How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yedida Do you remember the Sabbath? How do you remember it? How do you keep it holy?

Only by the grace of God is one able to keep the sabbath Holy.

I would think it is more by obedience.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7402803-23/#post52972369
Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?


.

 

[Avodat]

I would think it is more by obedience.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7402803-23/#post52972369
Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?


.

I think that could be better worded - no, it is not a sin to honour the Sabbath!!!!!!


(The context depends where you place the emphasis)

 

[Yusuphhai]

Interesting that you mention Noahides. I was speaking to a rabbi friend yesterday who teaches Noahides online. He said there is a growing
Noahide movement in China. Have you found that to be true?

Yes it is true, The J Group has more than 8500 members, although many of them are only interested in Judaism or Noahides. I think many members know more knowlege about Judaism than I.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Sukkah from the picture I pasted was not built by me or in China, I just like it and use this symbol to celebrate Sukkot. Sorry made you misunderstood. If later someone guides me maybe I will have opportunity to build one.

Wouldn't be surprised if you're able to make one just as good or beautiful from a different aspect. I remember we did one at my fellowship and had a fellowship meal outside with the covering above us having beautiful fabric/linen and designs.....and it was marvelous Add to that the food and the liturgy/prayers and smiles and it was a wild time in Messiah

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A web group of Torah Learning Christian/ Relationship between Christianity & Judaism (abbr. TCG ) in China was originally built by mainly Chinese Judaism believers (Noah Movement). TCG is administered by both C&J. I think Chinese Judaism is more tolerant to the different religions than Chinese Christianity. According to the requirement of dialogue between different religions by their J group ,TCG also plans to be open to other religions on the foundation which protects C&J. TCG prohibits to condemn Judaism, Messianism, and Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant Christianity “Heresy”. TCG welcome J&C, Monotheism &non-Monotheism, religion& non-religion to dialog or learn Torah. In China the knowledge about Torah has not been widely spread. What I have known about Torah is also very limited.

That's wonderful, Bruh Glad that there movements/groups over where you're at which give room for others to operate easier than in other places...

 

[DennisTate]

Yes it is true, The J Group has more than 8500 members, although many of them are only interested in Judaism or Noahides. I think many members know more knowlege about Judaism than I.

I believe that the time is coming when these Noahides and Messianic Jews and Orthodox Chinese Jews will play a critical role in the stabilization of the climate of China:



Zechariah 14 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Zechariah 14:16 ¶

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[DennisTate]

How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

I met the cases somewhere in China where MJ was thought as a Heresy at least 5 times. Even the names of Rock Jean(a Taiwanese M) and me(Yosef Hai) were published(in Chinese) on web to criticize MJ. Maybe the writer a leader of church thinks me as a represent of MJ Beijing even China.

So I want to know can they represent the main streams of Christianity? How many People who call themselves “Christian” all over the world do think MJ is a heresy ? the concrete details, what is the about centigrade?
Really some Christianity styles in China(especially the teachers) want to destroy MJ theory、practice and groups in spirit, I don’t know whether their teachings are from their western theological background, or their own local theological background, or both(Their English level is better than mine). I think the teachers love their authority most, so they think their judgments are always right and can not be queried. I don’t want to respond to them and their followers.

A follower of the teachers dare set the inquisition by their authority system in the biggest Chinese Judaism forum and more forums.

I appreciate your care here.

My old Messianic Gentile church, The Worldwide Church of God, during the 1960's taught that in each church there are probably a certain percentage of the people there who have and are led by the Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh.

By the 1980's the WWCG was teaching that they were the one and only true church and even the most obviously gifted teachers from non Messianic groups did not even have the Holy Spirit and would not be in the first resurrection to meet our Messiah in the air.


Mark 9:38 ¶

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

In the case of my old church.....the proverb that knowledge puffs up.....certainly became true......We became so critical of anybody who wasn't exactly like us that rather naturally the time came when the same manner in which we judged others.....became the way that they judged us as well.

What was especially strange though was that our most vehement criticism was reserved for groups who were 95% like us....but differed in what could be thought of as rather debatable points of doctrine!

I am certain that the scattering that occurred to my old church had much to do with our pride and contempt for people who were serving God to the best of their ability with what they knew to do!


Mark 3:29

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

My old group was so critical of everybody else....so much of the time....that even people who were interested in learning more about the Sabbaths and Holy Days didn't want to become so angry and paranoid as we had became.... Satan does an amazing job of getting Gods' own people into this type of attitude????!!!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And the church I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.

Have a blessed Sukkot!

Yusuph Hai

Praise the Lord that you have something you can definately work with in regards to people respecting you for who you are and others for what they're about. Seeing that you support an Orient Abrahamic faith, there are others who've gone through similar as you---The Chinese Jews of KaiFeng being one example that comes to mind (as discussed elsewhere more in-depth as seen in #303 ).

 

[DennisTate]

Praise the Lord that you have something you can definately work with in regards to people respecting you for who you are and others for what they're about. Seeing that you support an Orient Abrahamic faith, there are others who've gone through similar as you---The Chinese Jews of KaiFeng being one example that comes to mind (as discussed elsewhere more in-depth as seen in #303 ).

YES.....what Yusuphhai is experiencing is amazing and rare indeed......I remember reading "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. He stated that in the Gulag......whether one is Protestant or Catholic or Jehovah Witness or Mormon or whatever.....is irrelevant..............persecuted Christians tend to be able to love each other and connect with each other and give each other some respect for their courage that is forged in fire......that non-persecuted Christians and Messianic Jews seem to have a terrible time understanding how to do??????????

Originally Posted by Yusuphhai
And the church I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.

Have a blessed Sukkot!

Yusuph Hai

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thead has had a clean up and may need more for off topic posts and posts against the Trinity.

If your post is missing, it is because it was in violation of the rules or responding to one that was and was removed.

Keep on topic folks.

 

[yonah_mishael]

... unless Paul was lying ...

ἀλλ᾽ ὑπάρχων πανοῦργος δόλῳ ὑμᾶς ἔλαβον ...

I don’t know how I missed your quote from 2 Corinthians here, but I was just looking back over this thread and noticed this. Very cute. He was being playful there, but I can see why you might use it as an accusation. As a whole, though, I find Paul refreshingly honest in his letters.

 

[ananda]

I don’t know how I missed your quote from 2 Corinthians here, but I was just looking back over this thread and noticed this. Very cute. He was being playful there, but I can see why you might use it as an accusation. As a whole, though, I find Paul refreshingly honest in his letters.

What tells you that he was being "playful" instead of being honest, in what I quoted?

 

[yonah_mishael]

What tells you that he was being "playful" instead of being honest, in what I quoted?

He is sarcastic throughout the section.

12:11 – I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.​

I don’t think he was really calling them “super-apostles” (οἱ ὑπερλίαν ἀπόστολο&#953, and I don’t really think that he thought was nothing in comparison with them. He was exaggerating to make a point.

12:13 – How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!​

He didn’t really think that it was wrong of him not to be a burden to them. He was being sarcastic to state that he went out of his way to be only good to them, while they treated him as if he had been a burden or that he was worse that those preachers who had indeed made a living off of the ministry.

12:16-18 – Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent you? I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not act in the same spirit and follow the same course?​

This is the verse that you quoted, and directly after it he states that it isn’t the case – that he didn’t exploit them when he sent Titus and other men to visit the church. His point was exactly the opposite of what you’re implying – that he did not take advantage of them, that he did not exploit them or put any burdens on them. He may even have been quoting an accusation that his opponents laid on him: that he had won them over by craftiness and trickery. His intention, then, would be to say that this was ridiculous and that he proved by his actions that such was not the case – and that he expended his ministry among them out of love (as indicated in verse 15).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How do you understand “Christian” to mean “Christ-bearer”? Do you have a reason for taking it that way? The –ian suffix nomrally refers to a person who belongs to something, whether a city (“Corinth” → “Corinthian”; “Thessaly” → “Thessalonian&#8221 or a group of followers.
A “Christian” is one who “belongs to, is associated with, or follows Christ.” It is not one who “bears” Christ. Such a designation would be Χριστόφορος (Christophoros, “Christ-bearer&#8221 in Greek. This designation eventually became the name “Christopher,” which really does mean “Christ-bearer.” Similarly, we have the name Θεόφορος (Theophoros, “God-bearer&#8221 coming to us from antiquity.

Here is a list of other words that end in –an or –ian.

That is what it appears to mean to me also.
You seem to have a good grasp of the Greek, perhaps better than most Greeks do.

The greek word #5548 shows it to be consecrated to an office or religious service by the annointed of oil and/or the Holy Spirit.

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Acts 26:28 And Agrippa said unto Paul, "In a little thou dost persuade me to become a Christian/cristianon <5546>!"

Textus Rec.) Acts 26:28 o de agrippaV proV ton paulon efh en oligw me peiqeiV cristianon genesqai

1 Peter 4:16 and if as a Christian/cristianoV <5546>, let him not be ashamed; and let him glorify God in this respect;

Textus Rec.) 1 Peter 4:16 ei de wV cristianoV mh aiscunesqw doxazetw de ton qeon en tw merei toutw
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed


5545. chrisma khris'-mah from 5548; an unguent or smearing, i.e. (figuratively) the special endowment ("chrism") of the Holy Spirit:--anointing, unction.
5548. chrio khree'-o probably akin to 5530 through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:--anoint.

 

[ananda]

He is sarcastic throughout the section.

12:11 – I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.​

I don’t think he was really calling them “super-apostles” (&#959;&#7985; &#8017;&#960;&#949;&#961;&#955;&#943;&#945;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#972;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#953, and I don’t really think that he thought was nothing in comparison with them. He was exaggerating to make a point.

But aren't you speculating as to his intentions, here? There's nothing to stop me from interpreting this verse in a straightforward manner either. Was he exaggerating in the next verse (12) about his qualifications?

12:13 – How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong! ... He didn’t really think that it was wrong of him not to be a burden to them. He was being sarcastic to state that he went out of his way to be only good to them, while they treated him as if he had been a burden or that he was worse that those preachers who had indeed made a living off of the ministry.

12:16-18 – Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent you? I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not act in the same spirit and follow the same course?​

This is the verse that you quoted, and directly after it he states that it isn’t the case – that he didn’t exploit them when he sent Titus and other men to visit the church. His point was exactly the opposite of what you’re implying – that he did not take advantage of them, that he did not exploit them or put any burdens on them. He may even have been quoting an accusation that his opponents laid on him: that he had won them over by craftiness and trickery. His intention, then, would be to say that this was ridiculous and that he proved by his actions that such was not the case – and that he expended his ministry among them out of love (as indicated in verse 15).

I can understand why you hold your perspective. Perhaps it is true, as you allege, that he was jesting, using sarcasm, or meant the opposite of what he actually wrote. What else did he write that we should interpret opposite of what he actually wrote?

It's hard to believe a man who claims that his word is indeed from Messiah (13:3) & his proof to support that is that he alone constitutes three witnesses - because he visited them three times (2 Cor 13:1)!

 

[ContraMundum]

"Whether we like it or not?"
I'm sure I'll get reported, but I can't over look this.
Gentiles telling us what Judaism is? People who know/knew nothing
about Torah and Judaism until recently telling those of us who have lived
and breathed if for thousands of year what's what? Hah.

Anyway, back to the question. I on occasion hear a Messianic station on the radio.
The impression I have gotten is that mainstream Christian churches don't care-until
Messianics start preaching that unless one follows Torah, one can't truly be "saved".
And that they need to follow the Torah, and they "evangelized" (if that's the proper word ) them.
Yes, I have heard Messianic teachers say that. I'm sure it's not mainstream Messianic thought, though.
Every group has it's radicals, LOL.

Very astute observation. Christians couldn't care less about Ms until Ms start attacking them (awful practice and almost always based on misinformation or worse) and then they take note and are more than happy to call them out and expose them in turn. Not a good way to share information and build bridges. Interesting that this is exactly how the Jews feel about them too. No one cares until they attack them. This is how the anti-missionary movement got it's fuel.

As a Jewish Christian I get given a lot of books and articles about Jewish-Christian relations and theology and Hebrew roots stuff by people who think I need to read them. Quite often, if it's written by a Messianic, it's really very nutty. (Note: some Messiancs do have a grasp of reality and are very good teachers) I now cringe when someone plops such stuff before me, as I don't want to offend by rejecting it nor do I want to spend precious minutes of my life reading it and getting back to the giver correcting it with the facts. So, I just avoid it altogether when possible.

 

[yedida]

But aren't you speculating as to his intentions, here? There's nothing to stop me from interpreting this verse in a straightforward manner either. Was he exaggerating in the next verse (12) about his qualifications?

I can understand why you hold your perspective. Perhaps it is true, as you allege, that he was jesting, using sarcasm, or meant the opposite of what he actually wrote. What else did he write that we should interpret opposite of what he actually wrote?

It's hard to believe a man who claims that his word is indeed from Messiah (13:3) & his proof to support that is that he alone constitutes three witnesses - because he visited them three times (2 Cor 13:1)!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As a Jewish Christian I get given a lot of books and articles about Jewish-Christian relations and theology and Hebrew roots stuff by people who think I need to read them. Quite often, if it's written by a Messianic, it's really very nutty. (Note: some Messiancs do have a grasp of reality and are very good teachers) I now cringe when someone plops such stuff before me, as I don't want to offend by rejecting it nor do I want to spend precious minutes of my life reading it and getting back to the giver correcting it with the facts. So, I just avoid it altogether when possible.

There's truly a great need for discernment in the times we live in...

 

[pat34lee]

It's hard to believe a man who claims that his word is indeed from Messiah (13:3) & his proof to support that is that he alone constitutes three witnesses - because he visited them three times (2 Cor 13:1)!

You can't pay attention to chapter divisions which are not part of the original letters. Look back at 2 Cor 12:18 for the other two.

I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps?
​

 

[mishkan]

You can't pay attention to chapter divisions which are not part of the original letters. Look back at 2 Cor 12:18 for the other two.

I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps?
​

I detest the chapter breaks that have been added to our Bibles! They nearly always disrupt the flow of thought, and lend to a sound-bite theology. Sometimes, they seem to be inserted at random, with no regard for what constitutes a logical unit.