How do we explain Neanderthals?

[gzt]

I'm not saying one is because of the other.

 

[jckstraw72]

I'm not saying one is because of the other.

usually when people care enough to stick with a conversation for 30 pages and tell us there is evidence on both sides, they take the time to demonstrate some of this evidence, to make an argument in its favor. all you have is an assertion, and a description of the current state -- that there isn't 100% unanimity among people currently living. there are people out there who think very seriously about this issue, who are truly looking for answers and desiring to know what the Church has said. you're not offering anything.

evidence in favor of evolution within Orthodox Tradition has never been shown. arguments have been made, mostly by TF, but they had no basis in Tradition.

 

[Cappadocious]

usually when people care enough to stick with a conversation for 30 pages and tell us there is evidence on both sides, they take the time to demonstrate some of this evidence, to make an argument in its favor. all you have is an assertion, and a description of the current state -- that there isn't 100% unanimity among people currently living. there are people out there who think very seriously about this issue, who are truly looking for answers and desiring to know what the Church has said. you're not offering anything.

evidence in favor of evolution within Orthodox Tradition has never been shown. arguments have been made, mostly by TF, but they had no basis in Tradition.

Is your creationism thesis public yet?

 

[jckstraw72]

Is your creationism thesis public yet?

https://www.academia.edu/6326926/A_...r._Seraphim_Rose_and_the_Doctrine_of_Creation

 

[gzt]

I'm not sure what you're trying to make this into.

 

[jckstraw72]

I'm not sure what you're trying to make this into.

a meaningful discussion

 

[gzt]

Ah, see, I'm trying to close the discussion, since there are books written about this and we would do better to refer to them.

 

[jckstraw72]

you're welcome to bow out. but it's not your call to end the conversation for everyone.

 

[gzt]

Certainly, but there needs to be some counterpoint to the false idea that it is obviously true that an Orthodox Christian must believe in young earth creation, that people holding to the compatibility of the broad evolutionary narrative and Orthodox theology are betraying the tradition, that everybody involved in the theological establishment is a young earth creationist, etc.

 

[jckstraw72]

and as i said, if you care enough to assert that many times over, it's strange that you don't offer any evidence for your position. you're not offering a counterpoint, you're simply stating over and over again that somewhere out there there is a counterpoint.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I didn't actually see young earth as being necessary ... God created is necessary. But since there was obviously already the fall of Lucifer/Satan at some point before the narrative of the fall of mankind, it doesn't seem to preclude other things we are not told about fitting in somewhere prior to that. This rock we stand on existing as part of that untold narrative is possible, I think. I'm not any expert in Patristic thought on the matter, but what I recall doesn't seem to directly address that particular side issue one way or another?

 

[gzt]

I've given my own arguments, here and over the last several years, and pointed to resources that have much more.

 

[gzt]

I didn't actually see young earth as being necessary ... God created is necessary.

Good - we all agree on at least that much!

 

[Kristos]

Certainly, but there needs to be some counterpoint to the false idea that it is obviously true that an Orthodox Christian must believe in young earth creation, that people holding to the compatibility of the broad evolutionary narrative and Orthodox theology are betraying the tradition, that everybody involved in the theological establishment is a young earth creationist, etc.

Actually, I would say that YEC is incompatible with Orthodox Tradition.

 

[rusmeister]

Certainly, but there needs to be some counterpoint to the false idea that it is obviously true that an Orthodox Christian must believe in young earth creation, that people holding to the compatibility of the broad evolutionary narrative and Orthodox theology are betraying the tradition, that everybody involved in the theological establishment is a young earth creationist, etc.

We are not insisting primarily on a young earth. We ARE insisting on the special creation of man without death, and that is the main thing even the Christian evolutionist denies. That's the incompatibility.

 

[GregConstantine]

We are not insisting primarily on a young earth. We ARE insisting on the special creation of man without death, and that is the main thing even the Christian evolutionist denies. That's the incompatibility.

Could someone believe that death existed for the plants and animals, but not for man? Basically, the plants and animals died, but an exception was made for mankind (until the Fall, obviously). Do you think someone could hold to this position?

 

[ArmyMatt]

It certainly isn't a "solid argument", I'm not debating here. However, it remains to be seen whether we are in such a situation. The answer has not yet been revealed, there is certainly evidence for both sides, but it is as yet inconclusive.

the answer has been revealed, and there is no evidence from anything the Church says is authoritative that supports evolution. a PhD does not make one a Church authority.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Could someone believe that death existed for the plants and animals, but not for man? Basically, the plants and animals died, but an exception was made for mankind (until the Fall, obviously). Do you think someone could hold to this position?

Wisdom of Solomon states off the bat that God did not create anything to die, but rather all things to exist.

 

[GregConstantine]

I don't know how to reconcile the fossil record with that.

 

[GregConstantine]

I don't know how to reconcile the fossil record with that.

Plus, we need to be careful that we don't make the same mistakes Protestants make with quoting the Bible.