How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Root of Jesse]

That's your own belief.
Intimacy with your spouse is not evil.
Even if you are intimate daily, its not evil.
God designed it to deepen intimacy and
God Himself is involved in the Spirit.
You act as though sex is dirty and so
should only be enjoyed how or when
you think is 'holy'.

Intimacy, improperly used, can very easily be evil. I've shown that already. And it's not about how many times a week you have it. I've never said sex is dirty in any way. What I've said is that it should be offered to God. FWIW, nothing God gives us is dirty. How we use it can be.

I'd dare say some people here pray WHILE "having relations".

Not at all what I meant.

Marital bed is the least of our concerns.
But it's not dirty in any way and you're
trying to make it seem dirty.. like Mary
having sex with her husband was a dirty thing
and makes her "impure" when it's just the
opposite.
NOT obeying God in the marriage duty is
what makes one vulnerable.

Again, I never said it's dirty. Properly used, it is beautiful. Mankind tends to make it dirty. But sexual pleasure is of the world. You like to say that we Catholics don't allow Mary to have sex, well, we say that Mary chose to consecrate herself to God, and did, giving her sexuality totally to her spouse-the Holy Spirit. As Joseph was the foster father of Jesus, he was also the foster spouse.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I suspect the catch-22 or between the rock and a hard place sort of problem was lost on folks. Should I spell it out?

She's ever-virgin, thus disobeys scripture, and sins.
She's normally married, thus obeying God, and sinless, but loses the ever-virgin motif.

In what way does choosing not to have sex disobey Scripture? In what way does choosing not to have sex disobey God?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually when defining "up to" as in "X happened up to Y point", the word that is used is achri.

Matt 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until (achri) the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Luke 1:20 - And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until (achri) the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Heos is used to point out an action that will occur once something else has come to pass

Luke 13:21 - 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.



Matt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till (heos) thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


So yes, And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son...is saying that he didn't have sex with her until after she had the baby.

Oh, so you're using the mistranslated version of the Bible! I get it. You see what happens when you change one little word? Or misconstrue it?

 

[Rhamiel]

also, that is assuming that the marriage of Joseph and Mary was a normal marriage

 

[Stryder06]

Oh, so you're using the mistranslated version of the Bible! I get it. You see what happens when you change one little word? Or misconstrue it?

So that's your response now lol. Which version did you pick the word heos out of? I showed you the difference in usage and now your only response is "Well the KJV is mistranslated anyway."

Come on now. You have to do better than that.

 

[Stryder06]

also, that is assuming that the marriage of Joseph and Mary was a normal marriage

What reason should anyone think it wasn't?

 

[Root of Jesse]

So that's your response now lol. Which version did you pick the word heos out of? I showed you the difference in usage and now your only response is "Well the KJV is mistranslated anyway."

Come on now. You have to do better than that.

And your reaction to our interpretation was somehow...better? Besides the 'until', you have Mary's reaction to the Angel Gabriel's request "How can this be since I know not man?" Meaning "How can I be a mother when I've consecrated myself to God?" Those most close to Jesus and the Twelve knew exactly what was being said. Mary was a virgin from birth until death (which does not mean that she was not a virgin after death, lol). You're free not to belive it, as Eve was free to eat of the tree. But you have no basis to say it's not that way. Even using modern marriage customs...

 

[Standing Up]

In what way does choosing not to have sex disobey Scripture? In what way does choosing not to have sex disobey God?

Various verses from scripture were already provided.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Various verses from scripture were already provided.

We disagree. St. Paul even says it's best for a man to be celibate, but not all men can be.

 

[Standing Up]

also, that is assuming that the marriage of Joseph and Mary was a normal marriage

We have no reason, except spurious docetic tradition sourcing to the Proto of James (per Origen) that says it wasn't normal.

As I've mentioned before, the fact of children from Mary/Joseph was used as a proof that Christ came in the flesh (besides 1 John).

Anyway, this thread isn't about Mary. It's about visions purporting to be about the same Mary or are they about a different Mary?

From everything we've seen on this thread, it's clear that the visions are about a false Mary. BUT, this is not to say anything bad about the real Mary. I don't understand why folks have a problem with this. It's like some saying Jesus is a created angel and having a vision that says so. We can reject the vision, yet still believe in Jesus. Why can't folks reject the vision of "Mary", yet still believe in Mary?

 

[Stryder06]

And your reaction to our interpretation was somehow...better?

This isn't about interpretation. You showed the incorrect usage of the word heos, and I showed you that till and until are used differently and that the Greek word for each helps us to understand the word in context. I then provided you with scripture showing the usage of each in context.

Besides the 'until', you have Mary's reaction to the Angel Gabriel's request "How can this be since I know not man?"

Really? She said nothing about being consecrated. It's a logical question. "How can I get pregnant when I haven't had sex" is all she was saying.

Meaning "How can I be a mother when I've consecrated myself to God?" Those most close to Jesus and the Twelve knew exactly what was being said. Mary was a virgin from birth until death (which does not mean that she was not a virgin after death, lol). You're free not to belive it, as Eve was free to eat of the tree. But you have no basis to say it's not that way. Even using modern marriage customs...

My basis has been shown. You're the one making up scenarios and ignoring what the scripture is saying. I never said Mary wasn't a virgin before Christ was born, but the text clearly shows that Joseph slept with his wife after Jesus was born. Jesus wouldn't be called her firstborn if He was her only born. You can't prove your point without falling back on the tradition of your church, and to do that at the expense of the scripture is a dangerous thing. So you can try to liken my refusal to accept this erroneous teaching to Eve, but only one of us here has accepted the "You will not surely die" teaching.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do folk from Protestantism's minor denominations dislike the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so much?

 

[Stryder06]

Why do folk from Protestantism's minor denominations dislike the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so much?

(1) Because it's a lie.

(2) Adds to the list of things she has in common with other false goddesses. Too much of a coincidence.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do folk from Protestantism's minor denominations dislike the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so much?

(1) Because it's a lie.

(2) Adds to the list of things she has in common with other false goddesses. Too much of a coincidence.

It's the truth, but I can tell from your post that you think otherwise

Mary is the mother of our Lord, Jesus Christ; do you feel any compunction about comparing her to a pagan goddess?

 

[Stryder06]

It's the truth, but I can tell from your post that you think otherwise

Matt 1:25 says otherwise, but I'm certain you'll take the same route ROJ has in debunking that text.

Mary is the mother of our Lord, Jesus Christ; do you feel any compunction about comparing her to a pagan goddess?

Not at all. The Mary your church identifies with is not the same one who gave birth to Christ. You've made her sinless, ever virgin, queen of heaven, etc, etc. Those are characteristics found in many a pagan goddess. The fact that this doesn't cause you to take pause is what's really disturbing.

 

[revrobor]

Why do folk from Protestantism's minor denominations dislike the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so much?

Since Jesus had brothers it is not possible that Mary was a perpetual virgin unless of course His brothers were all born from immaculate conceptions.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Matt 1:25 says otherwise, but I'm certain you'll take the same route ROJ has in debunking that text.



Not at all. The Mary your church identifies with is not the same one who gave birth to Christ. You've made her sinless, ever virgin, queen of heaven, etc, etc. Those are characteristics found in many a pagan goddess. The fact that this doesn't cause you to take pause is what's really disturbing.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Matt 1:25 says otherwise, but I'm certain you'll take the same route ROJ has in debunking that text.

One need never debunk a bible text but your spin on it is always subject to refutation as spin of that kind often is. But since you express such confidence about what will come I will spare you the need to read anything new.

Not at all. The Mary your church identifies with is not the same one who gave birth to Christ. You've made her sinless, ever virgin, queen of heaven, etc, etc. Those are characteristics found in many a pagan goddess. The fact that this doesn't cause you to take pause is what's really disturbing.

If you believe all the stuff you wrote above then why spend your time and effort 'debunking' a myth? Seems about as useful as debunking Zeus or, from your statements, Ashtoreth.

 

[Stryder06]

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do...

Spare me

I know fully well what I'm doing. We're scripture on your side then the prayer would be much needed. Sadly it's not, and the only thing you can rely on is your tradition, which as the bible says, isn't worth anything, but leads to vain worship.

 

[Stryder06]

One need never debunk a bible text but your spin on it is always subject to refutation as spin of that kind often is.

It's always a "spin" whenever a text is shown that goes against your tradition.

But since you express such confidence about what will come I will spare you the need to read anything new.

If you believe all the stuff you wrote above then why spend your time and effort 'debunking' a myth? Seems about as useful as debunking Zeus or, from your statements, Ashtoreth.

Cause someone else may just pay attention to what's being said. It's called planting the seed