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How do we explain Neanderthals?

rusmeister

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These are interesting stories indeed, but I don't see how I am obligated to accept their conclusions. Could it be that they were taught evolution with a surrounding false atheistic and propagandized anthropology rather than being taught purely the science? Keep in mind these were communist times. I'm reminded of Fr Seraphim Rose's vehement rejection of St Francis of Assisi which seems to have little relation to the actual historical figure. It turns out he based it on St Ignatius's polemic against him, which required some historical context: there was in Russian noble circles in the late 19th century a very popular life of St Francis written earlier in the century circling around that was utter schlock, no redeeming qualities at all to it, utter nonsense, so St Ignatius, exercising his rightful pastoral duty, read the book and denounced it quite properly. However this had little to do with the actual man.
Hey, gz,
I think I have something to add, and I don't at all want it to seem combative. It's that there is no such thing as teaching "pure science". All teaching is always imbued with a worldview, that accompanies the teaching, and cannot be separated from it. If you teach a thing, you do so within the context of a worldview, a hermeneutic, all the assumptions behind what you teach. This means that a Christian can be taught, and believe, things springing from a materialistic, atheistic hermeneutic. He professes Christ, yet believes things that, unbeknownst to him, subtly contradict his faith. (The reverse is also true, but not relevant.)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'd rather take the truth with some open issues than a conveniently packaged falsehood.

EDIT: which isn't even conveniently packaged, since it leaves open some huge issues relating to our ability to observe the outside world.

It's only conveniently packaged falsehood if the Church has looked to anyone other than the saints concerning the Truth of what God did when He created us, and the Church doesn't.

And it doesn't make for any issues for what we observe in the world.
 
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~Anastasia~

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but it doesn't. the issue here is not what we can observe, but rather that which no one has ever observed.

no one rejects that which has been genuinely observed and that which has been observed in no way contradicts the Orthodox teaching on Genesis.

the issue here is the stories that scientists concoct, the boundless extrapolations they make into the past. we see minor changes going, sure. where we differ is that evolutionists therefore assume that such changes were necessarily happening in the past, compounding upon one another in the same "direction" endlessly.

everything that exists has its principle existing in the mind of God from before all eternity, it's definition, it's boundary. these logoi are unchanging because they are the energies of God. evolution works by assuming there are no such boundaries, or that they are so maleable and fluid so as to not really be boundaries, that nature is fluid, and everything can come from a common ancestor. this is has never been seen, and stands in direct contrast to Orthodox theology. this idea is not modern either, but was already rejected by the ancient Fathers.

I keep going back, myself, to my efforts to DEMONSTRATE and PROVE evolution, which I had the associated training, and full expectation of success, and the proper worldview, to be able to do. My repeated failures were rather eye-opening.

It is not easy to accept the fact that a great deal of one's education, years invested, many thousands of dollars, and the principles upon which one stands - are not what one thought they were. (I started to say "worthless" but they are not in fact worthless - just not what I thought them to be.)

But if one can be completely intellectually honest, begin and proceed only with completely logical foundations - even an academic will find the theory is nothing more than the best story concocted so far that explains what is observed and the conclusions one assumes to be true because of it (without appealing to a power behind creation). Some of us spend so many years (I became fascinated with evolution as a child) being spoonfed all of this that it becomes near-impossible to wipe the slate absolutely clean and come at it with fresh eyes and a logical mind, discarding EVERYTHING and beginning anew.

My motives were essentially evil, in that if I had been successful, my work could have served to further enslave the minds of many. But thankfully, the God I didn't even really believe existed at that time stepped in I think, and tripped me up, and used my intellectual efforts to show me the inability of doing what I proposed. (Or maybe it isn't even necessary to give God credit for this, because it would have happened the same way without Him, but I do like to think it was a step He used to bring me back to Him.)

Science isn't garbage, or worthless, or evil, or automatically wrong. It is simply a tool, quite useful in very many cases, and its methods a good process for thinking if one really adheres to it. But neither is it something enthroned that we ought to bow down to and accept without thinking and questioning - down to its very foundations. That is illogical and unscientific error itself.
 
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jckstraw72

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Science isn't garbage, or worthless, or evil, or automatically wrong. It is simply a tool, quite useful in very many cases, and its methods a good process for thinking if one really adheres to it. But neither is it something enthroned that we ought to bow down to and accept without thinking and questioning - down to its very foundations. That is illogical and unscientific error itself.

your post reminded me of what St. Silouan says:


St. Silouan the Athonite p. 90
Fr. Sophrony says of him: “For all his real humility and gentleness, the Staretz would say with unshakeable conviction and inner certainty that man cannot ‘of himself’ apprehend Divine matters, which are made known ‘only through the Holy Spirit’, and so the Holy Scriptures, too, ‘written by the Holy Spirit’ cannot be understood through scientific research which can only provide surface aspects and details, never the substance."
 
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jckstraw72

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I keep going back, myself, to my efforts to DEMONSTRATE and PROVE evolution, which I had the associated training, and full expectation of success, and the proper worldview, to be able to do. My repeated failures were rather eye-opening.

It is not easy to accept the fact that a great deal of one's education, years invested, many thousands of dollars, and the principles upon which one stands - are not what one thought they were. (I started to say "worthless" but they are not in fact worthless - just not what I thought them to be.)

But if one can be completely intellectually honest, begin and proceed only with completely logical foundations - even an academic will find the theory is nothing more than the best story concocted so far that explains what is observed and the conclusions one assumes to be true because of it (without appealing to a power behind creation). Some of us spend so many years (I became fascinated with evolution as a child) being spoonfed all of this that it becomes near-impossible to wipe the slate absolutely clean and come at it with fresh eyes and a logical mind, discarding EVERYTHING and beginning anew.

My motives were essentially evil, in that if I had been successful, my work could have served to further enslave the minds of many. But thankfully, the God I didn't even really believe existed at that time stepped in I think, and tripped me up, and used my intellectual efforts to show me the inability of doing what I proposed. (Or maybe it isn't even necessary to give God credit for this, because it would have happened the same way without Him, but I do like to think it was a step He used to bring me back to Him.)

Science isn't garbage, or worthless, or evil, or automatically wrong. It is simply a tool, quite useful in very many cases, and its methods a good process for thinking if one really adheres to it. But neither is it something enthroned that we ought to bow down to and accept without thinking and questioning - down to its very foundations. That is illogical and unscientific error itself.

how were you going about trying to demonstrate and prove evolution, and what problems did you encounter?
 
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gzt

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your post reminded me of what St. Silouan says:


St. Silouan the Athonite p. 90
Fr. Sophrony says of him: “For all his real humility and gentleness, the Staretz would say with unshakeable conviction and inner certainty that man cannot ‘of himself’ apprehend Divine matters, which are made known ‘only through the Holy Spirit’, and so the Holy Scriptures, too, ‘written by the Holy Spirit’ cannot be understood through scientific research which can only provide surface aspects and details, never the substance."
I don't disagree in the slightest.
 
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gzt

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in short: those who rejected evolution in the Soviet Union, including those who were willing to be tortured for rejecting it, were simply too dim to understand that it was being bound up with atheism, and had they been taught "purely the science" they surely would have accepted it.

of course, that doesn't fit the evidence at all. we don't see them rejecting evolution because its atheistic, but rather because of the problems it causes when you try to combine it with Orthodoxy.

Fr. Artemy did not reject evolution because it was atheistic, but precisely because of how it belittles man.

you're claiming, it seems, that if he were simply better learned in science he wouldn't have said what he did.

but what he said was not based on research or a lack thereof. It was what was given to him to know when standing in Church.

Those who stand against evolution always come back to that -- what God reveals and shows. evolutionists never come back to that. and yet they want to foist their theology onto Scripture.
I think you're making several assumptions here. We've reached the end of productive dialogue, so I'm pretty much done here. In conclusion, you know my conclusion: there are many eminent bishops, priests, theologians who hold to the compatibility of evolution and the Orthodox theology (including apparently my own rather wise and learned bishop), who hold that the tradition isn't so open and shut on this matter. I don't think they are necessarily discounting the experiences of the people you refer to, at least not int he way you think. So it is by no means an error to tell people that both views are legitimate Orthodox views, at least at this juncture in history.
 
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~Anastasia~

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how were you going about trying to demonstrate and prove evolution, and what problems did you encounter?

LOL I've started this post twice, and I can't decide how much to share without going into to much detail.

I will say that it was partially a backwards working process - I recognized that we were simply told conclusions based on observed evidence, and set out to offer a better education on the process. In part, I just assumed it would be possible because I had trusted my education up to that point, and I thought surely some intellectual giants somewhere along the way had just done the "heavy lifting" for us, and my desire was to make that more accessible to students (since it certainly wasn't broadly available, but I did assume it must exist), and also because I was always a sort of perfectionist.

One example - the theory that animal x developed from animal y and before that from animal z. There are many, many such claims. So, instead of just lining up a series of animals and telling students to memorize the history, I went in search of clear indications of development. True intermediate forms have never been found, but of course I expected to be able to explain and demonstrate with fossils we DO have. But I found that I couldn't do it. There were assumptions, certainly, and again, they are as good as any idea one might propose, but I failed to offer anything better than that (as indeed, no proponent of evolution has ever been able to do more than that). Not only is there no real evidence, but there is not even compelling evidence that necessarily leads in this direction, to the exclusion of competing possibilities, if one is honest.

One good method for assembling proofs is sometimes to attempt to prove the opposite, btw, even when you believe it to be false. This will show the inability of competing theories and highlight your strongest competing evidences, and can also help to sort of clear the mind of preconceptions so that one is able to build one's case without replying on presuppositions that one's opponents may not share. But applying this method to fossil evidence of advancing forms was like blowing down a house of cards.

Next I turned to functional changes, and that was even more of a disaster, and had to be abandoned early (intermediaries would be at a disadvantage compared to both prior and later forms, lacking adequate functionality, and the development of more complex structures and processes just begs the idea that something more intelligent and purposeful than mere chance was driving it.) This is something evolutionists often don't tend to address.

Looking at climate-driven changes (or other short-term environmental factors) is satisfactory in terms of evolution (or change) WITHIN a genera, but I still couldn't use it to begin to demonstrably account for earlier branching. And it is this more easily demonstrated change that has been a sort of launching-board for more far-reaching evolutionary claims.

There were other areas I looked at, but these were major areas.

And it might be a bit underhanded to mention honest errors that found their way into especially early inquiry, and in some cases outright deception. What I found personally disappointing about these is not that they happened, but that they were still deemed worthy to include as "evidence" in textbooks in some cases. But that did help a bit with pulling aside the curtain, as it were, to reveal the little man in charge of the great wizard. ;) Which is only to say it helped more for me to hold everyone at arm's length and "trust no one" and instead demand that ALL claims and foundations be proven before proceeding with them as a basis for further claims and interpretations.

I'm rambling, sorry. There were so many little instances and ups and downs in the process, and it was almost 20 years ago. I wasn't sure if you wanted details or generalities. :) But I hope that answers your question. :)
 
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prodromos

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In conclusion, you know my conclusion: there are many eminent bishops, priests, theologians who hold to the compatibility of evolution and the Orthodox theology (including apparently my own rather wise and learned bishop), who hold that the tradition isn't so open and shut on this matter.
I asked who these 'many' eminent bishops, priests and theologians were and you directed me to orthodoxwiki where I hardly found any. I did find a few references but they were mostly expounding compatibilist views between Orthodoxy and science, mot Orthodoxy and evolution, and there is a very real question as to whether evolution qualifies as science.
I ask again, who are these 'many' bishops, priests and theologians who teach that evolution (not science) is compatible with Orthodoxy?
 
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You hear this all the time...that there are these hordes of pro-evolution clergy. I have yet to meet one or read one. A few kind of tolerate the fact that some believe it, I think out of charity and a desire not to inhibit converts, but rarely do you hear Orthodox clergy espousing Darwin.

I asked who these 'many' eminent bishops, priests and theologians were and you directed me to orthodoxwiki where I hardly found any. I did find a few references but they were mostly expounding compatibilist views between Orthodoxy and science, mot Orthodoxy and evolution, and there is a very real question as to whether evolution qualifies as science.
I ask again, who are these 'many' bishops, priests and theologians who teach that evolution (not science) is compatible with Orthodoxy?
 
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rusmeister

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My chief contribution has been on the education of the scientists, on legitimate doubt that their education really IS education, on the philosophical, let alone theological vacuum in which they are educated, in which the educational materials, textbooks, ideas are formed in an atmosphere of unbelief which is buried in the hermeneutics of the materials even when used in a religious school, the vast majority of which are formed on the public model and teach fragmented subject education anyway.

Jckstraw's has been on the overwhelming evidence of the fathers and where they stood on the idea, which existed long before Darwin, concurred with by Army Matt.

Opposing this has been chiefly gzt's insistence on the reliability of modern education and science, that the ability to calculate and assume does produce reliable truth, and reference to a(n unclear) number of modern Orthodox thinkers who defend and promote evolution, and a denial of any consensus among the fathers (regardless of jck's evidence to the contrary), and TF's insistence on mysticism and our inability to know anything about Creation.

(Leaving Anastasia out of this; she is insisting we trust the consensus of Tradition, something I think all of us would say we do, the problem there seems to be agreeing about what that consensus is.)

That, at any rate, is what I get from all of this, in a fair attempt to express the core of what distinguishes the positions of the main participants.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I'd just as soon be left out of it. ;)

And it's true that I think consensus or weight of the Fathers, and how they express themselves, and why, is of great importance. I refuse to even pretend to weigh in on that though - with only a few years to study, I wouldn't dream of pretending to myself or to anyone else that I was knowledgeable enough to do more than trust someone else's word, which is why I don't bring it up.

My main question is always what has been brought up in this thread, and probably all similar threads here - which is how one can explain creation being "very good" and death entering the world because of the sin of Adam can be squared with evolution.

I've seen some interesting suggestions for trying to answer that, but when all is said and done, they are unsatisfying ways to consider the cosmos, history, God, and redemption.

Anyway, the best I can do is to try and underscore the lack of our obligation to unquestioningly and fully accept what really is nothing more than a best-guess process, and not demonstrable.

Especially when it flies in the face of what God has revealed.
 
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jckstraw72

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I'm rambling, sorry. There were so many little instances and ups and downs in the process, and it was almost 20 years ago. I wasn't sure if you wanted details or generalities. :) But I hope that answers your question. :)

well, as you know, i find this topic incredibly important and fascinating, so i was looking for as much as you're willing to share. thank you for your story!
 
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~Anastasia~

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well, as you know, i find this topic incredibly important and fascinating, so i was looking for as much as you're willing to share. thank you for your story!
If it helps, my first job (well not counting a couple of fast food gigs) was working for a highly respected professor of biology, who was on board of several societies and also curator for the science museum of the state. I had access to drawers and shelves and rows and TREMENDOUS variety of specimens, fossils, and so on. This is all not really within the eye of the public. So I KNEW that such vast collections existed, though not talked about. And perhaps that is why I had assumed that the material proof was out there in a way that could be better demonstrated that words and diagrams on textbook pages.

Discovering the actual dearth of anything useful, given all of those resources, was a bit of a shock.

That may give a bit more context for you.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Jckstraw's has been on the overwhelming evidence of the fathers and where they stood on the idea, which existed long before Darwin, concurred with by Army Matt.

I think the only thing I really added, is that our modern Fathers openly reject it, even our very educated ones. One would think if this had theological merit, the modern saints since Darwin would be more balanced in their acceptance of it.
 
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jckstraw72

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This is an interesting thought, but you're veering into polemics now.
it's just what we hear from evolutionists quite often, from both the science and religious point of view.

the scientists say we've never observed evolution cause we just need more time. they promise it'll happen.

the Christians say eventually saints will be on our side and the Church will rule in our favor, we just need more time.
 
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