How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

[Laureate]

How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

I met the cases somewhere in China where MJ was thought as a Heresy at least 5 times. Even the names of Rock Jean(a Taiwanese M) and me(Yosef Hai) were published(in Chinese) on web to criticize MJ. Maybe the writer a leader of church thinks me as a represent of MJ Beijing even China.

So I want to know can they represent the main streams of Christianity? How many People who call themselves “Christian” all over the world do think MJ is a heresy ? the concrete details, what is the about centigrade?
Really some Christianity styles in China(especially the teachers) want to destroy MJ theory、practice and groups in spirit, I don’t know whether their teachings are from their western theological background, or their own local theological background, or both(Their English level is better than mine). I think the teachers love their authority most, so they think their judgments are always right and can not be queried. I don’t want to respond to them and their followers.

A follower of the teachers dare set the inquisition by their authority system in the biggest Chinese Judaism forum and more forums.

I appreciate your care here.

Though I'm new in the Messianic Community I've been practicing my faith for 20+ yrs, I knew we existed in numbers, I was just unaware we actually had a community.

I know we intimidate many inadvertently, most denominations have a "all you need to know" statement that underlies their doctrine, so when someone comes along and suggests that they are missing something whether directly or implied it can be very unsettling for them.

Just because I would use "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus" or "Elohym" instead of "God" someone actually thought I was trying to act superior, or show off.

Because the greater Messianic Community is as diverse as all the denominations put together they are at a disadvantage when it comes to labeling us with definitions.

I heard recently how some of us Gentle Messianics carry over from their denominational back grounds have a "big brother" attitude towards our Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters, I pray that I do not come off like that.

Hey LambofJesus, good to see you in our neck of the woods, I'm afraid I was on the brink of disowning the title "Christian" because of the vast misrepresentation of the title, but after careful reconsideration realized that their is nothing wrong with the title, just its representation, for to say, I'm not a Christian/an anointed follower of Christ, is the same as saying, I am not Messianic/an anointed follower of HaMeshiach.

last but not least I must share my first impression that I received when I first entered this Messianic community, and basically what I saw was a community seeking greater unification among its members, but with such diversity seeking unification I believe we will only be able to achieve it by being a little more patient with each other, with (a degree of) toleration, stemming out of maturity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by someguy14 All believers in God are one, and only those that truely, wholeheartedly believe in God, understand.

Come again???

Don't we become like the Disciples of Jesus when we come to believe in YAHWEH the Father and His Son, Jesus the Christ

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 16:10 "And all Mine are Yours and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We [are.]
12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name.
Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[someguy14]

Man made traditions divide and war against the souls of those that would enter. God is greater.

 

[bibledoctor]

There is something specific that alot of modern Christians do which is called 'Judaizing' ... I'm not exactly sure what that means yet.

 

[someguy14]

All believers in God are one.

 

[yedida]

There is something specific that alot of modern Christians do which is called 'Judaizing' ... I'm not exactly sure what that means yet.

Back in the day there were believers (Jewish) that were teaching the gentiles that to be a part of the Way, they had to undergo formal conversion into Judaism. That is what Paul faught against.
Some people think that there are modern Judaizers, but I don't see how this is possible. The newer system for becoming Jewish now demands the convert to renounce their allegience to any other "god", i.e., they must publicly and verbally renounce Yeshua. So how could there possibly be modern-day Christians who are Judaizers? Makes no sense....

 

[Yusuphhai]

Happy Sukkot dear fiends!

I have read all posts of this thread, thank for your kind replies. Recently I am attacked and criticized for the sake of MJ on web. I feel very tired. But fortunately I am one of administrators of a Chinese Christianity-Judaism relationship web group and the biggest Chinese Judaism web group. I have authority to delete the posts or kick off the publishers of them that condemn MJ or J or C as heresy. And now I have a Christian church to visit on Sunday, I don’t know how long I can stay there. The leader of it likes Romanism.

Anyway, Have a blessed Sukkot!

 

[visionary]

Though I'm new in the Messianic Community I've been practicing my faith for 20+ yrs, I knew we existed in numbers, I was just unaware we actually had a community.

I know we intimidate many inadvertently, most denominations have a "all you need to know" statement that underlies their doctrine, so when someone comes along and suggests that they are missing something whether directly or implied it can be very unsettling for them.

Just because I would use "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus" or "Elohym" instead of "God" someone actually thought I was trying to act superior, or show off.

Because the greater Messianic Community is as diverse as all the denominations put together they are at a disadvantage when it comes to labeling us with definitions.

I heard recently how some of us Gentle Messianics carry over from their denominational back grounds have a "big brother" attitude towards our Messianic Jewish brothers and sisters, I pray that I do not come off like that.

Hey LambofJesus, good to see you in our neck of the woods, I'm afraid I was on the brink of disowning the title "Christian" because of the vast misrepresentation of the title, but after careful reconsideration realized that their is nothing wrong with the title, just its representation, for to say, I'm not a Christian/an anointed follower of Christ, is the same as saying, I am not Messianic/an anointed follower of HaMeshiach.

last but not least I must share my first impression that I received when I first entered this Messianic community, and basically what I saw was a community seeking greater unification among its members, but with such diversity seeking unification I believe we will only be able to achieve it by being a little more patient with each other, with (a degree of) toleration, stemming out of maturity.

I agree... It is our character change into His Image that is more important than commenting on another's walk on the path, be they ahead, behind, or on a off shoot. I say let us reveal the path we are on, and let God touch the heart whether it be ours or theirs as which is the right path. We are to continue in a humble manner, because we know not the walk another has to take or has taken. We know not the struggles, except the ones they revealed to us, and we do not understand the hold it has upon their soul, unless God reveals it to us. We may not be their answer to prayer. But let us listen more, say less, and pray without ceasing that we are doing His Will in all matters.

This struggle over doctrines is usually done in strife, so what is our first clue that it is not of God. If there is anger in one's heart over the Words, then stop and pray for them. They have reached their limit, and until they overcome this stumbling block they will not be able to proceed any further in the path of light and truth. Doctrines can be modified, can be clarified, and can be anchors for one's faith. What doctrines are is statements, but they are not the living breathing relationship with Him. So before getting into contentions, strife, and controversies, look at the soul of the one you are conversing with, and see if they would be better served with praying together and lovingly brought closer to Him.

 

[Qnts2]

Back in the day there were believers (Jewish) that were teaching the gentiles that to be a part of the Way, they had to undergo formal conversion into Judaism. That is what Paul faught against.
Some people think that there are modern Judaizers, but I don't see how this is possible. The newer system for becoming Jewish now demands the convert to renounce their allegience to any other "god", i.e., they must publicly and verbally renounce Yeshua. So how could there possibly be modern-day Christians who are Judaizers? Makes no sense....

I do believe that 'modern-day' believers can be 'Judaizers'. A Judaizer sought for Gentiles to live like Jews. From a Judaism perspective, to live like a Jew included circumcision to become a Jew and live like a Jew.
Modern day Jewish or Gentiles believers who are Judaizers insist that to be part of the people of God, one must live like a Jew (with or without circumcision).

 

[visionary]

I do believe that 'modern-day' believers can be 'Judaizers'. A Judaizer sought for Gentiles to live like Jews. From a Judaism perspective, to live like a Jew included circumcision to become a Jew and live like a Jew.
Modern day Jewish or Gentiles believers who are Judaizers insist that to be part of the people of God, one must live like a Jew (with or without circumcision).

To me Judiazers are those who think that letters of the law are more important than the relationship. You can find those in any crowd. Think of a catholic who reverses the order in which they make the sign of the cross... and the consternation of the Judiazers watching.

 

[yedida]

I do believe that 'modern-day' believers can be 'Judaizers'. A Judaizer sought for Gentiles to live like Jews. From a Judaism perspective, to live like a Jew included circumcision to become a Jew and live like a Jew.
Modern day Jewish or Gentiles believers who are Judaizers insist that to be part of the people of God, one must live like a Jew (with or without circumcision).

With the Jewish lifestyle being as diverse as the Christian lifestyle, I still don't see how one could insist that another live like Jews - which ones, which group is to be emulated?
I can see the Messianic who is doing their best to live out God's words as spoken through Moses and Yeshua saying that God's commands are to be obeyed - to me that is not insisting that one live like a Jew.

 

[aniello]

To me Judiazers are those who think that letters of the law are more important than the relationship. You can find those in any crowd. Think of a catholic who reverses the order in which they make the sign of the cross... and the consternation of the Judiazers watching.

I would agree that walking in close relationship to G-d is extremely important. How can we do that unless we, to the best of our abilities and His providing, do that lest we obey, willing in our hearts?

Being a Jew, but having been exposed( like to measles or mumps ) to RCC, eventually being raised by my secular Jewish Dad/uncle, but still socially exposed to catholics( to appease various people occasionally), I have never seen a "Judaizer" have any qualms about how a catholic crosses themself, either to the left or right or a general swirling motion(who knows, who cares). I just don't see such analogous to what Qnts2 is saying. I don't seek a hassle over this, I just don't get it.

I am wondering what Qnts2 sees as fit for an MJ Jew to do and what is fit for a saved or redeemed Gentile, who recognizes the value of Torah, to do. Such is not clear to me at all, Qnts2's view of it at all.

Not desiring hassles, just seeking clarification(s).

Must go to work now.

Dopo(later), ciaou

 

[visionary]

So there must not have been a Judiazer in the crowd, because they are worse than lawyers... they will tag you for every misstep from the order that the religion requires. Islam is full of these type of fanatics

 

[Qnts2]

With the Jewish lifestyle being as diverse as the Christian lifestyle, I still don't see how one could insist that another live like Jews - which ones, which group is to be emulated?
I can see the Messianic who is doing their best to live out God's words as spoken through Moses and Yeshua saying that God's commands are to be obeyed - to me that is not insisting that one live like a Jew.

The term 'Jewish lifestyle', especially in Orthodox Judaism, means living like a Jew. Which means keeping the Mosaic law.

I see a Judaizer as a person who insists that others must keep the Mosaic law to be counted as a member of the people of God, not just belief in Yeshua.

 

[Qnts2]

I would agree that walking in close relationship to G-d is extremely important. How can we do that unless we, to the best of our abilities and His providing, do that lest we obey, willing in our hearts?

Being a Jew, but having been exposed( like to measles or mumps ) to RCC, eventually being raised by my secular Jewish Dad/uncle, but still socially exposed to catholics( to appease various people occasionally), I have never seen a "Judaizer" have any qualms about how a catholic crosses themself, either to the left or right or a general swirling motion(who knows, who cares). I just don't see such analogous to what Qnts2 is saying. I don't seek a hassle over this, I just don't get it.

I am wondering what Qnts2 sees as fit for an MJ Jew to do and what is fit for a saved or redeemed Gentile, who recognizes the value of Torah, to do. Such is not clear to me at all, Qnts2's view of it at all.

Not desiring hassles, just seeking clarification(s).

Must go to work now.

Dopo(later), ciaou

My view is simple, if a Gentile who is born again, feels called by God to keep the Mosaic law, then they certainly should. If a Gentile who is born again does not feel called to keep Kosher, then they should not. (Gentiles were not required to keep Kosher in the Mosaic law but were requested to avoid consuming blood before the Mosaic law, in the Mosaic law, and after the Mosaic law).

In otherwords, I see Judaizing as insisting the Mosaic law (or traditional church laws) as a requirement to be good believers, or even a member of the family of God (sons of God by adoption thru Yeshua). Or to view other believers in Yeshua as somehow inferior or superior based on the their conduct. A Judaizer places additional requirements not necessary to be a full member of the body of Messiah, or a equal member in the body of Messiah.

 

[aniello]

So there must not have been a Judiazer in the crowd, because they are worse than lawyers... they will tag you for every misstep from the order that the religion requires. Islam is full of these type of fanatics

I assure you there is NOTHING, no nothing, worse than lawyers. Well maybe overly marionite catholics, calvinists, liberal churchers and nearly everyone else, except me, of course. I walk on water and don't even leave tracks. Pretty good of me. Yeah sure, right.

 

[aniello]

My view is simple, if a Gentile who is born again, feels called by God to keep the Mosaic law, then they certainly should. If a Gentile who is born again does not feel called to keep Kosher, then they should not. (Gentiles were not required to keep Kosher in the Mosaic law but were requested to avoid consuming blood before the Mosaic law, in the Mosaic law, and after the Mosaic law).

In otherwords, I see Judaizing as insisting the Mosaic law (or traditional church laws) as a requirement to be good believers, or even a member of the family of God (sons of God by adoption thru Yeshua). Or to view other believers in Yeshua as somehow inferior or superior based on the their conduct. A Judaizer places additional requirements not necessary to be a full member of the body of Messiah, or a equal member in the body of Messiah.

Ok, think I'm beginning to catch where you're coming from. Like to hear more later, I'm strapped time-wise today with a divorce-child custody case, a heart breaking mess. Our culture has become a cess pool.

BTW, yesterday/Sunday, I attended a Cal-chapel service up in town, at which Dr. Rich Freeman spoke on Jewish Outreach. He was excellent!! A lot of the Calvary-Chapel folks were in a state of shock afterward.

I got to talk with him privily later and he was most helpful. Also, he knows my old friend Steve Fenchel, with Chosen People, over in Manhattan(IIRC)? Steve had a congregation up in town years ago. Guess he has had by-pass ops. but is doing well now. Pray so.

Got Dr. Freeman's book The Heart of the Apostle. So far a good and helpful read.

Must get back in hearing now.

ciaou.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Happy Sukkot dear fiends!

I have read all posts of this thread, thank for your kind replies. Recently I am attacked and criticized for the sake of MJ on web. I feel very tired. But fortunately I am one of administrators of a Chinese Christianity-Judaism relationship web group and the biggest Chinese Judaism web group. I have authority to delete the posts or kick off the publishers of them that condemn MJ or J or C as heresy. And now I have a Christian church to visit on Sunday, I don’t know how long I can stay there. The leader of it likes Romanism.

Anyway, Have a blessed Sukkot!

Praying that the Lord would give you grace to address the situations coming at you currently and that you'd have his wisdom which he makes available (as James 1 talks on). SHalom, Friend

 

[visionary]

My view is simple, if a Gentile who is born again, feels called by God to keep the Mosaic law, then they certainly should. If a Gentile who is born again does not feel called to keep Kosher, then they should not. (Gentiles were not required to keep Kosher in the Mosaic law but were requested to avoid consuming blood before the Mosaic law, in the Mosaic law, and after the Mosaic law).

In otherwords, I see Judaizing as insisting the Mosaic law (or traditional church laws) as a requirement to be good believers, or even a member of the family of God (sons of God by adoption thru Yeshua). Or to view other believers in Yeshua as somehow inferior or superior based on the their conduct. A Judaizer places additional requirements not necessary to be a full member of the body of Messiah, or a equal member in the body of Messiah.

The only place that you are going to find the limitations of things like the avoidance of consuming blood is not in Torah but in Rabbinical law for the gentile and in this I would say that God never stated anywhere that gentiles were of a different type of human body than a Jew, and both are required to keep their temple holy. Thus said, it may have been a place to start for the newbies into the faith, so not to cause upset at the omeg table in the synagogue if the gentiles brought food not sacrificed to idols or was improperly slaughtered so that they could fellowship together. But to think that is the end all be all for gentiles.. is sub-categorizing them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The only place that you are going to find the limitations of things like the avoidance of consuming blood is not in Torah but in Rabbinical law for the gentile and in this I would say that God never stated anywhere that gentiles were of a different type of human body than a Jew, and both are required to keep their temple holy. .

There's is this to consider..

Genesis 9:4
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

Leviticus 7:25-27

And wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of any bird or animal. 27 Anyone who eats blood must be cut off from their people.’

Leviticus 17:10-12 /Leviticus 17
I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

​

The Torah/Law given by the Lord have always been instructive/useful and beautiful in a myriad of ways--but there are many things which occurred outside of the Mosaic Law which were always on the heart of the Lord....and rather than saying with Acts 15 that only the Mosaic Law noted such things, I'd say it echoed things that were already in existence...like, in example, noting the need for grain/animal sacrifices even though that had been going on for ages since Adam/Eve and their sons lived in Genesis 4 (more discussed in #5 and #182 ).

As one individual wisely said best on the subject:

Acts 15:20, 29


. . . that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well. Farewell (Acts 15:29).

(1) The prohibition against eating blood is NOT from the Mosaic law. It is from Genesis 9:2-4, which obviously predates Mosaic law. This is a universal prohibition for the entire human race and for all time. (If you try to argue that it is not, you must also argue that the prohibition against murder is not.)

(2) According to Genesis 9:3-4, blood is not food. It does not say that blood is a forbidden food; it says that blood is not food (for, just as God defined food in Genesis 1:29 as plant matter, here He defines food as plant matter and animal flesh, excluding blood).

(3) Whenever one bleeds an animal killed for meat, he has fulfilled the command of Genesis 9 not to eat meat with the blood. (By the way, eating a rare steak is not sin, as long as the meat was properly bled when it was slaughtered. A small amount of blood always remains in meat even after bleeding. Further, cooking meat so that it no longer appears red does not remove the tiny bit of blood that remains – it simply changes its color.) To put it more precisely, in Genesis 9 God forbids the INTENTIONAL eating of blood – either by extracting blood and drinking it, or by intentionally leaving it in meat slaughtered for consumption. This is because “the life is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11). There is something fundamentally wrong with eating what still has the life in it. This is related to the whole concept of sacrifice that is so central to Christ’s redeeming work, for in the spilling of blood there is the taking of life. It is also one of the reasons why many pagan religions advocate the eating of blood. (In fact, there is a whole pagan theology of eating one’s enemies in order to absorb their life-force, but that is a matter for another time. . . .)

(4) Fornication is also something that God universally prohibits, though it is more difficult to find this in Scripture by chapter and verse. I believe that Genesis 2:24 essentially establishes the only context in which sexual relations are approved by God: marriage. This is not a merely Mosaic regulation; it is universally binding on all of mankind. It is clear that God forbids fornication (i.e. sexual immorality – any kind of sex outside of marriage) even among pagans. Again, the prohibition against fornication is not a Mosaic prohibition, but a universal one.

(5) Idolatry is obviously also something that God universally forbids. This hardly needs to be supported (see Romans 1:22-25 for just one example).

(6) The conclusion is clear. The four things prohibited in the Acts 15 letter are all NON-MOSAIC, universal regulations. They are, and always have been, universally binding on all humans. They are, however, also strongly emphasized in Mosaic law. Pagan society in the first century was woefully unaware of these universal regulations – except through the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures (hence James’ comment in Acts 15:21). When the Jerusalem church agreed that Mosaic regulations should not be imposed on the Gentile believers, they recognized that with the rejection of Mosaic regulations as binding on Gentile Christians, it might be understood that the prohibitions against idolatry, eating blood, eating strangled meat, and fornication should also be thrown out, as they were only generally known through Mosaic law. The church was careful to restate these regulations not because they wanted to avoid scandalizing Jewish believers, but because they were and are and always will be universally binding on all mankind. They did not want to appear to be condoning what God had universally condemned.


........The only requirement placed on the Gentile believers was that they “abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication” (verse 25). The problem seems to be in what the Jerusalem Council did not say about Jewish practice. The Jerusalem elders probably clarified the fact that Jewish Christians could continue to keep the law, not as a means to salvation, but as an expression of love and obedience.

They could delight in the law, not because it gave them any merit or standing before God, but because it had been fulfilled in Christ, and because they were now righteous in God’s sight. The standards of righteousness which the law upheld were now no longer a cause of fear, but the basis for rejoicing and worship. They once were frustrated by their own failure to fulfill the laws demands, but now they rejoiced because Christ had fulfilled the entire law and they were not under the curse. And the kingdom to which the Old Testament saint looked forward was a certainty, which Jewish and Gentile saints would receive together (see Hebrews 11:39-40).

....Paul’s very strong words in the Book of Galatians were addressed to those who would impose the law and law-keeping on Gentile believers, not toward those who were true believers and who wished, as Jewish Christians, to continue to live in accordance with the law and to observe Old Testament rituals. It was one (damnable) thing for Judaisers to insist that Gentile saints must keep the law in order to be saved, and quite another for Jewish Christians to keep the law because they were saved. Even Gentiles were not turned away from the law, but were enabled to fulfill its requirements:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

​

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Additionally, as the Messianic Jews/Gentiles over at "First Fruits of Zion" said best:

We encourage Gentile believers to take hold of the uniquely Jewish aspects of Torah observance such as Sabbath, the festivals, and the biblical dietary laws as part of their walk of discipleship.However, we also acknowledge that the apostles did not require the Gentile believers to do so. They wrote to the Gentiles as follows:

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. (Acts 15:28-29)
​

Obviously the Gentile believers have more obligations to Torah than just these four commandments. We believe that the Gentile believers kept the commandments of Torah like their fellow God-fearing Gentiles in the synagogues. They kept as much as they could, but were not legally liable for certain Jewish distinctive: the commandments of circumcision, Sabbath, festivals, and Levitical dietary laws. That means that the God-fearing Gentiles could not be punished by the leadership of the Jewish community for failure to keep those particular commandments because they were not legally "under the law" in the same way that Jewish people were.
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