How do we explain Neanderthals?

[~Anastasia~]

I am unaware of this (new to the faith). When and why did Christ descend into hell?

This is a necessary question - it connects to EVERYthing.

It's better if someone else explains it. It's too important for me to use for practice and risk introducing any imbalance in my clumsiness. I'll just give you this - my avatar image from this icon ...

(Btw, my name Anastasia - is after the Resurrection (Anastasis), which often uses this icon (probably better technically called the Harrowing of Hades).

 

[rusmeister]

I am unaware of this (new to the faith). When and why did Christ descend into hell?

http://www.orthodoxroad.com/christs-descent-into-hell-icon-explanation/

 

[jckstraw72]

Exactly my point. Who were the "other" unspecified people you allude to ? Where did they come from ?

well, i don't believe there were non-kin - i was just speaking from within your scenario to say that the scenario you've proposed does not solve the problem you've proposed.

Moreover, if there are other people, not descended from fallen Adam, why are they living outside of Paradise?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Btw, we generally say that He descended into Hades - the abode of the dead. When most people hear "hell" they think of a lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am unaware of this (new to the faith). When and why did Christ descend into hell?

after His death on the Cross. usually when we say hell at that point, we mean hades or sheol.

 

[~Anastasia~]

after His death on the Cross. usually when we say hell at that point, we mean hades or sheol.

I just realized this may be an important point to keep in mind when discussing with some.

There is a teaching (I think it came out of WoF or at least they were promoting it) that Christ went to hell (as in the lake of fire, populated with and administered by demons) in order to be tortured for three days so that He could finish the work of "paying for our sins".

We don't want folks to think THAT is what we mean when we talk to them.

Just an aside comment - Matt's comment reminded me of that belief that was being widely disseminated by televangelists and popular books not that long ago.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Except for the fact that atheist modern scientists are more illumined than the saints and we should trust them. Why listen to guys like St. John Chrysostom or St. Isaac the Syrian or St. John Damascene, etc. when you can listen to guys like Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku!? St. Mark of Ephesus never took soil samples or analyzed rock strata so I don't need to listen to him. I don't go to Genesis to learn about the Earth, I seek out Al Gore.

St. Isaac the Syrian specifically says that saints see visions of the creation of the world.

 

[stephen583]

I've always found the story of Noah and the flood interesting from this same perspective. Why after the flood did Noah who had done everything God had instructed and was vindicated before God, "plant a vineyard and become a drunk", (Genesis 9:20-21) ?

Are we supposed to surmise this great man of faith simply suffered from PTSD ? Was the flood event too much for Noah to cope with ? It doesn't sound that way in the Biblical account, or does it ?

What about when Noah sent a dove out to search for dry land, and it returned that evening with a fresh olive leaf plucked off a tree, (Genesis 8:11) ?! Olive trees don't grow underneath seawater do they ? Eventually Noah would realize the flood had only been a regional event, and out there somewhere, the descendants of the people CAIN had found sanctuary with had survived the flood as well.

So now we know why Noah planted a vineyard and became a drunk after the flood.

 

[stephen583]

well, i don't believe there were non-kin

There had to be non-Adamic people . Otherwise, there would have been no place for Cain to find sanctuary. No descendant of Adam could have offered Cain sanctuary, because of the curse God had placed on him. It's simple logic.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is a teaching (I think it came out of WoF or at least they were promoting it) that Christ went to hell (as in the lake of fire, populated with and administered by demons) in order to be tortured for three days so that He could finish the work of "paying for our sins".

right, we must be clear that Christ was in hades destroying death's hold on humanity

 

[ArmyMatt]

There had to be non-Adamic people . Otherwise, there would have been no place for Cain to find sanctuary. No descendant of Adam could have offered Cain sanctuary, because of the curse God had placed on him. It's simple logic.

well, Genesis 4 doesn't actually say this. it does not say Cain sought sanctuary from anyone, merely that he took a wife and built a city. and it does not say that no descendant would offer him sanctuary as a part of the curse. so it doesn't actually prove there were non-Adamic people.

 

[YCGP]

right, we must be clear that Christ was in hades destroying death's hold on humanity

Hades is Greek right? Do any other denominations say that Christ was fighting in Hades?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've always found the story of Noah and the flood interesting from this same perspective. Why after the flood did Noah who had done everything God had instructed and was vindicated before God, "plant a vineyard and become a drunk", (Genesis 9:20-21) ?

Are we supposed to surmise this great man of faith simply suffered from PTSD ? Was the flood event too much for Noah to cope with ? It doesn't sound that way in the Biblical account, or does it ?

What about when Noah sent a dove out to search for dry land, and it returned that evening with a fresh olive leaf plucked off a tree, (Genesis 8:11) ?! Olive trees don't grow underneath seawater do they ? Eventually Noah would realize the flood had only been a regional event, and out there somewhere, the descendants of the people CAIN had found sanctuary with had survived the flood as well.

So now we know why Noah planted a vineyard and became a drunk after the flood.

No, trees don't grow underwater. But such a flood would take time to subside. Leaves on trees would be accessible before dry land.

And as far as Noah getting drunk, it's not like it could have happened right after the flood. He planted a vineyard. Which took time to grow and eventually produce. Then wine takes time to ferment. Nearly every servant of God who was obedient in doing great things in the plan of God, also failed in some big way. Noah is simply no exception. I'm not sure if you are joking or serious, but using the fact that Noah got drunk as a reason to extrapolate other people (particularly if such extrapolation disagrees with the Church fathers and revelations to the Saints) is NOT how we do theology.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hades is Greek right? Do any other denominations say that Christ was fighting in Hades?

I don't think we should say that Christ was fighting. It was through the very fact of His death, being that He is God, that death was destroyed.

"Death swallowed a man, and encountered God."

I wish I could remember where I saw it. Someone described it like a balloon. A balloon is able to hold a certain amount of air, but if you overfill it, it bursts. They used the balloon as an analogy for death. Death was able to contain mortal men as a matter of course, but Christ, being God, and the source of life itself ...

So in dying, He destroyed death. It is impossible that death should contain the Source of Life.

 

[YCGP]

No, trees don't grow underwater. But such a flood would take time to subside. Leaves on trees would be accessible before dry land.

And as far as Noah getting drunk, it's not like it could have happened right after the flood. He planted a vineyard. Which took time to grow and eventually produce. Then wine takes time to ferment. Nearly every servant of God who was obedient in doing great things in the plan of God, also failed in some big way. Noah is simply no exception. I'm not sure if you are joking or serious, but using the fact that Noah got drunk as a reason to extrapolate other people (particularly if such extrapolation disagrees with the Church fathers and revelations to the Saints) is NOT how we do theology.

And Noah failed by becoming a drunk?

 

[YCGP]

I don't think we should say that Christ was fighting. It was through the very fact of His death, being that He is God, that death was destroyed.

"Death swallowed a man, and encountered God."

I wish I could remember where I saw it. Someone described it like a balloon. A balloon is able to hold a certain amount of air, but if you overfill it, it bursts. They used the balloon as an analogy for death. Death was able to contain mortal men as a matter of course, but Christ, being God, and the source of life itself ...

So in dying, He destroyed death. It is impossible that death should contain the Source of Life.

I see. Boy, there's an answer for everything ha!

A lot of this kind of stuff I just choose to accept/believe.

 

[stephen583]

well, Genesis 4 doesn't actually say this. it does not say Cain sought sanctuary from anyone, merely that he took a wife and built a city. and it does not say that no descendant would offer him sanctuary as a part of the curse. so it doesn't actually prove there were non-Adamic people.

Of course it does. Genesis 4:16 says Cain went to the Land of Nod, settled there and got a wife. Later in Genesis it says he built cities.

There's no way any descendants of Adam could have offered Cain refuge, because of the curse of God. Therefore, the people of Nod could not have been Adamic people. It's really not any more complicated than that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And Noah failed by becoming a drunk?

I'm not sure if you meant to say he became A drunk, or he became drunk.

It was not a good thing to do. What it shows is that he is human, like the rest of us. And many of us make BIG mistakes, as do many characters from Scripture. That's the main point to that story, IMO.

But the reason I replied is that - there is no way to infer whether the flood was worldwide or regional, whether all flesh died or just some - based on the fact that Noah got drunk. That's a very bad way to do theology.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Of course it does. Genesis 4:16 says Cain went to the Land of Nod, settled there and got a wife. Later in Genesis it says he built cities.

There's no way any descendants of Adam could have offered Cain refuge, because of the curse of God. Therefore, the people of Nod could not have been Adamic people. It's really not any more complicated than that.

Stephen .... you may want to take this to St. Justin Martyr's forum - debate on Orthodox Christian. CF rules forbid visitors to a congregational forum arguing, teaching, or debating against members of the area's faith group.

We don't mind questions or debate, but this isn't the place for it, please. Thank you for understanding.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I see. Boy, there's an answer for everything ha!

A lot of this kind of stuff I just choose to accept/believe.

Give it time and keep studying. There ARE lots of answers, and you will be amazed to see how they all fit together and the picture they create.