How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

[Leaf473]

So, by "avoiding lust" (as you said), you've figured out with Jesus's helpful teaching how to obey God's commandment to not commit adultery, literally, strictly, and physically, yet you don't see the commandments as literal, strict, or physical. Not wise at the end of the analysis.



Asked and answered more than once.

Your turn to tell us what you think it means, as I've asked you to do.

If you believe that all of the moral laws / God's laws must be kept literally, strictly, and physically, then why keep the levirate marriage laws physically only up to a point?

If you believe that "God's commandments" in the New Testament refers to the moral laws / God's laws, and if keeping them is how we show our love for God, then it seems like it would be of the highest importance for serious, devout Christians throughout time to figure out exactly what they are.

I talk about the commandments of God here. Do you want me to expand on that?

Well, I'm not big on keeping letters of laws, so I don't have a list of new testament laws. I think if you can manage to love other people as Jesus loved us then you'll have all of the other laws covered.

 

[Leaf473]

The problem with your explanation is at minimum:

• The fruit of the Spirit is your functioning according to God's Commandments, literally, strictly, physically.
• We're talking about the fruit of the Spirt in relation to God's Commandments not secular law.

I was using it as an example of how laws or even instructions, concepts can overlap.

Did the example make sense to you?

 

[Leaf473]

As I said, I don't think you know what it means to love one another. This also goes for loving other people (aka neighbor as self).

When we serve [God] in newness of Spirit, not oldness of letter, we end up obeying God's Commandments in Christ by the Spirit. A new system for keeping God's Commandments vs. the old system. Same 10 Commandments at minimum.

@BobRyan has made that clear for you.

You can't or won't define "moral" so no use in using the word. I can work without it.

I believe I did define moral when we first started out IIRC. Or at least asked a question about it. That is, if God is the standard for right and wrong, aren't all of God's laws moral laws?

If you are able to say that for sure the ten commandments are moral laws, but other laws in the law of Moses are not moral laws, then you must have some sort of working definition for moral laws. That's something we can discuss.

 

[Leaf473]

You can ask Moses when he listed the 12 in Deuteronomy 27:11-13

Exactly! And if we ask John, he believes that Manasseh is a separate tribe, and that Dan is not.

From what I've heard, in the Hebrew mind, the idea of 12 tribes is more important than the actual names of the tribes themselves.

So when you ask, Which tribes are Christians from, the important thing is that Christians are grafted into Israel, and that there are 12 tribes of Israel. imo.

 

[guevaraj]

I believe I did define moral when we first started out IIRC. Or at least asked a question about it. That is, if God is the standard for right and wrong, aren't all of God's laws moral laws? If you are able to say that for sure the ten commandments are moral laws, but other laws in the law of Moses are not moral laws, then you must have some sort of working definition for moral laws. That's something we can discuss.

Brother, happy Sabbath! The so-called "moral laws" are a human category based on the Hebrew word from Exodus 21, translated as "Judgments" (mishpatim). For the Jews, these laws include the Ten Commandments. This grouping does not help to separate the minimum Ten Commandments in the old covenant, as Jesus' answer to "what should I do to inherit eternal life?" in the next passage.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

What I see in the Bible as a difference between the Ten Commandments and the other laws is that the Ten Commandments tell us how not to sin and how to stay on the path of love.

1. God separated these most important laws from others by writing them himself with His finger on two stone tablets.
2. Any law that tells us how not to sin cannot be removed, only "surpassed": expanded to include more.
3. The Ten Commandments tell us how to stay on the path of love for God and neighbor.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, happy Sabbath! The so-called "moral laws" are a human category based on the Hebrew word from Exodus 21, translated as "Judgments" (mishpatim). For the Jews, these laws include the Ten Commandments. This grouping does not help to separate the minimum Ten Commandments in the old covenant, as Jesus' answer to "what should I do to inherit eternal life?" in the next passage.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

What I see in the Bible as a difference between the Ten Commandments and the other laws is that the Ten Commandments tell us how not to sin and how to stay on the path of love.

1. God separated these most important laws from others by writing them himself with His finger on two stone tablets.
2. Any law that tells us how not to sin cannot be removed, only "surpassed": expanded to include more.
3. The Ten Commandments tell us how to stay on the path of love for God and neighbor.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, happy Sabbath!

It will be interesting to see if anyone else who extracts the moral laws / God's laws from the law of Moses uses that same approach.

United in praying Even so come, Lord Jesus!

 

[Guojing]

So when you ask, Which tribes are Christians from, the important thing is that Christians are grafted into Israel, and that there are 12 tribes of Israel. imo.

I have yet to encounter a Christian, who believed that the Body of Christ is grafted into Israel, having a clear idea which tribe they will belong to and which of the 12 will govern them.

Maybe they just don't bother about issues like that, they just love the idea of "being Israel"

 

[Guojing]

I understood. Point was the minute we say agreement on the 10 being in the moral law, we're already in disagreement on the details of the 10. A "finer point" maybe.

Out of curiosity, since you appear to be mostly in agreement with BobRyan regarding the Law, are you also SDA or from a church that hold similar doctrines?

 

[GDL]

Out of curiosity, since you appear to be mostly in agreement with BobRyan regarding the Law, are you also SDA or from a church that hold similar doctrines?

I'm not "from" any church. I'm a member of the Body of Christ and all those things we discussed that His Body is also named as. The Word of God is my standard. When I read or hear anything about His Word, based in any denomination or theological system of interpretation, I simply compare what's said to our Text, exegetically.

I don't know how much BobRyan and I agree or disagree, since I haven't discussed much with him and since I try not to go immediately to looking up affiliations. Even if I do, I find differences within affiliations, so prefer to just talk Scripture. So far, I do agree with much of what I've seen him state because it aligns with our Text IMO. I would like to read more from him but 45k+ posts are a bit much to go through.

Honestly, Guojing, I think denominationalism is a failure of people and an admixture of belief and unbelief. And all is an admixture of immaturity up to some level of maturity. For myself, I've come to avoid all the labels and clubs and simply study what I see in His Word. The clubs are not going to exist where we're going and if we read Ephesians 4, indicate at best an immaturity of His Body being still susceptible to deceit.

Hope this answers your question and that you understand my reasoning.

 

[GDL]

I have yet to encounter a Christian, who believed that the Body of Christ is grafted into Israel, having a clear idea which tribe they will belong to and which of the 12 will govern them.

Maybe they just don't bother about issues like that, they just love the idea of "being Israel"

Won't the governance be under one Head just as is the one Body?

 

[guevaraj]

For myself, I've come to avoid all the labels and clubs and simply study what I see in His Word.

Brother, happy Sabbath! You sound like the kind of person who could help me better understand the message in Hebrews about another "day" of rest. I first understood the first day in Genesis ends in a "morning", followed by Manna spoiling in the "morning", unless the next day was a Sabbath, and finally, I could understand how God prevented Joshua from entering the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert with Manna. For me, the morning-to-morning weekday established in Genesis explained the two announcements in Hebrews. In turn, the two announcements in Hebrews, chapter 3 and 4, verify the morning-to-morning day in Genesis: first, Joshua did not enter God's "day" of rest during the 40 years with Manna in the desert, and secondly, Joshua did not give God's "day" of rest to Judaism, because hearing the story of Manna, written for us from morning-to-morning did Joshua no good, because he wrongly assumed that the Sabbath in the Promised Land at an earlier time from evening-to-evening is the seventh day of the week when God had taught him for 40 years in the desert that the seventh day of the week is from morning-to-morning and not from evening-to-evening.

1. I first understood Genesis day from morning-to-morning.
2. Then I understood that the days with Manna for 40 years were from morning-to-morning.
3. And finally, in Hebrews 3 and 4, the morning-to-morning of the seventh day near the Promised Land does not enter God's Sabbath, which Joshua entered from evening-to-evening before the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

God gave instructions to remember the Sabbath in Jerusalem at an earlier time, from evening-to-evening than the seventh day of the week from morning-to-morning, established in Genesis and confirmed below. Every translation has mistakenly assumed that God's "expression": "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way to refer to the seventh day of the creation week we call Saturday.

long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

I have yet to encounter a Christian, who believed that the Body of Christ is grafted into Israel, having a clear idea which tribe they will belong to and which of the 12 will govern them.

Maybe they just don't bother about issues like that, they just love the idea of "being Israel"

Well... That's kind of what I was getting at, the scriptures themselves don't have a clear "12 tribes" idea imo.

Like I said earlier, if I had to pick a tribe for Christians, it would be Judah.

But you know, when a branch is grafted onto a root, it doesn't take on all the characteristics of the root tree.

So this may not be possible, but suppose you graft a peach branch onto a banana stump. Bananas grow in bunches. But will the resulting fruit on the peach branches grow in bunches? Maybe not.

Likewise, maybe the Christian branches don't carry over the tribal characteristic that is in the Israelite stump.

 

[GDL]

Brother, happy Sabbath! You sound like the kind of person who could help me better understand the message in Hebrews about another "day" of rest. I first understood the first day in Genesis ends in a "morning", followed by Manna spoiling in the "morning", unless the next day was a Sabbath, and finally, I could understand how God prevented Joshua from entering the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert with Manna. For me, the morning-to-morning weekday established in Genesis explained the two announcements in Hebrews. In turn, the two announcements in Hebrews, chapter 3 and 4, verify the morning-to-morning day in Genesis: first, Joshua did not enter God's "day" of rest during the 40 years with Manna in the desert, and secondly, Joshua did not give God's "day" of rest to Judaism, because hearing the story of Manna, written for us from morning-to-morning did Joshua no good, because he wrongly assumed that the Sabbath in the Promised Land at an earlier time from evening-to-evening is the seventh day of the week when God had taught him for 40 years in the desert that the seventh day of the week is from morning-to-morning and not from evening-to-evening.

1. I first understood Genesis day from morning-to-morning.
2. Then I understood that the days with Manna for 40 years were from morning-to-morning.
3. And finally, in Hebrews 3 and 4, the morning-to-morning of the seventh day near the Promised Land does not enter God's Sabbath, which Joshua entered from evening-to-evening before the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

God gave instructions to remember the Sabbath in Jerusalem at an earlier time, from evening-to-evening than the seventh day of the week from morning-to-morning, established in Genesis and confirmed below. Every translation has mistakenly assumed that God's "expression": "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way to refer to the seventh day of the creation week we call Saturday.

long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Honestly, Jorge, I'd have to look into & ponder some of the things you've said about days morning to morning & evening to evening.

And before I go further, I'd like to say I appreciated your approach re: "mishpatim" and was waiting to see if @Leaf473 would say anything meaningful, which did not happen. Whether or not the mishpatim are or include the moral core of God's Law would be a good discussion. "Moral" is not a word that will get the discussion very far with @Leaf473 IMO.

In regard to the "rest" in Hebrews. It's clearly related to obeying God, which in Hebrews 3 is related to faith. It seems clear in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath rest remains (is future) for God's people, that it is rest from works like God rested from His works, and that God's people are commanded to put all effort into entering into that rest/cessation from works so none of them fall in the same pattern of disobedience/lack of faith.

So, in regard to Sabbath, what exactly is the question and how does the d2d vs. e2e have meaning?

Re: Matthew 28:1: Thank you for your translation. I'm glad to see someone making the effort to confirm translations. Here's my very literal translation paying no deference to other English translations or theological preferences:

• And, late [of] sabbath [in] the dawn into one [of] sabbaths, Maria, the woman of Magdala...
  • As you note in your translation:
    • the first clause can be talking about Friday evening. "late" can also be translated as "after" but at root it's talking about an evening between sunset & darkness. I'd just stick with the "evening" root meaning.
    • I can also see how you see the Saturday morning concept. "dawn into one of sabbaths" seems very problematic for a Sunday morning interpretation.
  • From here we'd have to go into all the work that's been done on the death, burial and resurrection timeline, and determine if we're dealing with any other sabbaths along with the normal 7th day, and then into any other Scripture that supports and confirms what the best interpretation of this verse is.

What I've put forth is that I have no camp affiliations and the Word says what He says. I've little to no interest in becoming conformed to the traditions of men.

 

[guevaraj]

I'm glad to see someone making the effort to confirm translations.

Brother, you seem comfortable enough in studying the Scriptures to understand my response to a scholarly paper in my thread titled: "Are different Sabbaths true?" Where I claim that the author did not consider both sides to be true without choosing one over the other as she did, because there is evidence for both truths and that the greater truth must fit all the evidence. I include below the part of her conclusion that I object to.

Clearly, the evidence shows that the morning theory is weak if it uses Gen 1:5 as its foundation. The rest of the biblical data is inconclusive as to when the Jewish day begins, though the texts that we have examined either support the evening theory or only weakly support the morning theory. (J. Amanda McGuire, page 214)​

So, in regard to Sabbath, what exactly is the question and how does the d2d vs. e2e have meaning?

What I see in Hebrews about another "day" of rest is that God wants us to keep His corrected Sabbath in the new covenant. Judaism has not understood that the days of the week are from morning to morning and that the Sabbath given in the Promised Land falls before the seventh day of the week. This means that the Sabbath, as Judaism understands it to this day, has been an ancient human tradition since Joshua that needs correction for those who live outside the Promised Land.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

And before I go further, I'd like to say I appreciated your approach re: "mishpatim" and was waiting to see if @Leaf473 would say anything meaningful, which did not happen.

Well, remember, if you started with the assertion that you have the ability to separate the moral laws / God's laws out of the law of Moses, then the burden is on you to show how it is done.

I'm fairly certain that there isn't a set of moral laws / God's laws that is different from the law of Moses.

But if you want to discuss mishpatim, I'm cool with that.

I believe one example that @guevaraj gave was from Exodus 21
Exodus 21:1 Interlinear: And these are the judgments which thou dost set before them:

The first law listed there is:
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for 6 years. But in the 7th year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

So, would you say that law then qualifies as one of the moral laws / God's laws?

 

[GDL]

Brother, you seem comfortable enough in studying the Scriptures to understand my response to a scholarly paper in my thread titled: "Are different Sabbaths true?" Where I claim that the author did not consider both sides to be true without choosing one over the other as she did, because there is evidence for both truths and that the greater truth must fit all the evidence. I include below the part of her conclusion that I object to.

Clearly, the evidence shows that the morning theory is weak if it uses Gen 1:5 as its foundation. The rest of the biblical data is inconclusive as to when the Jewish day begins, though the texts that we have examined either support the evening theory or only weakly support the morning theory. (J. Amanda McGuire, page 214)​

What I see in Hebrews about another "day" of rest is that God wants us to keep His corrected Sabbath in the new covenant. Judaism has not understood that the days of the week are from morning to morning and that the Sabbath given in the Promised Land falls before the seventh day of the week. This means that the Sabbath, as Judaism understands it to this day, has been an ancient human tradition since Joshua that needs correction for those who live outside the Promised Land.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Honestly, although I've read & worked through many such articles, at this time this topic is not on my list of interests. Also, I'm better able to work through Greek than Hebrew. I do recall some studies that said some Jews at the time of Jesus kept e2e and some m2m, so this needs to be sorted out in analyzing the Gospels.

Sorry not to join in at this time. As you know, even the literal translation I gave that reads "one [of] sabbaths" can also be read as first day of a week. So, it's a lot of work and I'm sure there are countless articles on it. I've read some of them, probably very, very few to say the least. Looks like you're into it. I'll periodically watch to see what you have to say on the matter.

 

[GDL]

Well, remember, if you started with the assertion that you have the ability to separate the moral laws / God's laws out of the law of Moses, then the burden is on you to show how it is done.

I'm fairly certain that there isn't a set of moral laws / God's laws that is different from the law of Moses.

But if you want to discuss mishpatim, I'm cool with that.

I believe one example that @guevaraj gave was from Exodus 21
Exodus 21:1 Interlinear: And these are the judgments which thou dost set before them:

The first law listed there is:
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for 6 years. But in the 7th year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

So, would you say that law then qualifies as one of the moral laws / God's laws?

I said I have the ability? I'd want to look at that statement if you care to point me to it.

A little recap for you from my perspective:

You asked me for a list. I responded that I didn't have one. I likely also said I don't know of one. If I did, I'd pass it along just like I did the 613 Mosaic Laws and told you to jump in and do the work. Both I and @BobRyan pointed you to Paul's list that clearly relates 4+ of the 10 Commandments to the commandment to Love Neighbor. You reject the basics. What's the use of going further?

Also, you say you avoid lust to avoid adultery, yet you reject that all such commandments need to be kept literally, strictly, physically. Why avoid lust if it's not to keep the commandment against physical adultery? You avoid answering such questions. Maybe you avoid lust but not physical adultery. Maybe you hold that command similarly to the commands and statements about homosexual activities which you said may not be what we think they are. I've read studies attempting to justify such behavior. They're unconvincing IMO.

Honestly, I find you to be a bit too cagey to think I can have any real discussions with you. I gave you enough work in some Scriptures for you to interact with only to see you avoid them. You also avoid simplifying this into just discussing even a few of the 10.

If I wanted to get into sorting out mishpatim I'd have jumped in. The post was to you. I doubted you would pursue it, so I watched. You said nothing meaningful to the effort put forth to you. Now that you've said something about it to me, rather than to @guevaraj you raise a similar point that I would have raised. Your discussion is with him, not me. Maybe I'd jump in, Maybe not. It's been a while, but I recall actually sorting through words like statutes, ordinances, judgments and finding them to be a bit difficult to categorically isolate through the Hebrew Text.

 

[Leaf473]

I said I have the ability? I'd want to look at that statement if you care to point me to it.

I thought that was implied here:

Some use the terminology "God's Law." BobRyan posting on this thread is obviously aware of the discussions about Law and uses the terminology "moral law" to distinguish the moral component of Law from the ceremonial component. If I say, "God's Law" BobRyan and I are speaking of the same thing.

If you and others use these terms moral law / God's law which are distinguished from ceremonial law, that sounds to me like you have the ability to distinguish them.

If you or others don't have the ability to distinguish the moral law / God's law from the ceremonial law, then my apologies. I must have misunderstood.

 

[Leaf473]

Both I and @BobRyan pointed you to Paul's list that clearly relates 4+ of the 10 Commandments to the commandment to Love Neighbor. You reject the basics. What's the use of going further?

The entire law of Moses is related to the Commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.

It does not logically follow, imo, that we are to keep the entire law of Moses literally, strictly, and physically.

If God has given us a particular method, rubric, or algorithm to extract those parts of the law of Moses that we are to keep that way, I'm not aware of it.

What, then? In order to be consistent, I say that we don't keep any part of the law of Moses that way.

But there may be overlapping behaviors between the law of Moses and New Testament commands such as Love each other like I loved you.

Does that make sense?

 

[Leaf473]

Also, you say you avoid lust to avoid adultery, yet you reject that all such commandments need to be kept literally, strictly, physically. Why avoid lust if it's not to keep the commandment against physical adultery? You avoid answering such questions.

We avoid lust in order to keep the commandment to love one another as Jesus loved us.

I thought I had given that answer. Maybe I hadn't, or maybe it didn't click with you.