How do we define "man" and "woman"

com7fy8 · Apr 23, 2016

Chany said:
Does a woman cease to be a woman when she stops producing eggs? Is an elderly post-menopause person no longer gendered, or they still a "she"?

Hi, Chany I agree with whoever understands that a woman is still a woman after she stops producing eggs. Menopause does not change her gender or remove it. And my definition did not mean it does. My definition is not meant to get into every detail and in and out of it.

I'm saying, that . . . in general . . . a male human is a person who is born with a set of organs which are for producing sperm and getting a woman pregnant, and the person is a male for the rest of one's life. And, likewise, a human female is a person who is born with organs for producing eggs and for carrying a child, and she is female for the rest of her life. The gender is decided, though, not by if the organs ever worked or still work, but which ones a person has.

And a person's gender is a very limited part of a person's identity . . . not worth so much concern and attention > considering Galatians 3:28.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

com7fy8 said:
I'm saying, that . . . in general . . . a male human is a person who is born with a set of organs which are for producing sperm and getting a woman pregnant, and the person is a male for the rest of one's life.

So... What about intersex people?

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
This one is targeted at those who think there is no meaningful distinction between sex, gender identity, and gender expression (á la this convenient graphic).

What characteristic determines whether someone is a man or a woman?

From Kindergarten Cop:
Joseph: [to Phoebe] Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.

Phoebe: [to Kimble] Well, I see you've covered the basics.

com7fy8 · Apr 23, 2016

@The Cadet "intersex" > I need to look this up Please excuse me, for a moment.

If one gender of the organs is clearly more developed, I might go with that being the gender, even if the person's more developed organs will never be functional.

However, if it is evident that neither organs will ever develop much, then I guess the person is neither gender. But I would want to call the person something personal, like "he" or "she" . . . certainly not "it"!! I think one's family and the individual can work out the label choice, without needing my opinion

CaDan · Apr 23, 2016

These are very difficult questions.

I don't find the counting chromosomes or "look in the pants" method satisfactory; however, the "I am what I am" claiming method is also unsatisfactory.

I think Butler's analysis that gender is something one does rather than something one is provides some guidance, but I'm not entirely pleased with it, either.

These are very difficult questions.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

PapaZoom said:
Joseph: [to Phoebe] Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.

Phoebe: [to Kimble] Well, I see you've covered the basics.

The very, very basics. Ever read the book "Middlesex"?

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
The very, very basics. Ever read the book "Middlesex"?

No but I'd be willing to. I'm speaking generally when I say boys have a penis and girls a vagina. The history of man is the history of this fact.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

CaDan said:
These are very difficult questions.

Honestly, this, more than anything, is the point of this thread. A lot of people think these are trivial, simple concerns. That "male" and "female" are simple and straightforward things, easily determined by what's in your pants when you're born, or whether you have a Y chromosome. At this point, I'm fairly certain that that isn't the case.

CaDan · Apr 23, 2016

PapaZoom said:
No but I'd be willing to. I'm speaking generally when I say boys have a penis and girls a vagina. The history of man is the history of this fact.

As a general rule, that works fine. But there are strange edge cases where it does not seem to work well. Sort of like how Newtonian mechanics works for lots of things, but completely falls apart when dealing with the very small and the very fast.

Edge cases are important because they show where the general theory breaks down, and by doing so, show the weakness of the general theory.

CaDan · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
Honestly, this, more than anything, is the point of this thread. A lot of people think these are trivial, simple concerns. That "male" and "female" are simple and straightforward things, easily determined by what's in your pants when you're born, or whether you have a Y chromosome. At this point, I'm fairly certain that that isn't the case.

take away my liberal card, But, I think it is also more complex than the "other side" saying one can be whatever one says they are. This is a common and incorrect reading of Butler's work. If gender is performance, then it is more than just claiming a gender. It is doing a gender.

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

CaDan said:
As a general rule, that works fine. But there are strange edge cases where it does not seem to work well. Sort of like how Newtonian mechanics works for lots of things, but completely falls apart when dealing with the very small and the very fast.

Edge cases are important because they show where the general theory breaks down, and by doing so, show the weakness of the general theory.

Yes, I agree. And even if I come across as a black and white thinker on this, I am actually very cautious because there are grey areas to consider.

Chany · Apr 23, 2016

com7fy8 said:
Hi, Chany I agree with whoever understands that a woman is still a woman after she stops producing eggs. Menopause does not change her gender or remove it. And my definition did not mean it does. My definition is not meant to get into every detail and in and out of it.

I'm saying, that . . . in general . . . a male human is a person who is born with a set of organs which are for producing sperm and getting a woman pregnant, and the person is a male for the rest of one's life. And, likewise, a human female is a person who is born with organs for producing eggs and for carrying a child, and she is female for the rest of her life. The gender is decided, though, not by if the organs ever worked or still work, but which ones a person has.

And a person's gender is a very limited part of a person's identity . . . not worth so much concern and attention > considering Galatians 3:28.

If a definition cannot ultimately be used to explain all cases, then said definition is ultimately useless. The second you use the word "generally", you already illustrated the point I was making. The labels "male" and "female" are vague concepts we put onto things that, when we actually inspect them, fall apart. How do you handle transgender people? Intersex? People who do not identify with their gender with the matching organs?

Also, the definition you give completely ignores the non-biological side of gender. The phrase "a person's gender does not seem to matter much for a person's self-identity" seems moot when we refer to each in gendered pronouns, are expected to behave in certain ways based on gender, treated as infants in certain ways based on gender, given certain names related to gender, and, for some people, desire to identified as the opposite gender. Think about how we treat the two genders differently and think about how this affects one self idenitity. For example, there is a thread talking about whether women should be working. There are discussions about whether women are supposed to be pastors or not. Gender runs much deeper than sexual organs.

Chesterton · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
Honestly, this, more than anything, is the point of this thread. A lot of people think these are trivial, simple concerns.

They are trivial concerns. Even apart from AIS, the percentage of people who merely "feel" trans are a tiny fraction of the population. Unless you are one, or are a scientist studying it, or a politician wanting to be a social justice hero, it's trivial. Cancer is a concern.

CaDan said:
take away my liberal card, But, I think it is also more complex than the "other side" saying one can be whatever one says they are. This is a common and incorrect reading of Butler's work. If gender is performance, then it is more than just claiming a gender. It is doing a gender.

"Doing a gender"? That should be enough to keep your liberal card for a while. How you been?

CaDan · Apr 23, 2016

Chesterton said:
"Doing a gender"? That should be enough to keep your liberal card for a while.

One would think . . . but no. Gender and sex are much stranger and more complicated than either "side" seems willing to admit. I actually took the time to read Butler (and what a horrible writer she is, even though quite smart) and Harroway and Halberstam and a bunch of other feminist and queer theorists. Their thought on these issues is so much more complex and subtle than the kids on Tumblr who have "all the feels!" imagine.

Chesterton said:
How you been?

I'm OK. We moved a year ago, which was an adventure after living in the same place for twenty-odd years. Got my wife through breast cancer last summer (she's fine).

I just got a hankerin' to come kick the tires at CF this morning, so I've been roaming the forums.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

Chesterton said:
They are trivial concerns. Even apart from AIS, the percentage of people who merely "feel" trans are a tiny fraction of the population.

Eastern Orthodox make up 0.25% of the population. Just sayin'.

Chesterton · Apr 23, 2016

CaDan said:
I'm OK. We moved a year ago, which was an adventure after living in the same place for twenty-odd years. Got my wife through breast cancer last summer (she's fine).

The Cadet said:
Eastern Orthodox make up 0.25% of the population. Just sayin'.

We're perfectly fine with using Catholic bathrooms.

jayem · Apr 24, 2016

The Cadet said:
What about the women who were born women, spent their whole lives as women, but nonetheless have a Y chromosome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

Specifically women with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Their genetics says "male", but you could never tell by looking at them. In fact, many don't find out until they go for fertility treatments. Are they not women?

The diagnosis is usually made in early adolescence when they don't menstruate.

durangodawood · Apr 24, 2016

Chesterton said:
We're perfectly fine with using Catholic bathrooms.

Im sure you are.
But are the Catholics fine with it?

Locutus · Apr 26, 2016

The Cadet said:
What about the women who were born women, spent their whole lives as women, but nonetheless have a Y chromosome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

Specifically women with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Their genetics says "male", but you could never tell by looking at them. In fact, many don't find out until they go for fertility treatments. Are they not women?

Rare. Probably not sufficient in number to be part of this debate.

Locutus · Apr 26, 2016

Sultan Of Swing said:
But what if someone self-identifies as a dog?

Then he or she is insane, and requires psychiatric care.

How do we define "man" and "woman"

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