How do we know Santa Claus doesn't exist?

[InterestedAtheist]

Well, you must excuse me. I live in another part of the world from where you (probably) do, and it's bedtime here. Goodnight! Be back later.

 

[Sanoy]

I didn't say I wanted to prove anything. I just said that I believe Santa exists, and invited you to show me if I was wrong. It seems that you can't.

You set proving a thing as the standard for comparison. You can continue to use a worthless epistemic requirement if you want, hand out worthless invitations, answer questions with questions, but what I asked for was an explanation.

Someone tell me how to get Bruce Banner over here to turn into the credible hulk? Do I put a quarter in it? It's not working!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I didn't say I wanted to prove anything. I just said that I believe Santa exists, and invited you to show me if I was wrong. It seems that you can't.

... but if we do an historical analysis of ALL that you've thus far written on CF, might we be suspect that in line with all of your past assertions and quips about the nature of belief, that for you to 'now' say that you do believe in the most pernicious form of Santa Claus (i.e. that gift giving Kris Kringle), then you don't really mean what you say?

I mean, I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're giving us Double-Speak, not unlike the kind from that wonderful Orwellian book of yesteryear.............................

 

[Tom 1]

I'm sure you'll understand, Tom, that as someone on a worldwide forum I have reasons for not wanting my real identify to be known. Sorry about that. Otherwise, I could just give you my skype address, say, and you could talk to me.
Also, one question at a time.

Lol no need for that. Just a discussion on what it means to know who someone is and what claims they make about themselves, as in what can be known about Santa, what can be known about Jesus, as characters in folklore/literature, what claims are made about them, how do you find out what those are etc. But it’s boring as a plain nuts and bolts discussion.

 

[BigV]

Lol no need for that. Just a discussion on what it means to know who someone is and what claims they make about themselves, as in what can be known about Santa, what can be known about Jesus, as characters in folklore/literature, what claims are made about them, how do you find out what those are etc. But it’s boring as a plain nuts and bolts discussion.

Do you realize how weak your case for Christ is IF it turns out we can't really piece together what historical info for Alexander the Great we have?

Most people can't trace their ancestors 3, 4+ generations ago. And yet, the God of Universe expects people to accept as factual information about Jesus, who supposedly lived 2000+ years ago?

And then, what do we know about Jesus? Jesus, the smartest man in the universe, did not write anything permanent. The information about him comes from ANONYMOUS sources. How is this better than anything we have for Santa?

How do we know information about Jesus? Anonymous sources don't tell us.

 

[cvanwey]

We could use Santa Claus, or instead aliens, demons, spirits, Abraham Lincoln, or any other claimed historical human in history. How do we, as individuals, determine what is true, and what is imaginary? Do we use the following approach below, as a starting criteria?:

Are records acknowledged as fallible?
Are these records first hand accounts?
Are records contemporary with claimed events?
Are events independently corroborated?
Are events plausible under the laws of physics? <-- This seems to be a big one
Are such records verified by concrete relics?
Have such records been reliably preserved?
Are records preserved in their native language?
Are the records politically and socially unbiased? <- This seems to be a big one
How many sources?
Are these sources consistent?

On the other hand, what makes us believe the testimony of a friend speaking in prayer to their believed god, verse not believing another friend whom claims they speak to spirits?

I don't think there is a easy matrix to all of this... Quite frankly.

But honestly, what distinguishes the claims of Jesus, specifically above and beyond other claims of imagination and/or true divinity?

Can we pinpoint, or nail down the criteria???? Or is it instead fallacious reasoning of sorts?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

... but if we do an historical analysis of ALL that you've thus far written on CF, might we be suspect that in line with all of your past assertions and quips about the nature of belief, that for you to 'now' say that you do believe in the most pernicious form of Santa Claus (i.e. that gift giving Kris Kringle), then you don't really mean what you say?
I mean, I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're giving us Double-Speak, not unlike the kind from that wonderful Orwellian book of yesteryear.............................

Not at all, Philo. I refer you back to post# 130. I was challenged by a Christian, who said that there was indeed a difference between Santa and Jesus, which is that Santa can be disproved, and Jesus can't. I responded by issuing a challenge of my own: that neither Santa nor Jesus can be disproved. And it seems I'm right.

You set proving a thing as the standard for comparison. You can continue to use a worthless epistemic requirement if you want, hand out worthless invitations, answer questions with questions, but what I asked for was an explanation.
Someone tell me how to get Bruce Banner over here to turn into the credible hulk? Do I put a quarter in it? It's not working!

Don't worry. It will work. All you have to do is answer my question: can you prove that Santa doesn't exist.
Come on now, it's not like it's difficult. Any eleven-year-old child would be ashamed of you.

Lol no need for that. Just a discussion on what it means to know who someone is and what claims they make about themselves, as in what can be known about Santa, what can be known about Jesus, as characters in folklore/literature, what claims are made about them, how do you find out what those are etc. But it’s boring as a plain nuts and bolts discussion.

Well, it is claimed that Santa is a magical person (a fairy? A demigod? Some northern version of a jinni?) who lives at the North Pole, makes toys for children, and delivers them on Christmas Eve.
I am telling you that I earnestly believe these claims to be true. Can you correct me?

 

[BigV]

But honestly, what distinguishes the claims of Jesus, specifically above and beyond other claims of imagination and/or true divinity?

Christians may have forgotten, but the Bible does provide an answer as to how to distinguish between a real God and a false one!

1 Kings 18:
21 Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”

But the people said nothing.

22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
....
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

Now THAT's an apologetic. The God who does tricks must the real God. But then, why do the Christians use the same arguments for their God that Baal worshippers could have used for their "false" God!?

 

[Silmarien]

I'll pretend to be a person who really does believe that Santa Claus exists, and that it is he who delivers presents every Christmas. You see if you can demonstrate to me that I'm wrong.
Now, as to your first point: you say that it's parents who bring the presents - not, as they tell their children, Santa. Well, of course, I know that's what parents say; but how can you prove to me that this is really true? Have you ever stayed awake, the whole of Christmas night, watching to see that the presents weren't delivered by Santa?

I don't remember ever believing in Santa Claus as a child because it struck me as a mathematical impossibility that someone could circle the whole planet delivering presents in a 24 hour period. I doubt I ever stayed up the whole night, but I'm sure plenty of children actually do, so I don't know why you're acting as if this is a hard task to carry out.

 

[Tom 1]

Not at all, Philo. I refer you back to post# 130. I was challenged by a Christian, who said that there was indeed a difference between Santa and Jesus, which is that Santa can be disproved, and Jesus can't. I responded by issuing a challenge of my own: that neither Santa nor Jesus can be disproved. And it seems I'm right.

Don't worry. It will work. All you have to do is answer my question: can you prove that Santa doesn't exist.
Come on now, it's not like it's difficult. Any eleven-year-old child would be ashamed of you.

Well, it is claimed that Santa is a magical person (a fairy? A demigod? Some northern version of a jinni?) who lives at the North Pole, makes toys for children, and delivers them on Christmas Eve.
I am telling you that I earnestly believe these claims to be true. Can you correct me?

It’s claimed that he is a fictional character.

 

[Tom 1]

Do you realize how weak your case for Christ is IF it turns out we can't really piece together what historical info for Alexander the Great we have?

Most people can't trace their ancestors 3, 4+ generations ago. And yet, the God of Universe expects people to accept as factual information about Jesus, who supposedly lived 2000+ years ago?

And then, what do we know about Jesus? Jesus, the smartest man in the universe, did not write anything permanent. The information about him comes from ANONYMOUS sources. How is this better than anything we have for Santa?

How do we know information about Jesus? Anonymous sources don't tell us.

What is my case for Christ?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I don't remember ever believing in Santa Claus as a child because it struck me as a mathematical impossibility that someone could circle the whole planet delivering presents in a 24 hour period. I doubt I ever stayed up the whole night, but I'm sure plenty of children actually do, so I don't know why you're acting as if this is a hard task to carry out.

Do you have their evidence to present? What you're "sure" of doesn't count, I'm afraid.
And by the way, of course Santa can circle the whole planet delivering presents in 24 hours. He's magical. He can fly on reindeer. He can read children's minds. Given his levels of power, what makes you think 24 hours is a problem for him? Or, for that matter, making any children who happen to be watching go to sleep and then wake up, not remembering that they had done so?

It’s claimed that he is a fictional character.

Can you provide evidence that this claim is reliable?

 

[Tom 1]

Can you provide evidence that this claim is reliable?

That's he's a fictional character?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That's he's a fictional character?

Yes. Why should I believe you when you say Santa isn't real?

 

[Tom 1]

Yes. Why should I believe you when you say Santa isn't real?

If you can point me to the claims of a real Santa then I'll check them out.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you can point me to the claims of a real Santa then I'll check them out.

Tom, don't play his game, bro! He's a time waster. He's already admitted long ago that he's comfortably sitting over in China and, if I remember right, is a Communist sympathizer. So, how much "SANTA" could possibly reside in that intelligent mind of his, really?

Of course, I'm just waiting for the usual "No True-scotsman" garbage to be thrown my way, but let's face the facts of the disbelieving heart.

Besides, we both know Saint Nicolas lives!

 

[Tom 1]

Tom, don't play his game, bro! He's time waster. He's already admitted long ago that he's comfortably sitting over in China and, if I remember right, is a Communist sympathizer. So, how much "SANTA" could possibly reside in intelligent mind of his, really.

Of course, I'm just waiting for the usual "No True-scotsman" garbage to be thrown my way, but let's face the facts of the disbelieving heart.

Besides, we both know Saint Nicolas lives!

I’m bored lol. Occasionally someone says something more interesting than ‘a you tube vid says Jesus isn’t real’ or something of that sort. I post here mostly to see if anything new comes up.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I’m bored lol. Occasionally someone says something more interesting than ‘a you tube vid says Jesus isn’t real’ or something of that sort. I post here mostly to see if anything new comes up.

Alright. Far be it from me to prevent a brother from engaging in some mild (very mild) entertainment....

 

[Sanoy]

Don't worry. It will work. All you have to do is answer my question: can you prove that Santa doesn't exist.
Come on now, it's not like it's difficult. Any eleven-year-old child would be ashamed of you.

Questions aren't answers. Statements are. So how does this credible hulk thing work with you? Is there a resting phase? Do you need to stretch or something? If you can get him to show that would be great, cause Bruce is pretty useless here.

 

[BigV]

What is my case for Christ?

The point was, that no matter what your case for Christ is, it's even weaker if you can't know anything about historical figures such as Alexander the Great.