scriptures but rejected them.
26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27And having begun from Moses and from all the Prophets, He interpreted to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

After Jesus had unwrapped the prophetic scriptures, he suddenly departs from these two disciples. The key question is what these disciples said next?

Luke24v32And they said to one another, “Was not our heart burning within us as He was speaking with us on the road, as He was opening the Scriptures to us?”

Take note that this has nothing to do with the intellect! Their hearts burned within them, which simply means the Holy Spirit was witnessing direct to their human spirit.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Not true, the witness of your Spirit is how all direct revelation should work for all.

Remember the grieving disciples on the road to Emmaus after the death of Jesus, then suddenly, Jesus himself appears and joins them, but they are so wrapped up in grief they don't recognise him. They bemoan their disappointment at what had happened...…………..-

Lk24v25And He said to them, “O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken.
In accusing them of unbelief this indicates they already knew these scriptures but rejected them.
26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27And having begun from Moses and from all the Prophets, He interpreted to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

After Jesus had unwrapped the prophetic scriptures, he suddenly departs from these two disciples. The key question is what these disciples said next?

Luke24v32And they said to one another, “Was not our heart burning within us as He was speaking with us on the road, as He was opening the Scriptures to us?”

Take note that this has nothing to do with the intellect! Their hearts burned within them, which simply means the Holy Spirit was witnessing direct to their human spirit.

Yes, but not one word Jesus spoke was from outside of Scripture. Everything concerning Jesus life, death, and ressurection was foretold, but that wasn't how those prophecies were interpreted by any in Jewish scholarship.

Jesus didn't come with a new message, He came with a new understanding of Scripture. God's Word is scripture, all inspired by God. Jesus never spoke outside of what was already written. Just a new way to understand it.... (All scripture testifies of Him)

While some things in the old testament were once outside of Scripture, they had to be tested to see if they passed the test of the prophet... what does the Bible say? No prophecy came about by a prophets own interpretation of things, but by inspiration of God, but there are false prophets as well we are to look out for. *2 Peter 1:20 - 2 Peter 2:1-2 (or through 3 or so)

Even Jesus had to prove Himself to be sent from God...
 
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JAL

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Yes, but not one word Jesus spoke was from outside of Scripture. Everything concerning Jesus life, death, and ressurection was foretold, but that wasn't how those prophecies were interpreted by any in Jewish scholarship.

Jesus didn't come with a new message, He came with a new understanding of Scripture. God's Word is scripture, all inspired by God. Jesus never spoke outside of what was already written. Just a new way to understand it.... (All scripture testifies of Him)

While some things in the old testament were once outside of Scripture, they had to be tested to see if they passed the test of the prophet... what does the Bible say? No prophecy came about by a prophets own interpretation of things, but by inspiration of God, but there are false prophets as well we are to look out for. *2 Peter 1:20 - 2 Peter 2:1-2 (or through 3 or so)

Even Jesus had to prove Himself to be sent from God...
Your type of thinking limits what God can say. Remember how the Voice told Abraham to leave His homeland? Suppose a voice says to you, "Pack up your belongings and move to Africa to preach the gospel."

Or even something as simple as, "Quit your job and take hold of the other job-offer recently proposed to you."

How are you going to exegetically test such words? There could be any number of things that God might want to say to us, that cannot be exegetically proven or disproven. See my comments at post 31 for God's intended technique of recognizing His voice.
 
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JAL

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@Hazelelponi,

I'm no prophet as yet. Generally speaking I don't get any clear Direct Revelation, certainly nothing in the way of 100% certainty. So yes, I fall back on exegesis as a crutch - my conscience often tells me to do so - to the extent that it seems to help me test a message. But exegesis is fallible, and lends precious little help in many scenarios. I cannot continue living my life supposing that reliance on exegesis is how God originally designed for His people to live.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Your type of thinking limits what God can say. Remember how the Voice told Abraham to leave His homeland? Suppose a voice says to you, "Pack up your belongs and move to Africa to preach the gospel."

Or even something as simple as, "Quit your job and take hold of the other job-offer recently proposed to you."

How are you going to exegetically test such words? There could be any number of things that God might want to say to us, that cannot be exegetically proven or disproven. See my comments at post 31 for God's intended technique of recognizing His voice.

Let's say we are going to exegetically test a call for you to be a Missionary.

First, we would examine Scripture, asking the question: "are people called by God to become missionaries or is this something the Bible calls wrong?"

So after exegetical examination we see yes, God does give people specific callings...

Then, we may want a confirmation of this calling. So you go to your church elders and tell them you feel called to Missionary work in Africa...

In Presbyterian churches there is a basic process they put potential candidates through examining a person in relation to this calling and confirming it, or deciding it's not from God at all (perhaps mental illness talking or a role that doesn't fit the person, for instance.)

If a calling is confirmed through the process, they help you get into seminary and do the various things you need to prepare. (Normally a 3 year process or more total).

Certainly, that's one denomination but all have some kind of process I think, I find it doubtful they take just anyone off the street and run them through seminary and throw them to the wolves...

There should be Biblical support, and outside confirmation, then depending on what it is, some kind of process of preparation unless it's yes, you should make a large meal tonight in preparation for unexpected company.

We all rely on the Bible though, we know Scripture well enough to know the kind of God we serve, and the kinds of things He may ask us to do.

I have felt overwhelming need to pray for people I don't know before etc. I don't need confirmation, because I know God well enough, and know Scripture well enough to know this isn't an unscriptural thing.

But when God speaks to me He really does use Scripture to do so nearly regardless of circumstance. All answers to any questions I have, even personal, or anything God feels like relaying nearly always comes in the form of Scripture. He's never been divorced from it for me.
 
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Francis Drake

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Yes, but not one word Jesus spoke was from outside of Scripture. Everything concerning Jesus life, death, and ressurection was foretold, but that wasn't how those prophecies were interpreted by any in Jewish scholarship.
If you think that, then you are deluded.
Do you seriously imagine that everything Jesus did is contained in the Law and the prophets?
But don't listen to me, lets look at what John said about that daft idea.
John21v25Now there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if every one should be written, I suppose not even the world itself to have space for the books to be written.

So, as you see, neither the OT, nor all the books in the world could contain what he did or said.
 
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Hazelelponi

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@Hazelelponi,

I'm no prophet as yet. Generally speaking I don't get any clear Direct Revelation, certainly nothing in the way of 100% certainty. So yes, I fall back on exegesis as a crutch - my conscience often tells me to do so - to the extent that it seems to help me test a message. But exegesis is fallible, and lends precious little help in many scenarios. I cannot continue living my life supposing that reliance on exegesis is how God originally designed for His people to live.

For me it's always a combination of the Holy Spirit and Scripture. Never just one since I've been saved.

Not everyone seems to hear the Holy Spirit like I do, although I can't say for certain that everyone should. I think God treats us all as individuals, and works with each of us the way that works best for us as individuals. I don't believe salvation is one size fits all.

I had a most difficult time at first with the Holy Spirit, not sure I had just lost my mind... lol. I REALLY had to test that, decide for myself my own santity. Even went and sat with a psychiatrist once.. was deemed sane..lol. (scary huh? Haha)

Not everyone could handle that the same, and God knows who each of us are, and what we are capable of. So I do see God's work in us and how he works in us to be very individual... not everyone is going to be wanting to find themselves in front of a shrink because they now doubt their sanity, for instance.

For whatever reason, this is how God is working in you for now. There are some aspects of wrong exegesis that could take you away from faith, but truly not that many.

For you, prayer is probably your best answer. Just ask God for ever greater discernment when reading scripture, that's all you need, it's all any of us need... God can give you that np. And that may lead to ever greater things.
 
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Hazelelponi

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If you think that, then you are deluded.

I'm deluded? Lol..

I was referencing your post concerning the disciples who were grieving Jesus's death, first of all.. because they didn't understand Jesus's death and the ressurection yet.

If you see, I said immediately after your snip of a quote:

Everything concerning Jesus life, death, and ressurection was foretold, but that wasn't how those prophecies were interpreted by any in Jewish scholarship.

I never said every single word Jesus ever uttered was recorded in the Old Testament by the prophets prior to his life, death, and ressurection. Simply that the events that took place, concerning the Messiah's life, death, and resurrection, was foretold. (You know, the main of the message...)

So it's not a delusion I'm under. I'm sure Jesus passed gas too, but it's not necessary to the message of salvation to record it.

What the scriptures do, is give you enough to come to the truth.

This is not proof of extra Biblical teaching however. Anything you do and teach must align with the whole of Scripture or it must be disregarded as being something not from God.

Mohammed, was deluded. We know this, because his message doesn't align with Scripture - but I don't doubt he encountered demons, one bit, he got Islam from that.

Hearing voices or having supernatural experiences doesn't guarantee it's coming from God... there are false prophets too. If it doesn't align with Scripture, it's a falsehood.
 
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JAL

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Let's say we are going to exegetically test a call for you to be a Missionary.

First, we would examine Scripture, asking the question: "are people called by God to become missionaries or is this something the Bible calls wrong?"

So after exegetical examination we see yes, God does give people specific callings...

Then, we may want a confirmation of this calling. So you go to your church elders and tell them you feel called to Missionary work in Africa...

In Presbyterian churches there is a basic process they put potential candidates through examining a person in relation to this calling and confirming it, or deciding it's not from God at all (perhaps mental illness talking or a role that doesn't fit the person, for instance.)

If a calling is confirmed through the process, they help you get into seminary and do the various things you need to prepare. (Normally a 3 year process or more total).

Certainly, that's one denomination but all have some kind of process I think, I find it doubtful they take just anyone off the street and run them through seminary and throw them to the wolves...

There should be Biblical support, and outside confirmation, then depending on what it is, some kind of process of preparation unless it's yes, you should make a large meal tonight in preparation for unexpected company.

We all rely on the Bible though, we know Scripture well enough to know the kind of God we serve, and the kinds of things He may ask us to do.

I have felt overwhelming need to pray for people I don't know before etc. I don't need confirmation, because I know God well enough, and know Scripture well enough to know this isn't an unscriptural thing.

But when God speaks to me He really does use Scripture to do so nearly regardless of circumstance. All answers to any questions I have, even personal, or anything God feels like relaying nearly always comes in the form of Scripture. He's never been divorced from it for me.

(1) You've proposed a fallible process. This is unsatisfactory with 100 billion souls at stake. So the question is, when God is determined to produce an infallible revelation - for example the revelations authorial of Scripture - how does He convey it? 100% certainty is the most plausible answer. Because: He cannot fault you for heeding 100% certainty. He CAN fault you for acting on less, it's called presumption.
(2) Your approach still limits what God can say. It doesn't allow Him to say, "Pack up your bags IMMEDIATELY" because you've contrived a lengthy process of verifying His voice. This means He cannot even run a church service. He can't even have someone suddenly stand up and declare a word of prophecy/encouragement impromptu.

(3) Witnessing is defined in impromptu terms. "At that time it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of my Father speaking through you."
 
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JAL

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At post 49 I also could have added:
(4) All proposed processes of verification are designed, ultimately, to raise your level of certainty to a satisfactory level. If the Inward Witness supernaturally raises it to a satisfactory level as part of the process of Direct Revelation, it has thereby obviated all other proposed verification-techniques.
 
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Francis Drake

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Let's say we are going to exegetically test a call for you to be a Missionary.

First, we would examine Scripture, asking the question: "are people called by God to become missionaries or is this something the Bible calls wrong?"

So after exegetical examination we see yes, God does give people specific callings...

Then, we may want a confirmation of this calling. So you go to your church elders and tell them you feel called to Missionary work in Africa...

In Presbyterian churches there is a basic process they put potential candidates through examining a person in relation to this calling and confirming it, or deciding it's not from God at all (perhaps mental illness talking or a role that doesn't fit the person, for instance.)

There are many many missionaries who would completely disagree with you. In fact, if it was up to the church, many of the most famous missionaries would never have gone out.
I am talking about Gladys Aylward, Jackie Pullinger and all the others who were called by God, but rejected by the church.
If a calling is confirmed through the process, they help you get into seminary and do the various things you need to prepare. (Normally a 3 year process or more total).
Good job the disciples never heard this nonsense, otherwise the gospel would never have got started.
Certainly, that's one denomination but all have some kind of process I think, I find it doubtful they take just anyone off the street and run them through seminary and throw them to the wolves...
"I think", that's the operative word isn't it.
Your problem is that you have replaced the Holy Spirit with human intellect, the Tree of Life with the tree of Knowledge, which of course just brings death.
There should be Biblical support, and outside confirmation, then depending on what it is, some kind of process of preparation unless it's yes, you should make a large meal tonight in preparation for unexpected company.
Again, just more fleshly intervention usurping what should be a work of the Holy Spirit.
We all rely on the Bible though, we know Scripture well enough to know the kind of God we serve, and the kinds of things He may ask us to do.

I have felt overwhelming need to pray for people I don't know before etc. I don't need confirmation, because I know God well enough, and know Scripture well enough to know this isn't an unscriptural thing.

But when God speaks to me He really does use Scripture to do so nearly regardless of circumstance. All answers to any questions I have, even personal, or anything God feels like relaying nearly always comes in the form of Scripture. He's never been divorced from it for me.
Sadly, instead of growing in the area of hearing God, you are trying to put your own straight jacket on everyone else. In reality, there are many other ways of hearing God than your own narrow experience.

In my case, the Lord uses scripture only on rare occasions, as the circumstances often have nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine.
As I said previously, his words of knowledge, prophetic words, and visions, encompass everything around my life, whether by business or home life.

I have had thousands of words from the Lord regarding business direction, finances, buying and selling things.

On one occasion, I was standing in a factory looking at a piece of complex machinery over 70ft long. It was an investment bigger than anything I'd done before and I knew next to nothing about the process involved because we had always sub contracted the work out.

As I stood there, I felt a breath down the back of my collar, and heard the whisper of the Holy Spirit, "You are standing in the way of my business again!"

I nearly leapt out of my skin, then immediately turned to the man selling it, "Yes, I'll take it," and wrote the cheque out there and then.

The words God spoke were based on the fact that my business was dedicated to the Lord, and he obviously took it seriously!

My hearing God is about a personal relationship between me and the Lord, and the bible wouldn't be of much use in such events.
 
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Hazelelponi

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(1) You've proposed a fallible process. This is unsatisfactory with 100 billion souls at stake. So the question is, when God is determined to produce an infallible revelation - for example the revelations authorial of Scripture - how does He convey it? 100% certainty is the most plausible answer. Because: He cannot fault you for heeding 100% certainty. He CAN fault you for acting on less, it's called presumption.
(2) Your approach still limits what God can say. It doesn't allow Him to say, "Pack up your bags IMMEDIATELY" because you've contrived a lengthy process of verifying His voice. This means He cannot even run a church service. He can't even have someone suddenly stand up and declare a word of prophecy/encouragement impromptu.

(3) Witnessing is defined in impromptu terms. "At that time it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of my Father speaking through you."

First, church services are orderly. They aren't "impromptu". Why would anyone stand up shouting in the middle of a sermon? That's rude. God manages far better than that.

As far as limiting God, I don't think I am.

I do think God speaks to us, but pick up your bags and leave now would likely be given the time to consider everything necessary leading up to that. Noah was given time to build a boat. Pharoah was warned in advance of coming famine.

There are few instances in scripture where a message is given and someone needs to act right then and there due to emergent situations.

Even in Ezekiel God gave him a vision which he shared with the people, and when the people didn't take it to heart God then told Ezekiel to pack his bags and gave a description of how to do it and when etc.

God doesn't really seem big on people jumping up screaming the church is on fire in the middle of a sermon.

He's more laid back really. Certainly, if someone's name is Ezekiel or Elijah or or or, we can pretty much say at one point they will clearly know when it's God talking verse Satan, but it's still going to be things that are within scriptural context...

Paul (I think it was) was warned of arrest, Jesus knew of impending arrest. Neither did anything different however, than what they were called to do. But heads up, good to know.

The only real instance of a prophecy that would carry with it little warning was relating to the siege of Jerusalem.. but then, they were still given time to prepare for the potential. Heads up. Good to know. Will have to flee someday.. no coats. Plenty of advance warning though to get used to the idea, then your just waiting on the when.
 
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Hazelelponi

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"I think", that's the operative word isn't it.
Your problem is that you have replaced the Holy Spirit

No, I have not. I don't know the inner workings of every denomination, so I have to say "I think" due to the fact there are some off the chain ones about.

I'm not the mouth piece of God, and I don't speak in His Name. I speak in my own, with my own understanding thus far in my walk with Christ.

I do believe anyone declaring themselves to be the mouthpiece of God and declaring every word from their mouth to be God's Holy Word better have an awful lot to back such a claim up with though.... because that's daring indeed.
 
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Good job the disciples never heard this nonsense, otherwise the gospel would never have got started.

What on earth do you think 3-1/2 years of discipling Christ then waiting on the indwelling Holy Spirit before going out to spread the gospel was, exactly?
 
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I am talking about Gladys Aylward, Jackie Pullinger and all the others who were called by God, but rejected by the church.

I've never heard of them, but then, I've never actively sought out heretical teachings to learn from, which is usually what is rejected by most churches. (Often for good cause)
 
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Sadly, instead of growing in the area of hearing God, you are trying to put your own straight jacket on everyone else. I

No.. I'm really not. Just relaying what I believe God does with His people, based on my own interactions as well as scripture.

I do think we need to be most discerning as Christians with such an impressive number of heretical teachings about... for the good of the church.
 
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JAL

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What on earth do you think 3-1/2 years of discipling Christ then waiting on the indwelling Holy Spirit before going out to spread the gospel was, exactly?
You mean 3.5 years sitting at the feet of Christ, listening to the Voice, instead of running all over the world like the typical missionary - half-baked, half-cocked, and loose-triggered? That's what you're asking about? I call it "Absolute Dependency on Direct Revelation". I'll give you an important example in a moment (although I really have no time for this thread with my busy week starting).
 
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You mean 3.5 years sitting at the feet of Christ, listening to the Voice, instead of running all over the world like the typical missionary - half-baked, half-cocked, and loose-triggered? That's what you're asking about? I call it "Absolute Dependency on Direct Revelation". I'll give you an important example in a moment (although I really have no time for this thread with my busy week starting).

The disciples needed both the direct example and teachings of Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit.

They needed both, before going out to spread the gospel, empowered by God on high.

I don't think half baked missionaries do anyone any favors.
 
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What on earth do you think 3-1/2 years of discipling Christ then waiting on the indwelling Holy Spirit before going out to spread the gospel was, exactly?
Following up on post 58, here's what I wanted to add:

It's pretty rare that Jesus repeated the same parable twice. When it happens, therefore, we ought to pay special attention - He could be trying to teach us a mission-critical lesson. As it turns out, He twice repeated the miracle of overflowing the fishing nets with fish, since "I will make you fishers of men." It's a lesson about evangelism and missions. What's the lesson? Initially, Peter set out to fish WITHOUT DIVINE AUTHORIZATION (this is just like Israel marching out to battle without a distinct ("loud and clear") sign from heaven - they stood to lose). THEN Christ spoke a word of authorization, "Cast out your nets one more time". And the end result? Revival! The nets (the local churches) literally became too full of fish (new converts) for the disciples to viably manage.

That's the cruciality of Direct Revelation - and it has NOTHING to do with exegetically verifying the voice/message.
 
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