How do you get saved?

[expos4ever]

Paul the apostle--if you count him as being a scholar. St. John the Beloved--if you count him as being authoritative. For they wrote:

Romans 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Your reasoning is circular - nothing in these texts requires us to understand that the Law of Moses applies to everyone.

You are holding to a position almost no one else accepts.

Again, name one Biblical scholar who
shares your highly unorthodox view.

 

[expos4ever]

Again, I certainly agree that the Law of Moses embodies universal moral principles. But so does American law; however, I, as a Canadian, am not subject to American law.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your reasoning is circular - nothing in these texts requires us to understand that the Law of Moses applies to everyone.

You are holding to a position almost no one else accepts.

Again, name one Biblical scholar who
shares your highly unorthodox view.

My view is simply the truth, and is not unorthodox in the slightest...I would encourage you to obey Psalms 1 concerning these scriptures and meditate on them as to their true meaning...it is absolutely clear to me that this is what they mean.

Also, I don't spend a lot of time paying attention to the opinions of Bible scholars...I prefer to obtain my interpretations from the author of the Book.

Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart...

 

[expos4ever]

The gospel is so simple that a child can understand it; and yet it is so complex that the greatest theologians cannot plumb the depths of what it entails.

Alright then, you explain to me what happened at the cross if its so simple. And we can take it from there. The fact is that there have been major disagreements in the Church over the centuries as to what meaning to ascribe to the cross.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I certainly agree that the Law of Moses embodies universal moral principles. But so does American law; however, I, as a Canadian, am not subject to American law.

However, you are subject to the law of God in some way, shape, or form.

If you are not redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ alone, then the law condemns you...if you are redeemed and thus spiritually-minded, then you are subject to it in your mind (Romans 8:7), and it is also written in your heart and on your mind (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16).

 

[expos4ever]

My view is simply the truth, and is not unorthodox in the slightest...
Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart...

Yout view is NOT orthodox; no reputable scholar holds it.

And please, let’s dispense with the sermons.

 

[justbyfaith]

Alright then, you explain to me what happened at the cross if its so simple. And we can take it from there. The fact is that there have been major disagreements in the Church over the centuries as to what meaning to ascribe to the cross.

It is explained in Romans 3:25-26. The wrath of God was appeased (propitiation) through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. There are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of God...justice and mercy. Justice requires that everyone get the due penalty for their sins, mercy desires that we get less than what we deserve, even total forgiveness. Justice is satisfied and mercy can still be given, in that Jesus died on the Cross in our place, taking the penalty for our sins, bringing forgiveness to all who will believe in Him, receive Him, and put their trust in Him, turning away from sin and receiving the new desire for righteousness, even to obey His teachings.

SIMPLE.

 

[expos4ever]

I am surprised to hear anyone suggest that Paul believes that all hunanity is under the Law of Moses.

There are several texts that definitely prove otherwise. Look at the end of Romans 3, for example.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yout view is NOT orthodox; no reputable scholar holds it.

And please, let’s dispense with the sermons.

It is what the Bible teaches. If those who claim to be orthodox don't hold to it, they are not truly orthodox since they reject the teaching of God's word.

And I'm also certain that some or even most reputable Bible scholars hold to it...not all of them would wish to be called least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20) over denying that the law of God applies to us today, saying that it applies only to the Jews.

btw, if the law applies only to Jewish people, then only Jewish people can come to Christ...for the law is a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).

 

[justbyfaith]

I am surprised to hear anyone suggest that Paul believes that all hunanity is under the Law of Moses.

There are several texts that definitely prove otherwise. Look at the end of Romans 3, for example.

You're going to have to be more specific.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am surprised to hear anyone suggest that Paul believes that all hunanity is under the Law of Moses.

There are several texts that definitely prove otherwise. Look at the end of Romans 3, for example.

btw, I didn't say he believes all humanity is under the law of Moses...the church is not under the law....but Paul does not exempt the Gentiles outside of Christ from being under the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yout view is NOT orthodox; no reputable scholar holds it.

And please, let’s dispense with the sermons.

Also, my view is highly orthodox, being the teaching of the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Go to the following link to see my full view on this subject:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...paint-principle-the-complete-version.8043488/

 

[justbyfaith]

No scholar would agree with you - we should not even need to discuss this. It is clear beyond all reason from a wide range of Old and New Testament texts that the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

Name one Biblical scholar - and I mean a real scholar with real credentials - who would agree that the Law of Moses was not for Jew only.

Off the top of my head, I can name three scholars who acknowledge the Law of Moses was for the Jews and Jews only: NT Wright, E.P. Sanders, and J.G. Dunn.

I will address the two texts you cited later on - they do not support this idea that the Law of Moses was universal in its scope of application.

I've never heard of these names; what theological tradition do they hail from?

 

[GingerBeer]

We are saved, born again by obeying the Gospel, (which is repenting) which is by grace through faith, because of God’s great love and mercy towards us.

By grace through faith, you wrote. That's from Ephesians 2 isn't it.

Ephesians 2:1-10

1 And you were once dead in your sins and offenses, 2 in which you walked in times past, according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of this sky, the spirit who now works in the sons of distrust. 3 And we too were all conversant in these things, in times past, by the desires of our flesh, acting according to the will of the flesh and according to our own thoughts. And so we were, by nature, sons of wrath, even like the others. 4 Yet still, God, who is rich in mercy, for the sake of his exceedingly great charity with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our sins, has enlivened us together in Christ, by whose grace you have been saved. 6 And he has raised us up together, and he has caused us to sit down together in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that he may display, in the ages soon to arrive, the abundant wealth of his grace, by his goodness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. 9 And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk.​

And the gospel message that we've heard is printed in the synoptic gospels with the words
Mark 1:14-15

14Then, after John was handed over, Jesus went into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying: "For the time has been fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near. Repent and believe in the Gospel."​

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

• not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This can be summed up with the word “believe”.

A better summary is at the end of Mark's gospel.
Mark 16:14-20

14 Finally, he appeared to the eleven, as they sat at table. And he rebuked them for their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen that he had risen again. 15 And he said to them: "Go forth to the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever will have believed and been baptized will be saved. Yet truly, whoever will not have believed will be condemned. 17 Now these signs will accompany those who believe. In my name, they shall cast out demons. They will speak in new languages. 18 They will take up serpents, and, if they drink anything deadly, it will not harm them. They shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they will be well." 19 And indeed, the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and he sits at the right hand of God. 20 Then they, setting out, preached everywhere, with the Lord cooperating and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.​

We are saved, born again, regenerated by believing the Gospel.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Again, believe carries the meaning of trust and commit to obey; hear Hid voice and follow.

He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB

 

[JLB777]

By grace through faith, you wrote. That's from Ephesians 2 isn't it.

Ephesians 2:1-10

1 And you were once dead in your sins and offenses, 2 in which you walked in times past, according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of this sky, the spirit who now works in the sons of distrust. 3 And we too were all conversant in these things, in times past, by the desires of our flesh, acting according to the will of the flesh and according to our own thoughts. And so we were, by nature, sons of wrath, even like the others. 4 Yet still, God, who is rich in mercy, for the sake of his exceedingly great charity with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our sins, has enlivened us together in Christ, by whose grace you have been saved. 6 And he has raised us up together, and he has caused us to sit down together in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that he may display, in the ages soon to arrive, the abundant wealth of his grace, by his goodness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. 9 And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk.​

And the gospel message that we've heard is printed in the synoptic gospels with the words
Mark 1:14-15

14Then, after John was handed over, Jesus went into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying: "For the time has been fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near. Repent and believe in the Gospel."​

A better summary is at the end of Mark's gospel.
Mark 16:14-20

14 Finally, he appeared to the eleven, as they sat at table. And he rebuked them for their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen that he had risen again. 15 And he said to them: "Go forth to the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever will have believed and been baptized will be saved. Yet truly, whoever will not have believed will be condemned. 17 Now these signs will accompany those who believe. In my name, they shall cast out demons. They will speak in new languages. 18 They will take up serpents, and, if they drink anything deadly, it will not harm them. They shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they will be well." 19 And indeed, the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and he sits at the right hand of God. 20 Then they, setting out, preached everywhere, with the Lord cooperating and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.​

I agree.




JLB

 

[Bible2+]

justbyfaith said in post #158:

Now this is not talking about a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm (Revelation 3:16) faith that is only based on an emotional experience (Luke 8:13) or mental assent to the tenets of the gospel (John 5:39-40), but it is speaking of a heart faith that is both living and saving.

Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

justbyfaith said in post #158:

Such a faith will always produce works . . .

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #160:

Our salvation is based on the merits of Christ alone.

Indeed (John 14:6). But our ultimate salvation still requires works on our part (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9).

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

justbyfaith said in post #160:

We begin to place out hope in our own goodness and ability to keep the law to save us...and our trust is misplaced...

That's right.

For on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

*******

justbyfaith said in post #169:

...not all of them would wish to be called least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20) over denying that the law of God applies to us today . . .

Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself in Philippians 3:5-14.

justbyfaith said in post #169:

...not all of them would wish to be called least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-20) over denying that the law of God applies to us today . . .

Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for He did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for He could not possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with His own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow His disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #159:

Anybody who thinks they are “ good enough” to merit salvation is damned . . .

Even obedient Christians must never think that they are good enough to merit ultimate salvation (Luke 17:10).

But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21).

-

But some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[justbyfaith]

In Matthew 5:17-20 (which I quote below), it is not the prophecies of the Old Testament alone that are fulfilled by Christ, but the law itself is magnified by Him (Isaiah 42:21).

Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

A few points here. In context, Jesus is clearly referring to the Old Testament law. He says clearly that every letter of the law is still valid for today (i.e. one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from it). If we break one of the least of the commandments in the Old Testament law, and teach men so, our reward in heaven will be lessened. And then, the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was that they were sticklers for the law; their outward righteousness was impeccable. Therefore we must have an inward righteousness that exceeds their outward righteousness, if we are even going to enter into heaven.

In the remainder of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explains how the Old Testament law is not merely outward, but how in specific ways (He is not extensive), it applies to the heart and not just outward behaviour.

Now it is also clear from scripture (Romans 8:4-7, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16) that as believers in Christ, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4; Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10) because in our minds we are subject to the law of God, being spiritually-minded (Romans 8:7); and that the law of God is written in our hearts and on our minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Jeremiah 31:33), as believers under the New Covenant.

Now love is definitely the fulfilling of the law; but think: what this means is that if I love my neighbor as myself, I am not going to (Romans 13:8-10) commit adultery with his wife, kill him, steal from him, lie about him, covet anything that belongs to him; and neither will I break any other commandment in the law that applies to my relationship to him (Romans 13:9).

It is clear from 1 John 5:3 and 2 John 1:6 that to love God is to keep His commandments. And God is not the God only of the New Testament.

Now in the New Testament we are not required to keep His commandments for salvation, such as the Old Testament food laws (1 Timothy 4:1-6); however because we are saved we ought to consider keeping all of the commandments out of love for God. If I don't, then God is able to make me stand (Romans 14:4), as there is forgiveness in Him. But sin is defined by the law of God (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), and therefore if I break any part of the law of God, I am sinning (James 2:10, Galatians 3:10). However, as a believer in Christ, I am not under the law (Romans 6:14), am dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and am delivered from the law (Romans 7:6); and therefore the law no longer points me out as a sinner when I violate the law of God (Romans 4:8, Romans 5:13, Romans 4:15 w/ 1 John 3:4; in conjunction w/ Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19). Nevertheless I am governed from the inside by the principles of the law (which amount to the love of God) (again, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4-7, Romans 5:5 w/ Romans 13:8-10); while I am not condemned from the outside by commandments written on stone (Romans 4:8, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19). Rather, the commandments are written on the fleshy tablet of my human heart (2 Corinthians 3:2-3). The love of God is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5) because of my faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14); and this love, worked out in my life not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18), is the fulfilling of the law: being a supernatural work that the Lord does in my heart. He also causes me to walk in His statutes and in His judgments because I am born again (Ezekiel 36:25-27). He works within me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

 

[justbyfaith]

But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21).

He will also give unbelievers credit (1 Corinthians 4:5, Isaiah 57:12).