How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

Avodat · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
It was intended only as an abbreviation, but as long as it is not disrespectful, then I don't mind if he doesn't. Even though the chances are he is young enough to be my son, rather than the other way round.

If it is disrespectful, then I will edit it.

As an abbreviation I have no problem If it as intended to be 'Father' as used by some ministers then I would object.

You must be very, very old

Catherineanne · Oct 6, 2012

Easy G (G²);61516543 said:
When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41).

This is true, I think.

In Judaism as I understand it (and do say if I have misunderstood) a ritually pure item or person can be rendered ritually unclean by coming into contact with something ritually impure. The focus is on retaining purity by separation, and when contamination occurs by restoring it through ritual purification if possible.

Christ turns this upside down. He shows us that anything that is pure in him cannot be made ritually unclean; it simply cannot be done. Man cannot undo what God has done, and when God makes something pure or holy it stays that way. Therefore when Christ enters the house of a sinner he is not defiled; the house is sanctified by his presence.

This means that Christians are not constrained from associating with sinners, with unclean people, with sick people, with dirt or disease of any kind. A Christian cannot be ritually defiled, because Christ cannot. Wherever Christ goes, whoever he touches, whatever he does, he sanctifies. He cannot be made ritually unclean by anyone. And in him, neither can we; that which is truly holy cannot be defiled.

Catherineanne · Oct 6, 2012

Avodat said:
As an abbreviation I have no problem If it as intended to be 'Father' as used by some ministers then I would object.

You must be very, very old

I am. My daughter is 19, but further than that I am not prepared to say.

As Lady Bracknell rightly says; 'A lady should never be too precise about her age; it looks so calculating.'

pat34lee · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
in time he also learned to be tolerant of Hellenic converts to the Way, who he did not think ought to be expected to comply with the Torah.

Not exactly. He thought that they should not have to convert to Judaism in order to fellowship with others and learn at the synagogue. It was expected that as they learned Torah, they would follow it.

As an expression of personal love, if any of us choose to honour God by following Torah, then God is pleased. If we choose to honour him in a different way, in accordance with a different tradition, then he is no less pleased. Catholics say that God perfects our imperfection; we offer what we have, he meets us where we are and completes it. We do not have to be good enough for him; we only have to do what we can.

It is only when people choose to dishonour God that he has a problem, imo.

If that were true, then the golden calf would have been fine with him, but it was not. He has very specific ways that he wants us to honor him. Any other way is rebellion; putting our desires ahead of his.

yonah_mishael · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
However, finding myself here I will go with what Paul says of himself. He was indeed Torah observant.

These two lines are contradictions.

Gxg (G²) · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
This is true, I think.

In Judaism as I understand it (and do say if I have misunderstood) a ritually pure item or person can be rendered ritually unclean by coming into contact with something ritually impure. The focus is on retaining purity by separation, and when contamination occurs by restoring it through ritual purification if possible.

Christ turns this upside down. He shows us that anything that is pure in him cannot be made ritually unclean; it simply cannot be done. Man cannot undo what God has done, and when God makes something pure or holy it stays that way. Therefore when Christ enters the house of a sinner he is not defiled; the house is sanctified by his presence.

This means that Christians are not constrained from associating with sinners, with unclean people, with sick people, with dirt or disease of any kind. A Christian cannot be ritually defiled, because Christ cannot. Wherever Christ goes, whoever he touches, whatever he does, he sanctifies. He cannot be made ritually unclean by anyone. And in him, neither can we; that which is truly holy cannot be defiled.

On point.

There are so many points in scripture where Christ (in fullfilment of what the Torah says) indeed did things that turned the minds of others upside down because of how he went into the areas where people had said (in the name of the Law) to be forbidden.

The example of Christ with the tax-collectors/"sinners" is something to keep in mind, in light of the fact that just because one was Jewish in the days of Christ didn't mean they led a kosher lifestyle and deemed to be "clean"..

Tax collectors were a trip...with most of them indeed WEALTHY, as it was with Zacchaeus ( Luke 19:1-3 /Luke 19 )..and for those who were tax-collectors, it's something that people often did not want to mix with ...even though Jesus often did went counter to the norms in connecting with them as He often did for those who were outcasts( Matthew 11:19,Matthew 11:18-20, , Matthew 21:31-33/ ,Luke 3:11-13 Luke 3 , Luke 15:1-3 Luke 15, Luke 18:8-10 /Luke 18, etc). When Matthew was called, he did not disguise his past or make any excuse for it, which was humility. Tax collectors were among the most hated and despised in society in society since the money they collected was often extorted for personal gain and partly a tax for Rome, which made them not only theives but traitors to the Jewish Nation. Also, regarding the text, one must keep in mind that there are generally 2 categories of tax collectors: 1.) gabbi collected general taxes on land and property, and a income, referred to as poll and registration taxex; 2.) mokhes colleted a wide variety of use taxes, similar to import duties, buisness license fees, and toll fees. Additionally, there were two categories of mokhes: great mokhes hired others to collect taxes for them; small mokhes did their own assessing and collecting. Matthew was a small mokhes ......and it is likely that there was representivitves of both classes attending Matthew's Feast---ALL of whom were considered social outcasts and of bad reputation. There was still stigma against him when he invited Jesus to come/dine in his home and others were still wondering "Why in the world is Christ fellowshipping with this person who is clearly a sinner?".

For anyone doing sincere research on the types of people who were often at tax-collevtor parties, it'll be apparent that it was not a matter of things being "prime/proper". ...as they were noted to be BUCK WILD!!! For the "religious", Heaven help them if they were there.....but for Christ, He decided to go counter to what many Judeas would've done---and what the Pharisees often did when it came to distancing themselves from anything they thought was unclean. Jesus, in his radical ideology, was able to maintain mobility that the religious leaders simply didn't have...

Christ associated with sinners at morally upright or at least morally neutral places, such as meals in people's homes .

However, because of his love for others, He was willing to go/do what many were not willing to do. I think Jesus was speaking directly to this issue here (Luke 10:25-39):

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25-37)

Those who would have been considered as the most loving of Torah= in the above story not only did not help the half-dead man, but when they saw him they actually passed by on the other side of the road

Considering their positions as Priest and Levite, I’ll assume that they considered the man who lay dying on the side of the road to be unclean, as not only did they not want to help (touch) him, they went to the other side of the road to avoid any possible contact with him. They were more concerned for their own “clean-ness” than they were for the very life of the man bleeding, obviously needing aid, lying at the side of the road. Who did Jesus say to imitate? The consummate Law Keepers, a Priest and a Levite? No... He instructed the expert in the law to imitate the unclean man, a Samaritan.

The responses of the priest and the Levite are truly some of the highlights of the story since they would have become ritually "unclean" by touching what seemed to be a dead person, Leviticus 22:4----with the implications for us being very striking since we in Christ have been made into priests ourselves/in many ways are as they were, 1 Peter 2:8-10

It brings up the point: If someone around the world in Nigeria is taking care of orphans and widows (or the elderly) in the name of Yeshua--and yet another claiming to know all of the secrets of the Torah is barely able to say "Hi" to their neighbors or show any concern because they don't see them as "spiritual", who would be considered he most observant? Romans 2 automaically comes to mind on the matter, as it concerns what the apostle noted...

And with the Good Samaritan parable, it's fascinating to see how the hero of the Story was one who was considered to be the most "unclean" in the day---a Samaritan, one whom many would call a "half-breed" compared to their acts of righteousness.....and yet the Samaritan kept the true SPirit of the Law more than those who should have known better.

When I was in college, I did my Senior Internship at an organization aiding those on the streets and working in the Children's Church department with impoverished children at the organization called-City of Refuge-Bringing Hope to Those Who Live on the Margin. For more, one can also go here . It was...and still is...amazing seeing the myriad of people we'd have to deal with on the b---from single mothers to prostitutes to drug-dealers/many various shades of "homeless" people and others in wild lifestyles. Got to actually pray for/witness to a person hooked on crack on Valentines's Day....with him being amazed that God would even consider loving him. The places many lived---from the projects invested with garbage/rats to having homes where the conditions were often unsanitary to the streets, for those homeless---to the food they ate that was often non-healthy, you saw people in REAL LIFE.

And yet LOVE made the difference and the power of Christ despite what others go through made a world of difference. Eating what was given out of respect/concern....talking to them/hanging out. The amount of stories I'd hear from those who used to be hopeless on the streets and in the realm of being qualified by others as “not deserving of aid/help” and how someone looked past the flaws and showed compassion on them in such a way that they truly saw the love/mercy of Christ and it made the difference in them being solid disciples/aiding others today. You see the same thing repeatedly whenever doing street ministry amongst those deemed to be "sinners" and outside the church.

If the example of Christ is to be followed, it needs to be followed fully and not selectively. ...and that needs to be remembered in light of how often there seem to be battles over whether or not Paul agreed with Christ when it comes to assuming Christ (in his observance of the Torah) never did things that were different from it---and yet there are way too many examples in scripture showing otherwise

Gxg (G²) · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
This is true, I think.

In Judaism as I understand it (and do say if I have misunderstood) a ritually pure item or person can be rendered ritually unclean by coming into contact with something ritually impure. The focus is on retaining purity by separation, and when contamination occurs by restoring it through ritual purification if possible.

Christ turns this upside down. He shows us that anything that is pure in him cannot be made ritually unclean; it simply cannot be done. Man cannot undo what God has done, and when God makes something pure or holy it stays that way. Therefore when Christ enters the house of a sinner he is not defiled; the house is sanctified by his presence.

This means that Christians are not constrained from associating with sinners, with unclean people, with sick people, with dirt or disease of any kind. A Christian cannot be ritually defiled, because Christ cannot. Wherever Christ goes, whoever he touches, whatever he does, he sanctifies. He cannot be made ritually unclean by anyone. And in him, neither can we; that which is truly holy cannot be defiled.

There were some good discussions on the issue you brought up, as it concerns the example of Christ/the apostles and what often happened within the OT when it came to God making provision (more here, here, here, here,here, , here and here, etc). The examples of Esther and Elijah the prophet come to mind in light of where they didn't always eat kosher in sticky situations (more here and here). There were already numerous examples in the scriptures where the Lord made clear that to love someone was more important than remaining kosher in all instances, paticularly as it pertains to the Gospel of Christ...and many things had a specific context that pertained to the Mosaic Code prior to when the Lord rearranged thingd ( Hebrews 9:9-11/Hebrews 9, Hebrews 13:8-10 /Hebrews 13 )---with Gentiles never even being required to eat Kosher to begin with

Ariel Ministries did a great review on the issue here alongside the Messianic brothers/sisters at the Rosh Pina Project as seen here. Dr.Michael Brown also had some good thoughts (as shared here ) as it concerns the ways the apostles practiced Kosher opposite of how many do so legalistically today and what that should teach us in our times when we condemn others in the name of Christ for going to the house of others during outreach/evangelism and proclaiming them inferior because their level of observance with Kosher wasn't the same as our own. For more one can go to Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: New Testament Objections: Volume 4 - Page 279

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Romans 14:16-18 Romans 14

Romans 15:3
We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.”[] 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had, 6 so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[b on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy

When you're truly living life with real people, it's hard not to be reminded of the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-31, alongside all the other ones spoken, were shared in light of the Pharisees looking down upon the tax-collectors (deemed traitors/crooks by the Jewish people ) and the prostitutes (unclean, immoral, etc).

Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
The Parable of the Lost Coin

8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The Parable of the Lost Son

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in.’”

The three parables on the subject of being lost and found were never primarily about Gentiles being brought back into the Jewish community (in regards to anyone saying "older brothers" are those Jews who don't believe Gentiles are meant to be the same in stance as the Jews). The portrayal of the elder son and his resentment was in many ways a subtle criticism of the grumbling Pharisees and scribes toward those within the Jewish community who they deemed to be lower-class Jews...ones who weren't as "Worthy" of salvation as they were. It is no small issue when Yeshua noted that the tax collectors/prostitutes were entering in before the religious leaders of Christ's day..as they understood their need of salvation (Matthew 21:30-32 )

In regards to the greater context of Luke 15, why were the Pharisees and teachers of the law bothered that Jesus associated with the people he did? The religious leaders were always careful to stay "clean" according to the OT law. In fact, they went well beyond the law in their avoidance of certain people and situations and in their ritual washings. By contrast, Jesus took their concept of "cleanness" lightly. He risked defilement by touching those who had leprosy and by neglecting to wash in the Pharisees' prescribed manner, and he showed complete disregard for their sanctions against associating with certain classes of people. He came to offer salvation to sinners, to show that God loves them...and he wasn't concerned with the accusations brought to him by being with the "wrong crowd."

For the Lord associated with sinners because he wanted to bring people considered beyond hope the Gospel of God's kingdom...just as the shepherd was not concerned so much with the bigger flock as much as he was about that one lost sheep. And with the parable Jesus shared, the younger brother was a perfect example of the Jewish indivduals who went away from the Lord/were redeemed and loved just as strongly by the Father as the older/"righteous" brother was. It was hard for the older brother to accept his younger brother when he returned after living a notoriously sinful life--but the Father had to show him that love required forgivness and compassion.
__________________

visionary · Oct 6, 2012

Paul did indeed state that he was Torah observant.

Avodat · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
I am. My daughter is 19, but further than that I am not prepared to say.

As Lady Bracknell rightly says; 'A lady should never be too precise about her age; it looks so calculating.'

My two daughters are 22 and 20 and I have a son aged 37 and I am a retired ex-pat still working in ministry.

ananda · Oct 6, 2012

Catherineanne said:
However, finding myself here I will go with what Paul says of himself. He was indeed Torah observant.

By his own admission, he was not Torah observant.

Compare Gal 1:17,18; 2:2 and Ex 23:17, 34:23, Deu 16:16.

Yusuphhai · Oct 7, 2012

Dear all,

Thank you for your reply and care. I have read carefully more than half of the posts, my English is not very well, so it took me much time. I am glad that general Christian , Judaism believer and Messianic can discuss this topic in different personal opinion peacefully. What I hope to see is the friendship among these different groups, at least in basic polite manner to each other.

Yusuphhai · Oct 7, 2012

A web group of Torah Learning Christian/ Relationship between Christianity & Judaism (abbr. TCG ) in China was originally built by mainly Chinese Judaism believers (Noah Movement). TCG is administered by both C&J. I think Chinese Judaism is more tolerant to the different religions than Chinese Christianity. According to the requirement of dialogue between different religions by their J group ,TCG also plans to be open to other religions on the foundation which protects C&J. TCG prohibits to condemn Judaism, Messianism, and Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant Christianity “Heresy”. TCG welcome J&C, Monotheism &non-Monotheism, religion& non-religion to dialog or learn Torah. In China the knowledge about Torah has not been widely spread. What I have known about Torah is also very limited.

Yusuphhai · Oct 7, 2012

The Sukkah from the picture I pasted was not built by me or in China, I just like it and use this symbol to celebrate Sukkot. Sorry made you misunderstood. If later someone guides me maybe I will have opportunity to build one.

Yusuphhai · Oct 7, 2012

And the church I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.

Have a blessed Sukkot!

Yusuph Hai

yedida · Oct 7, 2012

Yusuphhai said:
And the church I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.

Have a blessed Sukkot!

Yusuph Hai

Seems China has a long way to come and is on its way. Praise God! Hang on to what your good friend David taught you and enjoy the ride, you're in the front car of a roller coaster, lots of hills and valleys to traverse. I'm happy to see China finally seeing the Messiah is all His glory. Yeshua has you firmly in His hand and I have a feeling He has something very special in store for you!

ChavaK · Oct 7, 2012

Yusuphhai said:
(abbr. TCG ) in China was originally built by mainly Chinese Judaism believers (Noah Movement).

Interesting that you mention Noahides. I was speaking to a rabbi friend yesterday who teaches Noahides online. He said there is a growing
Noahide movement in China. Have you found that to be true?

yedida · Oct 8, 2012

someguy14 said:
God is God. Gods Word is God, Gods Spirit is God. "Misguided mainstream christianity" may fight in order to convert one to believe it is divided. The truth is God is one. God is one. Christianity does not worship "mary" and does not divide God into different parts. Regardless of how many are against that. One God. If I am hated by the world, I am loved by God. It is easy to be loved by the perishing world. It is easy to get worldly gain. In order for one to follow God as God desires, one must follow the 10 commandments perfectly. Love God with all, and love others as thyself. One is only capable of loving another fully if that one loves God fully. God is all love. Only with God, is that possible.

Do you remember the Sabbath? How do you remember it? How do you keep it holy?

yedida · Oct 8, 2012

Yusuphhai said:
And the church I take part in on Sunday is a protestant church(most Chinese underground churches are protestant or of local opinion or both). The leader personally likes the church style of Romanism before Catholic but I know also many protestant Christians dislikes it or think it had some mistakes. If this church can be tolerant and kind to different opinion, friendship can be continuous. Generally I would tell them I am from Orient Abrahamic faith background.

Have a blessed Sukkot!

Yusuph Hai

Yusuph, Check your PM, I sent you a general info letter that your friend David sent to our shul. If you haven't heard from him lately, I thought you'd like to hear what he's up to these days (he made it to Israel safely).....

yedida · Oct 8, 2012

someguy14 said:
Feel free to throw me on a cross.

I have a feeling you'd think that would be a good thing

aniello · Oct 8, 2012

Originally Posted by someguy14

Feel free to throw me on a cross.

yedida said:
I have a feeling you'd think that would be a good thing

Some nice music for the occasion.

Zefren presents Hearts and Flowers - 1908 - YouTube

Would have linked the Brahms Requiem but it's a bit long.

How Do the Mainstreams of Christianity Look MJ As?

Contending for Biblical truth

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Messianic

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Contending for Biblical truth

Early Buddhist

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

aniello

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency