How do you get saved?

[Tomb523]

If Paul were referring to the works of the law in Ephesians 2:8-9, he would have said so, as was in the case of Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20.

You must also consider that in Titus 3:4-7 Paul is speaking of "works of righteousness which we have done" that we are not saved by them. Is this only referring to the works of the law, or is it referring to real works of righteousness of all kinds, across the board? Most assuredly it is referring to works of righteousness across the board, that we are not saved by them.

Then you must also consider that grace and works are mutually exclusive concerning what saves us, in Romans 11:5-6.

And taking a look at Romans 2:6-11:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God.

This scripture is very much like that of John 5:29, And shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now of course in this latter passage the question to be asked is, have you ever done evil? The obvious answer based on scripture is yes; we have all done evil (Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23, etc.). Therefore I conclude that we will all be raised unto the resurrection of damnation.

The only way anyone can be raised to the resurrection of life is if they have done good. Has anyone done good? Romans 3:12 would tell us that no one has.

Let that sink into your heart.

If anyone places their trust in their own living of a good life to get them the resurrection of life, they will find that they have done evil and they have not done good; and are therefore worthy of the resurrection of damnnation.

If you want the good news, let me know.

So you're mixing two different aspects: Salvation (Justification) and Sanctification. We are indeed not saved by works, but our on going sanctification includes our behavior of which we play a role in executing. This is why we say no one is perfect, that we all sin. We all sin, even those that believe because in our transformation we are still subject to temptation. Once we have been justified through faith in Jesus, our on going sanctification requires us to make decisions to "do the right thing". To flee temptation. Those are active cases, not passive.

 

[Tomb523]

It is God who worketh within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure. We become fortified against sin as we hide the word of the Lord in our hearts. He transforms us by the renewing of our minds. This is how sanctification happens. And of course, when our minds are renewed, we will begin to have an inclination toward doing righteousness and eschewing evil. There is no doubt about that.

The thing I would warn against would be to be fake as a Christian. If we are "trying" to be good, then we will clean the outside of the cup and dish, but what about the inside? It will remain unchanged because we are only changing the outside through conscious effort. When the Holy Spirit does the sanctifying, he begins by convicting our souls of whatever sin we have committed. Then we pray and confess that sin. And finally, He creates an unconscious holiness in us concerning that sin as a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit, as He changes us from the inside out. The confessing of that sin does make us conscious of the fact that it is sin; but until we obtain an unconscious holiness concerning that sin as a work of the Holy Spirit within our lives, the change is merely outward and Jesus would rebuke us as He did the scribes and Pharisees, that we ought to clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside will also be clean.

Yes, we're close, very close! As I mentioned, we are motivated by the Holy Spirit, but He doesn't take over our minds and bodies to make use always do the right thing. He makes us want to do the right thing for sure, but it is still up to us to do or not do and sometimes, "in the heat of the moment" maybe distracted by pressures of the world we make the wrong choice. If sanctification happened wholly by the Holy Spirit, the choice would not be our, it would just happen. We are always being guided, being taught, but never controlled.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you're mixing two different aspects: Salvation (Justification) and Sanctification. We are indeed not saved by works, but our on going sanctification includes our behavior of which we play a role in executing. This is why we say no one is perfect, that we all sin. We all sin, even those that believe because in our transformation we are still subject to temptation. Once we have been justified through faith in Jesus, our on going sanctification requires us to make decisions to "do the right thing". To flee temptation. Those are active cases, not passive.

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https://www.christianforums.com/threads/sanctification.8070158/

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[justbyfaith]

Yes, we're close, very close! As I mentioned, we are motivated by the Holy Spirit, but He doesn't take over our minds and bodies to make use always do the right thing. He makes us want to do the right thing for sure, but it is still up to us to do or not do and sometimes, "in the heat of the moment" maybe distracted by pressures of the world we make the wrong choice. If sanctification happened wholly by the Holy Spirit, the choice would not be our, it would just happen. We are always being guided, being taught, but never controlled.

The fruit that we bear is what determines our response to any stimuli. If we are not bearing any good fruit, our reactions will be according to that. But if we are bearing that fruit of, for example, love, then our response in any given situation will be according to love; according to that fruit which is the determining factor concerning our responses.

 

[justbyfaith]

Temptation also is not a sin; it is giving in to temptation that is sin. James 1:14-15.

 

[Tomb523]

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https://www.christianforums.com/threads/sanctification.8070158/

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Yep, your last line is spot on!
"I find that He points those kinds of things out less and less as time passes, because He is sanctifying me on a daily basis, and I am becoming more and more like Christ through being immersed in His word from day to day (Romans 8:29, Romans 12:1-2)."

So we totally agree except that I say it's not magical, but by our effort to keep our eye on Him, we become more and more like Him and our motivation to do so is guided the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tomb523]

The fruit that we bear is what determines our response to any stimuli. If we are not bearing any good fruit, our reactions will be according to that. But if we are bearing that fruit of, for example, love, then our response in any given situation will be according to love; according to that fruit which is the determining factor concerning our responses.

Agreed! And every day I fruit gets a little riper.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you're mixing two different aspects: Salvation (Justification) and Sanctification. We are indeed not saved by works, but our on going sanctification includes our behavior of which we play a role in executing. This is why we say no one is perfect, that we all sin. We all sin, even those that believe because in our transformation we are still subject to temptation. Once we have been justified through faith in Jesus, our on going sanctification requires us to make decisions to "do the right thing". To flee temptation. Those are active cases, not passive.

I was also responding to someone who believes that they are saved by their works. For them, they cannot be justified unless they live a perfect life of holiness (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48); as they are putting their trust in their works.

If they were putting their trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, that would be a different story. They would be justified thereby. Their sins would be washed away in the blood of Jesus; and God would not hold their iniquity against them. And the Holy Spirit within them would be producing works that are truly good. Not the kind produced by the unbeliever, which God sees as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). They would be producing the righteousness of faith (Philippians 3:9); which is fine linen before the Lord (Revelation 19:8).

 

[Tomb523]

Temptation also is not a sin; it is giving in to temptation that is sin. James 1:14-15.

Perfect! You're correct. Giving into it or not is an active voice, an effort (at least not to give into it or (unconsciously remember and consciously act) to turn our eyes back to him.

I believe we are in pretty much agreement. There may be some minor semantic mis-alignments, but not that take away from the concept we both are expressing.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yep, your last line is spot on!
"I find that He points those kinds of things out less and less as time passes, because He is sanctifying me on a daily basis, and I am becoming more and more like Christ through being immersed in His word from day to day (Romans 8:29, Romans 12:1-2)."

So we totally agree except that I say it's not magical, but by our effort to keep our eye on Him, we become more and more like Him and our motivation to do so is guided the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I find that my effort is motivated by a desire within my heart given to me by the Holy Spirit, so it is not something that I have to muster up.

 

[DM25]

Initially (Ephesians 2:8-9), but not ultimately (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

What is being preached is the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God, which, sadly, many Christians have become unable to endure (cf. 2 Timothy 4:2-4): that Biblical Christianity is a works-righteousness religion. For to continue to be seen as righteous by God, Christians must continue to do righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26, James 1:27). And they must continue to repent from any sin that they commit (James 1:27b; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29).

If you think Christianity is a works-based faith, then you do not know Christ. The number one apologetic argument is that Christianity is the only faith where salvation is not based on works unlike every other religion. That's what brings people to the faith because the message of the gospel is clear and true and it makes perfect sense. We are humans who live in the flesh and we will never be perfect, so we need a saviour to save us from sin. If you deny that, you deny Christ because adding works to salvation undermines what Christ did for us and is unbiblical and not true Christianity.

 

[Bible2+]

justbyfaith said in post #111:

If eternal life is based on what we do, then Ephesians 2:8-9 is a lie . . .

No, for Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to initial salvation, which is without works, while ultimate salvation requires works (Matthew 7:21).

justbyfaith said in post #111:

. . . we will also continue in His goodness if we have a living and saving faith.

Not necessarily, because of free will (Luke 12:45-46).

Also, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

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justbyfaith said in post #112:

A person can have all kinds of good works and still be a worker of iniquity, unsaved (Matthew 7:22-23).

Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

justbyfaith said in post #112:

Focus on having your roots planted firmly in the ground, and you will bear fruit.

Not necessarily, because of free will (John 15:2a).

justbyfaith said in post #112:

Instead of drawing up nourishment from the vine, you would be focused on striving to produce fruit.

It's not either/or, but both/and (Luke 13:24, Philippians 3:14).

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justbyfaith said in post #120:

It is God who worketh within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

But we have to also work ourselves (Philippians 2:12b).

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justbyfaith said in post #128:

If they were putting their trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, that would be a different story.

Only Jesus Christ can save people from hell (John 14:6, John 3:36), by His sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25), and by the ability that He gives Christians to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit the fact that there is no assurance that every Christian will choose to do all of these things to the end.

OSAS ultimately negates free will.

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justbyfaith said in post #130:

I find that my effort is motivated by a desire within my heart given to me by the Holy Spirit, so it is not something that I have to muster up.

But because of free will, you still have to choose to yield to it (Romans 6:19).

And not every Christian chooses to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29).

2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[Bible2+]

Tomb523 said in post #113:

Philippians 1:6 ESV
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Tomb523 said in post #113:

So once we are saved, we are motivated by the Holy Spirit, but sanctification still requires an effort on our part.

That's right, because of free will (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:21).

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Tomb523 said in post #117:

There is effort necessary on the part of the Christian.

Amen (Titus 3:8).

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Tomb523 said in post #121:

Once we have been justified through faith in Jesus, our on going sanctification requires us to make decisions to "do the right thing".

Also, our ultimate justification requires us to make decisions to do the right thing (James 2:24).

 

[Bible2+]

Phil 1:21 said in post #114:

It always amazes me how many folks get the cause/effect inverted in this regard.

God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

 

[Bible2+]

DM25 said in post #131:

If you think Christianity is a works-based faith, then you do not know Christ.

Note that Christ made clear that ultimate salvation requires works (Matthew 7:21), and continued repentance (Luke 13:3).

And Christ's followers taught the same thing (Romans 2:6-8. James 2:24, Hebrews 10:26-29).

DM25 said in post #131:

The number one apologetic argument is that Christianity is the only faith where salvation is not based on works unlike every other religion.

Initial salvation is not based on works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

DM25 said in post #131:

We are humans who live in the flesh and we will never be perfect, so we need a saviour to save us from sin.

If we sin, there is provision for our forgiveness (1 John 1:9).

DM25 said in post #131:

. . . you deny Christ because adding works to salvation undermines what Christ did for us . . .

No, requiring works for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9) does not undermine what Christ did (and also does) for us.

For it is only by our continuing to abide in Him that we are able to believe, and do, the right things (Hebrews 12:2, John 15:4-5, Philippians 2:12-13). On our own, there is no way that we can ever save ourselves from hell. Also, Jesus is both our Savior and our King, our Lord: His name "Jesus", which means "YHWH the Savior" (cf. Isaiah 43:11), points to His role as our Savior (Matthew 1:21). And His title of the "Christ", which means the "Anointed" (cf. 2 Samuel 12:7), points to His role as our King (Mark 15:32), our Lord (2 Peter 1:11).

 

[expos4ever]

If you think Christianity is a works-based faith, then you do not know Christ.

Not a fair tactic, anyone could say this about someone with whom they disagreed.

We are humans who live in the flesh and we will never be perfect, so we need a saviour to save us from sin.

A bit of a strawman - many of us who believe Paul in Romans 2:6-7 (where he clearly links eternal life to how we conduct our lives), do not claim that we need to be perfect to be awarded eternal life based on deeds.

If you deny that, you deny Christ because adding works to salvation undermines what Christ did for us and is unbiblical and not true Christianity.

Argumentative and does not advance your argument.

What, exactly, do you think Paul is telling us in Romans 2:6-7?

 

[justbyfaith]

If anyone is truly one of God's elect, having a living and saving heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10), so that it will endure to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22), that faith seals them in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) so that they have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither can anyone pluck them out of God's hand (John 10:27-30).

Not only is never an absolute word, so that when it says they shall never perish, it means NEVER, but the quality of the life given is that it is eternal, or everlasting. Such a life can never end.

Now this is not talking about a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm (Revelation 3:16) faith that is only based on an emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40), but it is speaking of a heart faith that is both living and saving.

Such a faith will always produce works if given the opportunity (Matthew 7:21); however it is not the works that save (Ephesians 2:9 and context, also Romans 4:5 and context, also Titus 3:4-7); but the living faith.

Again, if I am firmly planted in the ground (good soil) by my roots, I am certain to bear good fruit in the long run. But if I am uprooted and am seeking to bear fruit, I will not be able to, I am cut off from the nourishment that comes from being planted in the ground.

Likewise, all a plant needs to grow and bear fruit is to be planted firmly in good soil. You never see a healthy tree going "AArrrgghhh! I've gotta bear fruit!" No. It bears good fruit because it is a healthy tree that is nourished from the ground (by the doctrines of grace in the word of God).

 

[justbyfaith]

A bit of a strawman - many of us who believe Paul in Romans 2:6-7 (where he clearly links eternal life to how we conduct our lives), do not claim that we need to be perfect to be awarded eternal life based on deeds.

However, the Bible teaches that if you are going to put your trust in your works (i.e. seek to earn eternal life based on deeds), you had better be perfect in everything you do from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

Real faith in Jesus Christ will make a man a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), so that his attitude of faith means that he will seek for glory, honour, and immortality; while at the same time a person who understands the gospel knows that he is not saved by his works. His attitude of faith will most assuredly result in him doing good works: but again, it is not his works that save him, but his attitude of faith.

A person can have many good works in their life, and not be saved (Matthew 7:22-23). Therefore works do not save, apart from faith. In fact, some works are even dead works that need to be repented of in the foundational beginnings of your faith (Hebrews 6:1-2).

Works that you do in order to be accepted by God are dead works, apart from faith.

The only thing that will get anyone acceptance before God is faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Galatians 2:16, John 14:6).

 

[Phil 1:21]

However, the Bible teaches that if you are going to put your trust in your works (i.e. seek to earn eternal life based on deeds), you had better be perfect in everything you do from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

Real faith in Jesus Christ will make a man a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), so that his attitude of faith means that he will seek for glory, honour, and immortality; while at the same time a person who understands the gospel knows that he is not saved by his works. His attitude of faith will most assuredly result in him doing good works: but again, it is not his works that save him, but his attitude of faith.

A person can have many good works in their life, and not be saved (Matthew 7:22-23). Therefore works do not save, apart from faith. In fact, some works are even dead works that need to be repented of in the foundational beginnings of your faith (Hebrews 6:1-2).

Works that you do in order to be accepted by God are dead works, apart from faith.

The only thing that will get anyone acceptance before God is faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Galatians 2:16, John 14:6).

Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.

 

[justbyfaith]

Amen, brother. When I hear people preach of works-based salvation I have to wonder what, exactly, they think happened at Calvary.

Hello brother. I would invite you to the other thread on this subject, as there I am arguing from a slightly different bent, taking a closer look at Romans 8:12-13 in some of the later posts.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-i-actually-be-saved.8072098/