How do I know im saved???

[d taylor]

Well, it all depends on how the believer understands Jesus. For example, members of the LDS most assuredly believe in Jesus Christ. Moreover, they believe that He is (a) god. He is the second member of the Godhead - a triumvirate of three gods, among an unnumbered multitude of other gods. They believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ, which provides the means by which humanity can become gods with their own planets to rule.

Do you embrace the LDS as partakers of the same salvation as that of yourself? If not, why not?

It should not be stated how the believer understands, if the person has not believed in Jesus, they are not a believer.

Believing in a Jesus who is a god, is not the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life of The Bible. Believing in the Atonement is never stated in The Bible as the way a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[d taylor]

The problem, of course, is that faith is a rather ephemeral concept. The reality is that there is not a single individual who does not have faith. Thus, it is not unreasonable to frame faith in Jesus Christ as being saving faith, not necessarily because it is a different form of faith, but that its object (Jesus Christ) provides salvation. The conundrum comes with those individuals whose faith in Jesus Christ differs significantly from that of others. For example, one can easily perceive that RCC faith differs from Protestant faith. One can argue that the RCC places its faith in works and in the Church, but the Protestant faith places its faith in Jesus Christ. On the other side of this equation many argue that the RCC alone contains the fulness of salvation and that Protestantism misses the mark widely. Thus, it becomes convenient for one side to embrace its faith as being "saving faith" and the other as being merely "faith", as in the faith of demons described by James in his epistle.

Eternal Life salvation was never meant for demons. Only for the seed of Adam, demons are the seed of satan.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It should not be stated how the believer understands, if the person has not believed in Jesus, they are not a believer.

Believing in a Jesus who is a god, is not the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life of The Bible. Believing in the Atonement is never stated in The Bible as the way a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Based on your first sentence, then one must accept members of the LDS as fellow-believers in Jesus Christ. They, most assuredly, profess to believe in Jesus Christ.

Your second paragraph seems to contradict the opening sentence. Members of the LDS will tell you in complete honesty and sincerity that they believe in the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life of the Bible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Eternal Life salvation was never meant for demons. Only for the seed of Adam, demons are the seed of satan.

Correct. Thus, not all faith is saving faith.

 

[d taylor]

Based on your first sentence, then one must accept members of the LDS as fellow-believers in Jesus Christ. They, most assuredly, profess to believe in Jesus Christ.

Your second paragraph seems to contradict the opening sentence. Members of the LDS will tell you in complete honesty and sincerity that they believe in the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life of the Bible.

Actually according to you it should not be the Jesus (for LDS), but a Jesus. Because you stated they believe a Jesus who is a god, so their Jesus can not be "the Jesus", who is not a god, but "the God'.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually according to you it should not be the Jesus (for LDS), but a Jesus. Because you stated they believe a Jesus who is a god, so their Jesus can not be "the Jesus", who is not a god, but "the God'.

Actually, you can check it out for yourself. Just go to websites such as FairMormon and you can read for yourself that they fully believe in Jesus Christ who is the Resurrection and the Life and they believe the Bible is the Word of God. You won't see much, if anything, about an undivided Trinity, but you will see references to the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[d taylor]

Actually, you can check it out for yourself. Just go to websites such as FairMormon and you can read for yourself that they fully believe in Jesus Christ who is the Resurrection and the Life and they believe the Bible is the Word of God. You won't see much, if anything, about an undivided Trinity, but you will see references to the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

But you said in an earlier post the Jesus they believe in is a god. So if that is true, the Jesus they believe in is not the Jesus in The Bible. So the Jesus they believe in may be a resurrection and a life, but that is not the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But you said in an earlier post the Jesus they believe in is a god. So if that is true, the Jesus they believe in is not the Jesus in The Bible. So the Jesus they believe in may be a resurrection and a life, but that is not the Jesus who is the resurrection and the life.

That is true. However, you said that all one must do to be saved is to believe in Jesus (the resurrection and the life according to the Bible). According to your standards they are saved because they profess to believe in Jesus Christ, the resurrection and the life according to the Bible. They also believe in the deity of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Bible.

That said, what they rarely tell non-Mormons is their particular understanding of God, the Godhead, and Jesus Christ, which sets them apart from other Christian denominations. According to my understanding, these particular beliefs place them outside of orthodox Christian belief to the point that they believe in a Jesus Christ and a God of their own devising. To be sure, there are similarities between their God(s) and the God of orthodox Christianity, but the differences are too great, in my opinion, to call them actual Christians.

So, I suggest that you need to develop your understanding as to what actually must happen in order for a person to be saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Faith is faith there is no special faith as saving faith. What makes the faith saving is the object the faith is placed in.

Then is it not the value of the faith that makes the difference between whether a believer is ultimately saved or not? You have eternity hinging on the integrity of the faith of a mere fool mortal.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, it is probably the second time since I quoted it verbatim from your own post.

We can all jump into the mystical mist whereby we can simply say that God alone knows who He will save and if He wants to save individual sinners apart from faith in Jesus Christ, that is for Him to decide.

Why is that mystical mist? It is fact. It is for him to decide, and he decided before the foundation of the world. "Election".

While it is true that the believer also decides, their decision is a result of God's decision, and God's action.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

First let's talk "justified", justification refers to how one is righteous, or made right, or put right; that is a matter of righteousness. Specifically here is the question, how is one to be considered righteous before God?

The wonderful aspect of Lutheranism is IT DOESN'T CONTAIN ONE DROP OF CALVINISM.

Both have the same material principles of theology, but one it comes to the formal principle for Lutheran's it JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH and for the Calvinist's the God's sovereignty or double predestination. Why would anybody want the starting point of theology, trying to understand the mind of God.

As you put it in your post....First let's talk "justified" A great starting point of theology.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The wonderful aspect of Lutheranism is IT DOESN'T CONTAIN ONE DROP OF CALVINISM.

Both have the same material principles of theology, but one it comes to the formal principle for Lutheran's it JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH and for the Calvinist's the God's sovereignty or double predestination. Why would anybody want the starting point of theology, trying to understand the mind of God.

As you put it in your post....First let's talk "justified" A great starting point of theology.

While it is true that Lutheranism is not Calvinism, nor ever can be, both find their soteriological basis within Augustinian theology which is quite monergistic. Luther developed that monergism into a sacramental form such that an individual who has been baptized will be saved - not because God necessarily elected them from the foundation of the world, but simply because God, who cannot lie, has stated that everyone who is baptized will be saved. Thus, it is God who saves and does so according to His word and not according to the will of man.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why is that mystical mist? It is fact. It is for him to decide, and he decided before the foundation of the world. "Election".

While it is true that the believer also decides, their decision is a result of God's decision, and God's action.

The mystical mist is, assuredly, not of God's invention. It is simply a development of the human mind which grapples with the concept that God cannot have elected anyone for salvation who will not have faith in Jesus Christ. That includes, perforce, the vast majority of mankind who will never hear or read the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus, it becomes convenient to believe that God will save whom He will and it may well include some of the aforementioned individuals.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While it is true that Lutheranism is not Calvinism, nor ever can be, both find their soteriological basis within Augustinian theology which is quite monergistic. Luther developed that monergism into a sacramental form such that an individual who has been baptized will be saved - not because God necessarily elected them from the foundation of the world, but simply because God, who cannot lie, has stated that everyone who is baptized will be saved. Thus, it is God who saves and does so according to His word and not according to the will of man.

Partly true. God did elect them from the foundation of the world. The difference is how Lutherans understand election. Election is neither secret, nor does it involve God picking and choosing who will (and conversely won't) be saved. Instead election is the entire proclamation of the Gospel by which God, out of His grace and kindness toward us, has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and thus made clearly known through Word and Sacrament. Such that the baptized can know this: They are elected by God, and they can know this because of their baptism. Election is not to be understood as God saying "I save this person, but not this other person"; but rather that God saves, and God saves because it is His gracious will and pleasure to redeem, save, and reconcile the whole human race through Jesus Christ. Yet nevertheless man may resist God's grace and so deprive himself of God's free gift.

It is therefore a "double monergism" if you will.

Salvation does not come from the will of sinful man, but the will of God.
Damnation does not come from the will of God, but the will of sinful man.

So that it is, though God has made justification for all by the cross (Romans 5:18), nevertheless not all necessarily will be saved, for man in his sin, despising God and at enmity with God, prefers darkness over the light. As it is written in John chapter 3, that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes upon Him will not perish but have everlasting life, for Christ did not come to condemn, but to save; yet there is the condemnation already, men loved darkness over the light, for their deeds were evil.

God is pro-active in saving us. That's what Word and Sacrament are about. God is pro-active, unwilling that any should perish, but that all come to everlasting life through Christ our Lord. God doesn't sit idly back waiting for us to come to Him, but rather comes to us, meets us, God comes down.

Throughout the entire Bible, God is always coming down. God comes down to rescue, God comes down to save, God comes down to heal. God came down to meet Abraham, God came down to rescue Israel from Egypt, God comes down. In the Incarnation, in the Scriptures, in the preaching of the Gospel, in the Sacraments. God comes down; we don't go up.

It's not up to us to meet God that He might reward our efforts with salvation and the promise of heavenly bliss. Rather, God comes down, and says, "See here what I do, trust this". For the Law says "Do this" and it is never done; but the Gospel says, "Trust this" for it is already done. For the work is already done and accomplished, Christ has already fought and won, by His obedience, His passion, His resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark Quayle]

The mystical mist is, assuredly, not of God's invention. It is simply a development of the human mind which grapples with the concept that God cannot have elected anyone for salvation who will not have faith in Jesus Christ. That includes, perforce, the vast majority of mankind who will never hear or read the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus, it becomes convenient to believe that God will save whom He will and it may well include some of the aforementioned individuals.

In other words, speculation soothes the soul?

 

[d taylor]

That is true. However, you said that all one must do to be saved is to believe in Jesus (the resurrection and the life according to the Bible). According to your standards they are saved because they profess to believe in Jesus Christ, the resurrection and the life according to the Bible. They also believe in the deity of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Bible.

That said, what they rarely tell non-Mormons is their particular understanding of God, the Godhead, and Jesus Christ, which sets them apart from other Christian denominations. According to my understanding, these particular beliefs place them outside of orthodox Christian belief to the point that they believe in a Jesus Christ and a God of their own devising. To be sure, there are similarities between their God(s) and the God of orthodox Christianity, but the differences are too great, in my opinion, to call them actual Christians.

So, I suggest that you need to develop your understanding as to what actually must happen in order for a person to be saved.

I am not sure why it is so hard for you to grasp this. You said the LDS Jesus is a god of many gods they believe in. So that clearly identifies the Jesus they believe in is not the Jesus (of The Bible) who is The God and not a god.

 

[d taylor]

Then is it not the value of the faith that makes the difference between whether a believer is ultimately saved or not? You have eternity hinging on the integrity of the faith of a mere fool mortal.

There is no ultimately save, that happens. A believer at the very moment of faith in Jesus, crosses over from death to life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Partly true. God did elect them from the foundation of the world. The difference is how Lutherans understand election. Election is neither secret, nor does it involve God picking and choosing who will (and conversely won't) be saved. Instead election is the entire proclamation of the Gospel by which God, out of His grace and kindness toward us, has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and thus made clearly known through Word and Sacrament. Such that the baptized can know this: They are elected by God, and they can know this because of their baptism. Election is not to be understood as God saying "I save this person, but not this other person"; but rather that God saves, and God saves because it is His gracious will and pleasure to redeem, save, and reconcile the whole human race through Jesus Christ. Yet nevertheless man may resist God's grace and so deprive himself of God's free gift.

It is therefore a "double monergism" if you will.

Salvation does not come from the will of sinful man, but the will of God.
Damnation does not come from the will of God, but the will of sinful man.

So that it is, though God has made justification for all by the cross (Romans 5:18), nevertheless not all necessarily will be saved, for man in his sin, despising God and at enmity with God, prefers darkness over the light. As it is written in John chapter 3, that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes upon Him will not perish but have everlasting life, for Christ did not come to condemn, but to save; yet there is the condemnation already, men loved darkness over the light, for their deeds were evil.

God is pro-active in saving us. That's what Word and Sacrament are about. God is pro-active, unwilling that any should perish, but that all come to everlasting life through Christ our Lord. God doesn't sit idly back waiting for us to come to Him, but rather comes to us, meets us, God comes down.

Throughout the entire Bible, God is always coming down. God comes down to rescue, God comes down to save, God comes down to heal. God came down to meet Abraham, God came down to rescue Israel from Egypt, God comes down. In the Incarnation, in the Scriptures, in the preaching of the Gospel, in the Sacraments. God comes down; we don't go up.

It's not up to us to meet God that He might reward our efforts with salvation and the promise of heavenly bliss. Rather, God comes down, and says, "See here what I do, trust this". For the Law says "Do this" and it is never done; but the Gospel says, "Trust this" for it is already done. For the work is already done and accomplished, Christ has already fought and won, by His obedience, His passion, His resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for your excellent explanation regarding Lutheran soteriology. It is much appreciated by myself and, hopefully, others.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not sure why it is so hard for you to grasp this. You said the LDS Jesus is a god of many gods they believe in. So that clearly identifies the Jesus they believe in is not the Jesus (of The Bible) who is The God and not a god.

I have no difficulty in agreeing that the LDS is not a biblically sound Christian faith, nor that its members are deceived and believe in a pseudo-Jesus Christ.

However, you do not seem to understand my point, which is, not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

[d taylor]

I have no difficulty in agreeing that the LDS is not a biblically sound Christian faith, nor that its members are deceived and believe in a pseudo-Jesus Christ.

However, you do not seem to understand my point, which is, not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

There is nowhere in The Bible where it is stated a person receives God's free gift of Eternal life by saying to Jesus "Lord, Lord". The verse list works these people did, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? But what is missing is, not a single mention of these people. Where in these verses state, that these people believed in Jesus name.

Actually further down in this set of verse Jesus states He never knew them. Showing that they were never a permanent born again child of God.

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’