How do we know that the earth is a rotating globe ?

[Job 33:6]

Yes those verses in Job do talk about the seas having boundaries, and they match what God said in Genesis 1:9:

“Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.” (Ge 1:9 NKJV)

Job 38 also says that the sea has clothes and a swaddling band. You seem to be saying that the bars and doors are literal, so do you believe that the clothes and swaddling band of the sea are literal, too? I believe that these are all pictures.

Obviously these passages about the boundaries, doors, bars, and windows of the sea cannot be figurative. Because if they were, then why would there be people who believe that Genesis describes a literal 6-day creation?

 

[David Lamb]

Obviously these passages about the boundaries, doors, bars, and windows of the sea cannot be figurative. Because if they were, then why would there be people who believe that Genesis describes a literal 6-day creation?

The verses in Job 38 say:

“When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;” (Job 38:7-10 NKJV)

Do stars sing? Does the sea come from a womb, wear clothes or a swaddling band? The style is not the same as the far more straightforward statements at the beginning of Genesis, such as:

“So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.” (Ge 1:21-23 NKJV)

 

[Job 33:6]

The verses in Job 38 say:

“When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;” (Job 38:7-10 NKJV)

Do stars sing? Does the sea come from a womb, wear clothes or a swaddling band? The style is not the same as the far more straightforward statements at the beginning of Genesis, such as:

“So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.” (Ge 1:21-23 NKJV)

It's the same ANE cosmology.

Genesis 1:6-8 NIV
[6] And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” [7] So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. [8] God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Genesis 7:11 and 8:2 even talks about doors and floodgates in the sky, and yet every YEC I've ever known is quick to call it a literal narrative.

Genesis 1:14 NIV
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Genesis 1:14 CEB
[14] God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will mark events, sacred seasons, days, and years.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

This really isn't any different than literalist flat earth views.

Vaults, windows, floodgates, domes etc.

More on Genesis:

Genesis 4:10 CEB
[10] The LORD said, “What did you do? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.

Does blood cry out from the ground?

Are women made out of rib bones? Do snakes talk? Etc.

Anyone can play this game of obviously figurative language. But at the end of the day, Genesis describes ancient Israelite cosmology. And it's in plain view for everyone to see.

Or, here is an interesting one:
Genesis 37:35 NASB1995
[35] Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.

Go down to sheol?

The book of Genesis, just as every other book of the old testament, Job included, describes an ancient Israelite cosmology.

 

[David Lamb]

It's the same ANE cosmology.

Genesis 1:6-8 NIV
[6] And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” [7] So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. [8] God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Genesis 7:11 and 8:2 even talks about doors and floodgates in the sky, and yet every YEC I've ever known is quick to call it a literal narrative.

Genesis 1:14 NIV
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

Genesis 1:14 CEB
[14] God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will mark events, sacred seasons, days, and years.

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

This really isn't any different than literalist flat earth views.

Vaults, windows, floodgates, domes etc.

More on Genesis:

Genesis 4:10 CEB
[10] The LORD said, “What did you do? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.

Does blood cry out from the ground?

Are women made out of rib bones? Do snakes talk? Etc.

Anyone can play this game of obviously figurative language. But at the end of the day, Genesis describes ancient Israelite cosmology. And it's in plain view for everyone to see.

Or, here is an interesting one:
Genesis 37:35 NASB1995
[35] Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.

Go down to sheol?

The book of Genesis, just as every other book of the old testament, Job included, describes an ancient Israelite cosmology.

Well, we are never going to agree, are we? Our starting points are different. For you, the Old Testament is based on Ancient Near East cosmology. For me, the whole bible is God's revelation of His truth to mankind.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, we are never going to agree, are we? Our starting points are different. For you, the Old Testament is based on Ancient Near East cosmology. For me, the whole bible is God's revelation of His truth to mankind.

My opinion is based on the words of the Old Testament. I only point out what the text says. If Jacob says that he will go down to Sheol, who am I to call this literal when I know that there is no literal underworld beneath my feet? If Moses speaks of floodgates in the sky, releasing water during the flood, who am I to call this literal? I know that there are no floodgates up there.

The text simply is as it is.

And these are, not coincidentally, the same concepts also shared by at least a half dozen other nations around Israel. Including those that predated Israel.

Another popular example would be passages in which the leviathan is slain in the creation of the cosmos:

By his power, he stilled the Sea; by his understanding, he struck down Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Job 26:12‭-‬13 NRSV

When you smote Litanu, the fleeing serpent, annihilate the twisting serpent, the dominant one who has 7 heads.
KTU 1.5 1-2 (Ugaritic ancient Near East text)

Surely I lifted up the dragon of the two flames. I destroyed the twisting serpent, the tyrant with the seven heads. KTU 1.3.:III:28-46

On that day, the Lord, with his cruel and great and strong sword, will punish Leviathan, the fleeing serpent, Leviathan, the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 27:1 NRSV

You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. You cut openings for springs and torrents; you dried up ever-flowing streams. Yours is the day, yours also the night; you established the luminaries and the sun. You have fixed all the bounds of the earth; you made summer and winter.
Psalms 74:14‭-‬18 NRSV

I don't make these things up. I simply observe.

The Bible shares a historical context with its ancient near east neighbors. And to go take a boat out to the middle of the ocean in search of a multi-headed fire-breathing sea dragon that God will slay in the end times really is a clear misunderstanding of what the Bible is saying. Likewise with Genesis, when I am in an airplane, I'm not looking out the window in search of floodgates.

And YECs are really only doing flat-earthers a service by trying to argue for a literal historical account among these areas of scripture. Because at the end of the day, that's all flat earthers are doing as well.

Here are answers in Genesis, the biggest known YEC organization, arguing that the leviathan is a real animal:

Answers in Genesis seem to think it is scientific that a sea serpent would have multiple heads. It's even reasonable that an animal that lives underwater would breathe fire, though water extinguishes fire.

It's important to recognize that YECs often approach these texts with an interest in affirming the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, which is a respectable goal. However, affirming Scripture’s authority doesn’t necessarily require a strictly literal interpretation. Ancient Israelites likely understood texts like those describing Leviathan or the floodgates as rich, symbolic imagery that communicated theological truths about God’s power, order, and sovereignty over chaos. These images weren’t meant to be scientific descriptions but instead spoke to the audience’s cultural understanding. Acknowledging this doesn’t diminish the truth of Scripture but enhances our appreciation for how God communicated timeless truths through the cultural lens of ancient people. Recognizing these nuances allows us to take the Bible seriously without forcing it into frameworks it wasn’t intended to fit.

 

[David Lamb]

My opinion is based on the words of the Old Testament. I only point out what the text says. If Jacob says that he will go down to Sheol, who am I to call this literal when I know that there is no literal underworld beneath my feet? If Moses speaks of floodgates in the sky, releasing water during the flood, who am I to call this literal? I know that there are no floodgates up there.

The text simply is as it is.

And these are, not coincidentally, the same concepts also shared by at least a half dozen other nations around Israel. Including those that predated Israel.

Another popular example would be passages in which the leviathan is slain in the creation of the cosmos:

By his power, he stilled the Sea; by his understanding, he struck down Rahab. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Job 26:12‭-‬13 NRSV

When you smote Litanu, the fleeing serpent, annihilate the twisting serpent, the dominant one who has 7 heads.
KTU 1.5 1-2 (Ugaritic ancient Near East text)

Surely I lifted up the dragon of the two flames. I destroyed the twisting serpent, the tyrant with the seven heads. KTU 1.3.:III:28-46

On that day, the Lord, with his cruel and great and strong sword, will punish Leviathan, the fleeing serpent, Leviathan, the twisting serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 27:1 NRSV

You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. You cut openings for springs and torrents; you dried up ever-flowing streams. Yours is the day, yours also the night; you established the luminaries and the sun. You have fixed all the bounds of the earth; you made summer and winter.
Psalms 74:14‭-‬18 NRSV

I don't make these things up. I simply observe.

The Bible shares a historical context with its ancient near east neighbors. And to go take a boat out to the middle of the ocean in search of a multi-headed fire-breathing sea dragon that God will slay in the end times really is a clear misunderstanding of what the Bible is saying. Likewise with Genesis, when I am in an airplane, I'm not looking out the window in search of floodgates.

And YECs are really only doing flat-earthers a service by trying to argue for a literal historical account among these areas of scripture. Because at the end of the day, that's all flat earthers are doing as well.

Here are answers in Genesis, the biggest known YEC organization, arguing that the leviathan is a real animal:

Answers in Genesis seem to think it is scientific that a sea serpent would have multiple heads. It's even reasonable that an animal that lives underwater would breathe fire, though water extinguishes fire.

It's important to recognize that YECs often approach these texts with an interest in affirming the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, which is a respectable goal. However, affirming Scripture’s authority doesn’t necessarily require a strictly literal interpretation. Ancient Israelites likely understood texts like those describing Leviathan or the floodgates as rich, symbolic imagery that communicated theological truths about God’s power, order, and sovereignty over chaos. These images weren’t meant to be scientific descriptions but instead spoke to the audience’s cultural understanding. Acknowledging this doesn’t diminish the truth of Scripture but enhances our appreciation for how God communicated timeless truths through the cultural lens of ancient people. Recognizing these nuances allows us to take the Bible seriously without forcing it into frameworks it wasn’t intended to fit.

I feel the difference is that you apply the label "non-literal" not only in passages which are obviously pictorial, like those talking of the sea coming from a womb and wearing swaddling clothes, but also to passages like Genesis 1, where there is no indication that it is a pictorial passage.

 

[Job 33:6]

, but also to passages like Genesis 1, where there is no indication that it is a pictorial passage.

And to that, I would say, if someone reads about floodgates in the sky opening and closing and releasing and restraining waters above (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2), and then turns and reads about a vault in the sky with waters above (Genesis 1), and tries to argue that one is literal while the other is figurative...

Genesis 7:11 NASB1995
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

Genesis 8:2 ESV
[2] The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

Genesis 8:2 NASB1995
[2] Also, the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;

Genesis 1:17 NIV
[17] God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,

Well, that's just not a rational argument. As if it's ok for there to be a literal vault in the sky, but it's somehow not ok for there to be floodgates.

In fact:
Job 22:14 NIV
[14] Thick clouds veil him, so he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens.’

Job 22:14 NASB1995
[14] Clouds are a hiding place for Him so that He cannot see, And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

Job 22:14 NRSV
[14] Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Genesis 1:8 LEB
[8] And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.

Genesis 1:8 NIV
[8] God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Genesis 1:8 NRSV
[8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

Job can be properly translated with the exact same English as Genesis. Because the Hebrew itself is the same. As can other passages throughout the OT.

There is no credible argument that somehow would make Genesis, particularly Genesis 1, less poetic or pictorial than a host of passages from Job or elsewhere in the OT on ancient Israelite cosmology.

Or here is another one:
Psalms 148:4 LEB
[4] Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens.

Genesis 1:7 NIV
[7] So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

As though if the psalmist says that there is water above the heavens, that's pictorial and poetic. But if Genesis says it, then for whatever reason it's not.

That's not a rational position to hold.

YECs, much like flat-earth Christians, do not understand the amount of damage that they're doing to the church. By trying to read these passages literally, as though there is or was an actual vault or dome or vaulted dome in the sky, that restrains water above.

Or it would be additionally wrong to read about Jacob going down to Sheol in Genesis, or the floodgates opening and closing during Noah's flood, etc., and to view them as literal history.

 

[Apple Sky]

“When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This verse tells us who the son's of God are which are mentioned in Genesis 6.

[who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb;

This verse tells us that the sea is being held.

The style is not the same as the far more straightforward statements at the beginning of Genesis, such as:

“So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.” (Ge 1:21-23 NKJV)

Genesis 1 verses are more like explanations, Job verses are more like verbs.

 

[d taylor]

-

​

Joshua knew the earth does not move. That is why Joshua ask God for the sun and moon to stand still and did not asks God to stop the earth from moving (rotating).

 

[Paul4JC]

-

​

Joshua knew the earth does not move. That is why Joshua ask God for the sun and moon to stand still and did not asks God to stop the earth from moving (rotating).

Quite a prayer. Fascinating!

[Jos 10:12-13 NET] The day the LORD delivered the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua prayed to the LORD before Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon! O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon!" The sun stood still and the moon stood motionless while the nation took vengeance on its enemies. The event is recorded in the Scroll of the Upright One. The sun stood motionless in the middle of the sky and did not set for about a full day.

 

[Apple Sky]

Using your eyeballs would be too easy.

What we see is what we get & what I see is the sun moving across the sky along with the moon and all the stars.

Not so long ago Bill Gates wanted to block out the sun, well according the ball earth the earth rotates around the sun & gives the moon her light, so wouldn't this render the moon redundant ?

As the sunlight that was illuminating the Moon disappears, so would the Moon! The same would go for the many other celestial bodies in the sky, such as planets, which we see only because of the Sun's reflected light.

 

[Job 33:6]

What we see is what we get & what I see is the sun moving across the sky along with the moon and all the stars.

Not so long ago Bill Gates wanted to block out the sun, well according the ball earth the earth rotates around the sun & gives the moon her light, so wouldn't this render the moon redundant ?

As the sunlight that was illuminating the Moon disappears, so would the Moon! The same would go for the many other celestial bodies in the sky, such as planets, which we see only because of the Sun's reflected light.

With satellite imagery (which is what Roman had mentioned) you see a lot more than just the sun moving across the sky.

 

[David Lamb]

This verse tells us who the son's of God are which are mentioned in Genesis 6.

Not that I can see. It just tells us what they did, shouted for joy, not who they were.

This verse tells us that the sea is being held.

Yes I agree, but not by literal doors, nor does the sea spring from a literal womb.

Genesis 1 verses are more like explanations, Job verses are more like verbs.

I don't really see what you mean. Genesis 1 tells us what God did. He spoke, He created, He divided, He saw, He blessed - all verbs. The Job verses I quoted have verbs too.

 

[Apple Sky]

With satellite imagery (which is what Roman had mentioned) you see a lot more than just the sun moving across the sky.

So how would you explain Billy G's blocking of the sun ?? How could they do this without affecting the moon ?

 

[David Lamb]

So how would you explain Billy G's blocking of the sun ?? How could they do this without affecting the moon ?

Let me ask you a question How often does an eclipse of the moon occur? Certainly not every day. Only when the earth is directly between the sun and the moon, cutting off the light from the sun from reaching the moon. So if Bill Gates could block the sun's light from reaching the earth, kit wouldn't affect the moon unless the earth was directly between the sun and the moon at the time.

 

[Apple Sky]

Not that I can see. It just tells us what they did, shouted for joy, not who they were.

Yes I agree, but not by literal doors, nor does the sea spring from a literal womb.

I don't really see what you mean. Genesis 1 tells us what God did. He spoke, He created, He divided, He saw, He blessed - all verbs. The Job verses I quoted have verbs too.

Exactly they are all verbs, doing, do, does did & done. Why can't you believe what God has done ?

 

[Apple Sky]

Let me ask you a question How often does an eclipse of the moon occur? Certainly not every day. Only when the earth is directly between the sun and the moon, cutting off the light from the sun from reaching the moon. So if Bill Gates could block the sun's light from reaching the earth, kit wouldn't affect the moon unless the earth was directly between the sun and the moon at the time.

What about the stars ?

 

[David Lamb]

Exactly they are all verbs, doing, do, does did & done. Why can't you believe what God has done ?

I do believe what God has done, including Genesis 1 & 2. Where do you get the idea from that I don't? I still don't understand, especially in view of the post I'm replying to now, why you wrote in your previous post: "Genesis 1 verses are more like explanations, Job verses are more like verbs."

 

[David Lamb]

What about the stars ?

What about them? I don't see how they would come into the question. But then, I really have no idea about what Bill Gates is actually proposing to do, or why.

 

[Apple Sky]

I do believe what God has done, including Genesis 1 & 2. Where do you get the idea from that I don't?

You can't do else you wouldn't believe the earth is a ball.