How do the Orthodox view Augustine?

[ArmyMatt]

1) Was Augustine ever challenged by church leaders during his lifetime? It seems other controversial teachers, such as Origen, did receive some criticism for unorthodox ideas during their lifetime.

yes, St Vincent of Lerins was one I believe.

2) What about the Athanasian Creed? Much is made of the Nicene Creed and the filioque, but one passage of the Athanasian Creed could be seen as supportive of it. At least in the west, 3 creeds are used - the Nicene, Apostle's, and Athanasian (and, yes, I realize those names are likely later attributions). What do the Orthodox think of these other creeds?

we don’t use them, but there’s not anything wrong per se, depending on one’s understanding.

 

[J_B_]

we don’t use them, but there’s not anything wrong per se, depending on one’s understanding.

Thanks.

yes, St Vincent of Lerins was one I believe.

Does the Orthodox church not follow the Second Council of Orange in dismissing his semipelegianism as heresy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does the Orthodox church not follow the Second Council of Orange in dismissing his semipelegianism as heresy?

we absolutely disagree with semipelegianism, we would disagree that many who were accused of that error actually were semipelegian.

but even then, saints can hold heretical views and still be saints.

 

[J_B_]

we absolutely disagree with semipelegianism ...

I'm glad to hear that.

... we would disagree that many who were accused of that error actually were semipelegian.

Fair enough. Is that the case with St. Vincent?

... but even then, saints can hold heretical views and still be saints.

I agree, and I never meant to imply otherwise. It can be difficult to deliver a clear message that rejects someone's views without appearing to question their faith. I don't know St. Vincent or his writings very well; I'm here to learn.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fair enough. Is that the case with St. Vincent?

not from what I have read. Orthodoxy reads the saints writings through the lens of the Church, we don’t just look at saints in isolation. that said, certain saints are not as clear on their language, which is why the Church as a whole is how we read them.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I have 2 questions about Orthodox views based on comments made in this thread:
1) Was Augustine ever challenged by church leaders during his lifetime? It seems other controversial teachers, such as Origen, did receive some criticism for unorthodox ideas during their lifetime.

It also seems the place of Augustine in western Christendom, at least his place in my own Confessional Lutheran church, is sometimes misunderstood. Though highly regarded and influential, he is not viewed as infallible (nor is Luther for that matter). I've heard Lutheran pastors criticize Augustine (and Luther) about some of their statements.

2) What about the Athanasian Creed? Much is made of the Nicene Creed and the filioque, but one passage of the Athanasian Creed could be seen as supportive of it. At least in the west, 3 creeds are used - the Nicene, Apostle's, and Athanasian (and, yes, I realize those names are likely later attributions). What do the Orthodox think of these other creeds?

I will try to answer your questions.

In general, blessed Augustine never challenged either during his life or now. But many saints have a small number of errors in reasoning. St. Augustine may have them, too. I do not know.

For example, it happened that the saint had his own opinion, which he shared with several disciples during his lifetime. But it was of little practical importance. No one used it anywhere. Therefore, there were no complaints. But already after the death of the saint, the devil found heretics who began to spread such erroneous thoughts of the saint en masse, creating a whole new teaching out of them. This teaching led to turmoil in the church. The church was meeting and pondering whether this contradicts the Gospel. If there was a contradiction, then a decision was made to condemn such an opinion or teaching, despite the authority of the saint.

Luther and the Lutherans were never Orthodox. Luther originally belonged to the Roman Catholic (Latin) Church. This church was the first to place the authority of its bishop (the Pope) above the authority of the Ecumenical Councils. In this way, over time, more and more decisions were made that contradicted the decisions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This led to the gradual loss of grace and discredit of the church. Protestantism was a reaction to this grief. But Luther, instead of returning to the Orthodox teaching approved by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, came up with a new teaching: everyone can read the Bible and faithfully interpret it as he pleases. As a result, over the centuries, the Bible itself has gradually lost its authority as the word of God among Protestants, because everyone interprets it as it is convenient for them. As a result, we now see LGBT people even among Protestant church ministers. 100 years ago, no one could have imagined such a thing: how it is possible to interpret the Bible in such a way. But by rejecting the decision of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, some denominations distorted the content of the Bible.

As for the symbols of faith, they were also corrected at the Seven Ecumenical Councils, not because something new appeared in the faith, but because the devil and heretics were very inventive. First there was the Arian heresy, which rejected the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God. That is why the first Creed emphasized this. Then new false teachings, new heresies appeared and the Creed answered other questions.

 

[J_B_]

not from what I have read. Orthodoxy reads the saints writings through the lens of the Church, we don’t just look at saints in isolation. that said, certain saints are not as clear on their language, which is why the Church as a whole is how we read them.

Thanks.

 

[J_B_]

I will try to answer your questions.

In general, blessed Augustine never challenged either during his life or now. But many saints have a small number of errors in reasoning. St. Augustine may have them, too. I do not know.

For example, it happened that the saint had his own opinion, which he shared with several disciples during his lifetime. But it was of little practical importance. No one used it anywhere. Therefore, there were no complaints. But already after the death of the saint, the devil found heretics who began to spread such erroneous thoughts of the saint en masse, creating a whole new teaching out of them. This teaching led to turmoil in the church. The church was meeting and pondering whether this contradicts the Gospel. If there was a contradiction, then a decision was made to condemn such an opinion or teaching, despite the authority of the saint.

Luther and the Lutherans were never Orthodox. Luther originally belonged to the Roman Catholic (Latin) Church. This church was the first to place the authority of its bishop (the Pope) above the authority of the Ecumenical Councils. In this way, over time, more and more decisions were made that contradicted the decisions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. This led to the gradual loss of grace and discredit of the church. Protestantism was a reaction to this grief. But Luther, instead of returning to the Orthodox teaching approved by the Seven Ecumenical Councils, came up with a new teaching: everyone can read the Bible and faithfully interpret it as he pleases. As a result, over the centuries, the Bible itself has gradually lost its authority as the word of God among Protestants, because everyone interprets it as it is convenient for them. As a result, we now see LGBT people even among Protestant church ministers. 100 years ago, no one could have imagined such a thing: how it is possible to interpret the Bible in such a way. But by rejecting the decision of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, some denominations distorted the content of the Bible.

As for the symbols of faith, they were also corrected at the Seven Ecumenical Councils, not because something new appeared in the faith, but because the devil and heretics were very inventive. First there was the Arian heresy, which rejected the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God. That is why the first Creed emphasized this. Then new false teachings, new heresies appeared and the Creed answered other questions.

Thanks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks.

no problem

 

[Lukaris]

I have 2 questions about Orthodox views based on comments made in this thread:
1) Was Augustine ever challenged by church leaders during his lifetime? It seems other controversial teachers, such as Origen, did receive some criticism for unorthodox ideas during their lifetime.

It also seems the place of Augustine in western Christendom, at least his place in my own Confessional Lutheran church, is sometimes misunderstood. Though highly regarded and influential, he is not viewed as infallible (nor is Luther for that matter). I've heard Lutheran pastors criticize Augustine (and Luther) about some of their statements.

2) What about the Athanasian Creed? Much is made of the Nicene Creed and the filioque, but one passage of the Athanasian Creed could be seen as supportive of it. At least in the west, 3 creeds are used - the Nicene, Apostle's, and Athanasian (and, yes, I realize those names are likely later attributions). What do the Orthodox think of these other creeds?

Re the creeds, I believe the Apostles Creed is viewed positively if not referred to much. As far as the Athanasian creed, it is centuries after St. Athansias lived and was used to support the filioque so that created some skepticism. Although, I believe the rest of the Athanasian creed is considered sound & can be referred to with proper adaptation.

THE ATHANASIAN CREED. From the Russian Orthodox Psalter. Mystery. Oct 29/ Nov 11 2009 23rd Wednesday after Pentecost

www.orthodox.net

Later add on:

When originally scrolling through I didn’t see the answers to your post. I didn’t mean to add any unnecessary details.