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So it is possible for one to be a "real" and "true" disciple of Christ, as Judas and the other 11, and fall away.I completely agree that the apostles were capable of failing to abide in Christ. Jesus made that clear in John 15.
So it is possible for one to be a "real" and "true" disciple of Christ, as Judas and the other 11, and fall away.
Thanks for the reply. I am not ignoring as you assume. Words have meaning attached to them . Big difference between poisonous things and things that can spring up to eternal life
5th Kingdom said:
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them,
saying, The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [the church]
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
The kingdom of God is not likened as tares as you assume. Tares represent unbelief no faith. Good seed represents faith or wheat
The enemy of the church sows tares (Not is tares)
Tares do not transform into wheat [tares are AMONG the wheat ] Tares are not wheat.
They are considered wormwood the plant’s poisonous bitter nature symbolic of God’s bitter judgement.
Two different kind of plants. Tares is also toxic to animals and
humans. Like all poisons in the bible whether from reptiles or plants
it represents false prophecy .
False prophecy (tares) will not harm the believer who eats the wheat and does not go beyond that which is written, called tares.
John 6 took place very early in Jesus’ ministry and at that point Judas was a devil. I don’t think he ever truly believed.
So it is possible for one to be a "real" and "true" disciple of Christ, as Judas and the other 11, and fall away.
This is called having faith in one’s faith, aka “fiduciary faith”. Almost as if one must simply resolve to keep believing no matter what, a notion set forth by Luther at one point as I recall. “As long as I believe that I believe then I believe that I must be saved.” Anyway, it places way to much of the onus for our salvation on faith alone.So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....
To "fall from Grace",..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands..."im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a deceiver, by the Devil.
Paul teaches this as "Who has bewitched you"... in Galatians.
The born again get subverted away from their initial ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
Still born again, but faith corrupted...or "in the flesh", as Paul teaches.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.
See, this faith corrupted person can't SEE that you can't be more saved than you are, when you are born again....and remain so.
They can't SEE this, because their mind is blinded to this truth, as that is the devil's ability to cause this, by building a stronghold in their mind that is a subverting of real faith.
Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT : "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
The mind blinded faith corrupted, can't SEE this, as this eternal truth has become veiled to them, as this is how the Law that they are trying to maintain to "stay saved", has blinded them.
Its Satan using a person's self righteousness to cause this mind blinded stronghold.
This Legalist has no FAITH anymore that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.
A person who has become .."im doing this or im not to do that"..and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost"""""" this person cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
"Fallen from Grace".
Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.
So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven... and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, to commandment keep.... as your Cross that decides if you go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.
So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross," to get you into heaven.. and maintain your RIGHTEOUSNESS.
See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has lost sight of the Truth..., then they are faith subverted because they have a Mental STRONGHOLD that is their spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".
Its to exist in that spiritual blindness as your actual Faith.
And if you are there, you can't SEE it.
THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6
Agreed.
There is a difference between the seeds sown by Satan
and the seed sown by God. There is a difference between
the "children of Satan" and the "children of God", even though
BOTH are part of the church (the "wheat" and the "tares")
(4) Contrary to the unlearned ASSUMPTION of many, there is
a HUGE difference between the (temporal) "Kingdoms of Heaven"
and the (eternal) "Kingdom of God". I will be glad to explain the
differences (with Scriptures) if you REALLY want to know the
difference. If you want what you want - instead of Bible Truth,
then please don't waste my time by asking to see the difference.
This is called having faith in one’s faith, aka “fiduciary faith”. Almost as if one must simply resolve to keep believing no matter what, a notion set forth by Luther as I recall. “As long as I believe that I believe then I believe that I must be saved.” Anyway, it places way to much of the onus of our salvation on faith alone.
Yes, faith is both a gift-and a very human act as we respond to and embrace that gift.Not a faith of our own according to a work we can do . We are considered faithless from birth.. . no faith not little, none.
Of course not. The purpose of the church is basically to introduce us to God.We would never assume the power is of the church (us.) His faith that works in us abides with us.
Yes, but faith doesn't necessarily accomplish this by itself; rather it's the doorway to this love because it's the doorway to God, the very Source of love. So Paul could say in 1 Cor 13:Not a faith of our own according to a work we can do . We are considered faithless from birth.. . no faith not little, none.
This is called having faith in one’s faith, aka “fiduciary faith”. Almost as if one must simply resolve to keep believing no matter what, a notion set forth by Luther at one point as I recall. “As long as I believe that I believe then I believe that I must be saved.” Anyway, it places way to much of the onus for our salvation on faith alone.
As a teaching I’m familiar with puts it, quoting a 16th century believer:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
Yes, faith is both a gift-and a very human act as we respond to and embrace that gift.
The purpose of the church is basically to introduce us to God.
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were "indwelt" with the
Holy Spirit of God (born again).
Thats absolutely inaccurate. It was written of those who received Christ and believed on His Name during His earthly ministry, had
been born of God Jn 1:11-13
They believed on Him prior to the sending of the Spirit Jn 7:39
5th Kingdom of Heaven said:
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
You are REFUTED with (many) Scriptures. Here are a few
(listed below). But I must say I find it amazing to have to
teach such a BASIC and ESSENTIAL part of the Gospel.
This really is Christian theology 101.
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father,
and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you
all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come,
whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Act 2:1-4
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly
there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared
unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:16-21
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth
beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be
turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great
and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that
whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Now you are DEFLECTING to a different subject altogether...
which means you are constructing a STRAWMAN to knock down.
When you build (and knock down) a strawman you only prove that
(a) you do not understand the SUBJECT of the debate or (b) you
do understand, but cannot win the debate so you DEFLECT into
another subject, so to CONFLATE issues. I will remind you
what MY WORDS were... this is what we are debating:
------------------------------------------------------------------
3) None of the "disciples" or "Apostles" were "indwelt" (born again)
and part of the "Bride of Christ" until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit
was given. This is important because Judas (or Peter) could never
have been "indwelt" by Satan if they were already "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit of God (born again).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have provided you SCRIPTURES showing the Apostles and
disciples of Christ DID NOT receive the "indwelling" Holy Spirit until
Pentecost. That was the SUBJECT of our debate and my position
has been PROVEN by Scripture.
The only question NOW is whether you have SCRIPTURE that says
the Apostles or disciples were "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit BEFORE
the Cross or BEFORE the Day of Pentecost. If you have any such
Scripture I would love to see it.
Jim
You refuted with just one scripture passage Jn 1:12-13
They which believed on His Name during His earthly ministry had been born of God.
No I don't. He knows who they are-while we do not with 100% certainty.First, you are incorrectly implying that someone who was "chosen"
or "elected" before the foundation of the world could be LOST...
when JESUS PROMISES that He will lose NONE.
You clearly contradict Jesus.
As Augustine put it:In other words, it is God's Sovereign Grace that "chooses" us
before we are born and it's God's Sovereign Grace that "conforms"
us into the "image of His son". Man can take ZERO credit...
which demonstrates the heresy of a synergistic "gospel".
The church never moves fast enough on these matters as far as most of us are concerned-but there will always be tares present nonetheless. Either way she preaches what wheat should do, what constitutes the good fruit that should be produced IOW.However, one of the "basic" purposes of the church is to
(a) identify any unsaved "tares" in the church by their "fruit"
of bad behavior
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24OR false "gospels"... like the WORKS GOSPELS
based on synergism.
We gain admission into the kingdom, into God's fellowship, by faith, in response to the grace that provides that gift of faith to begin with. We aren't forced to enter into that relationship, however, nor are we forced to remain in it after entrance. There's no condemnation for anyone who remains, however, which means that by the grace Christ won for us they'll wash their robes (Rev 22:14), they'll overcome sin, they'll put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:12-13), they'll do for "the least of these" (Matt 25:14), they'll obey the commandments (Matt 19:17), all criteria given by which we'll be judged, and all criteria which, when truly and properly met by God's standards, are motivated and accomplished by the love that He'll pour into out our hearts (Rom 5:5) as we continue to draw near to Him and remain there.But, unfortunately, we do not agree for long... since the Saints
(I assume that's WHO you mean, the CONTEXT of your words)
are not "judged on our love", since we already have the "indwelling"
Holy Spirit of our adoption, and Jesus already PAID for all of our sins
and there is, therefore NO CONDEMNATION for the "Bride of Christ".
fhansen said: ↑
Yes, faith is both a gift-and a very human act
as we respond to and embrace that gift.
No I don't. He knows who they are-while we do not
with 100% certainty.
As Augustine put it:
We cannot possibly be saved apart from Him- but we can still refuse to be saved. Christianity 101.
No sin would ever have entered God's creation to begin with-or continue to prevail- if not for this freedom of human and angelic choice.
And that same freedom
... is never completely overridden by God-because He wants
our right choice; that's why He gave man freedom to begin with.
Only grace can free us from this slavery-and yet, as said, we can still resist that grace.
That's the reason for....
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
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