How do I know im saved???

[bbbbbbb]

If you thought i was saying a person is saved by saying a sinners prayer. Then you have completely misunderstood the post i have made. Saying a sinners prayer, is not belief in Jesus.

My point is that "belief in Jesus" encompasses an intelligent understanding of the facts concerning Jesus Christ. These facts are found in the New Testament and are conveyed to an unbeliever either directly through reading it or by hearing it preached plainly.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nevertheless, it is quite impossible for anyone to be saved who is utterly ignorant of Jesus Christ.

Yes, that is the obvious implication of the rhetorical questions of Romans 10:13-16, and it is the conclusion given in 10:17; but I meant only that WE are not up to the task.

It is an interesting "thought experiment", though —just what ARE the barest essentials of the Gospel? Usually the question is responded to, assuming self-awareness and cognitive abilities and abstract thought of the common person. But what does God mean by "the Gospel", if the principle you stated —"it is quite impossible for anyone to be saved who is utterly ignorant of Jesus Christ"— is applied to the clinical idiot, who, let's say, lacks the brain to hear, see, feel or think in conceptual terms? Is it not possible such a person can be made aware, by the Spirit of God, of the painful and hopelessly immense distance between himself and God, and see through regeneration by the Spirit of God taking up residence in him, that God has, of Himself, made the way for him to be brought near, to which he responds with nothing but gladness? I'm guessing that one's faith is of the same nature as ours. Salvific Faith is the work of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, that is the obvious implication of the rhetorical questions of Romans 10:13-16, and it is the conclusion given in 10:17; but I meant only that WE are not up to the task.

It is an interesting "thought experiment", though —just what ARE the barest essentials of the Gospel? Usually the question is responded to, assuming self-awareness and cognitive abilities and abstract thought of the common person. But what does God mean by "the Gospel", if the principle you stated —"it is quite impossible for anyone to be saved who is utterly ignorant of Jesus Christ"— is applied to the clinical idiot, who, let's say, lacks the brain to hear, see, feel or think in conceptual terms? Is it not possible such a person can be made aware, by the Spirit of God, of the painful and hopelessly immense distance between himself and God, and see through regeneration by the Spirit of God taking up residence in him, that God has, of Himself, made the way for him to be brought near, to which he responds with nothing but gladness? I'm guessing that one's faith is of the same nature as ours. Salvific Faith is the work of God.

The great conundrum is that the Bible never uses the term "salvific faith". In order to construct a more humane form of monergism which does not automatically exclude the vast majority of humanity who will never have, nor ever had, the slightest access to the gospel of Jesus Christ one must conceptualize faith as something other than believing or trusting, both of which clearly embrace understanding.

Thus, Lutherans fall back to the efficacy of baptism as fully sufficient for creating salvific faith in the recipient. That definitely modifies the stern Augustinian monergism of Luther's monastic years.

Other loopholes are created for unborn sinners who not only don't experience a second birth, they don't even experience a first birth. Then we have loopholes for mentally incapacitated sinners who, in all fairness, are completely oblivious to anything resembling a Christian faith such as described by James.

To provide a nice dose of mystical madness to the recipe we can add the concept that only the elect among unborn sinners and mentally incapacitated sinners will be provided with the magical "get out of hell" card known as "salvific faith" whereas most other folks will just have to limp along with plain, old, garden-variety faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[d taylor]

My point is that "belief in Jesus" encompasses an intelligent understanding of the facts concerning Jesus Christ. These facts are found in the New Testament and are conveyed to an unbeliever either directly through reading it or by hearing it preached plainly.

A person who lives on an isolated island who has never heard of christianity or The God of The Bible. One day this person finds a piece of paper with the below words from a book of The Bible written on this paper. Does this person have enough information to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

A person who lives on an isolated island who has never heard of christianity or The God of The Bible. One day this person finds a piece of paper with the below words from a book of The Bible written on this paper. Does this person have enough information to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Now, we need to clarify several assumptions. The first is that the person is literate. The vast majority of people who are thus isolated are quite illiterate. The second is that the writing on the paper is in a language that the person understands. If the person only speaks and reads Telagu and the piece of paper is written in English, then it is more likely that he will use it to roll a cigarette than to read it. The third is that the individual understands basic cultural concepts embedded in the text. On an island it would be highly unlikely that there were be any tombs, for example, so the person might think that this person might have left for the store on another island and had been gone four days.

Now, if the person met the above criteria it is highly likely that he would have been exposed to Christianity at one point in their life and this might be the key to unlocking salvation for him. Perhaps a better text might be John 1, which addresses themes such as creation which are common to most cultures.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now, we need to clarify several assumptions. The first is that the person is literate. The vast majority of people who are thus isolated are quite illiterate. The second is that the writing on the paper is in a language that the person understands. If the person only speaks and reads Telagu and the piece of paper is written in English, then it is more likely that he will use it to roll a cigarette than to read it. The third is that the individual understands basic cultural concepts embedded in the text. On an island it would be highly unlikely that there were be any tombs, for example, so the person might think that this person might have left for the store on another island and had been gone four days.

Now, if the person met the above criteria it is highly likely that he would have been exposed to Christianity at one point in their life and this might be the key to unlocking salvation for him. Perhaps a better text might be John 1, which addresses themes such as creations which are common to most cultures.

While we have Scripture to show that one must be given the Gospel, we also have Scripture (Romans 1) to show that nobody has any excuse for their unbelief. They actively SUPPRESS the truth. They KNEW him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

While we have Scripture to show that one must be given the Gospel, we also have Scripture (Romans 1) to show that nobody has any excuse for their unbelief. They actively SUPPRESS the truth. They KNEW him.

Of course. All mentally incapacitated people actively SUPPRESS the truth and they all KNEW Him, as did all fetuses who were either still-born or aborted. Therefore God is perfectly just to condemn them to an eternity of incomprehensible suffering in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever.

 

[d taylor]

Now, we need to clarify several assumptions. The first is that the person is literate. The vast majority of people who are thus isolated are quite illiterate. The second is that the writing on the paper is in a language that the person understands. If the person only speaks and reads Telagu and the piece of paper is written in English, then it is more likely that he will use it to roll a cigarette than to read it. The third is that the individual understands basic cultural concepts embedded in the text. On an island it would be highly unlikely that there were be any tombs, for example, so the person might think that this person might have left for the store on another island and had been gone four days.

Now, if the person met the above criteria it is highly likely that he would have been exposed to Christianity at one point in their life and this might be the key to unlocking salvation for him. Perhaps a better text might be John 1, which addresses themes such as creation which are common to most cultures.

Believing in creation does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Believing in creation does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

No, but is quite sufficient to understand, from John 1 that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things, He is God, and that He and He alone provides salvation for His people.

I personally think that a person who reads the passage from John 11 by itself would not receive the essential knowledge in order to gain eternal life.

 

[d taylor]

No, but is quite sufficient to understand, from John 1 that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things, He is God, and that He and He alone provides salvation for His people.

I personally think that a person who reads the passage from John 11 by itself would not receive the essential knowledge in order to gain eternal life.

John 11 plainly states in these verses He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life and Jesus further states he who believes in Me shall never die. The next verse goes on to see Martha's response saying she believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is missing ?


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

John 11 plainly states in these verses He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life and Jesus further states he who believes in Me shall never die. The next verse goes on to see Martha's response saying she believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is missing ?


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Umm, any statement regarding His deity. To be certain, we understand that the Messiah (Christ) is God. We also understand that the Son of God is God. However, many monotheistic individuals, such as Jews and Muslims, fail to make the connection with the Son being also the Father or the Christ not being a great prophet.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course. All mentally incapacitated people actively SUPPRESS the truth and they all KNEW Him, as did all fetuses who were either still-born or aborted. Therefore God is perfectly just to condemn them to an eternity of incomprehensible suffering in the Lake of Fire which burns forever and ever.

Wow, first time I have seen the sarcasm font used on this site!

You really have no idea what God sees in a person. None of us do. Rebellion against God is a horror, which God mercifully has not shown us to the full extent, nor can we imagine the force of his purity. Seems a bit dangerous to be talking in such sure terms about what we can only speculate.

 

[concretecamper]

It entails a certain level of knowledge and understanding of the Person (second person of the Trinity) and work of Jesus Christ

So much for a childlike faith

 

[d taylor]

Umm, any statement regarding His deity. To be certain, we understand that the Messiah (Christ) is God. We also understand that the Son of God is God. However, many monotheistic individuals, such as Jews and Muslims, fail to make the connection with the Son being also the Father or the Christ not being a great prophet.

Ok so, in these verse Jesus still states it is belief in Him, which is what gives a person life. So the question is is belief in Jesus enough to give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life and for a person to become a permanent born again child of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok so, in these verse Jesus still states it is belief in Him, which is what gives a person life. So the question is is belief in Jesus enough to give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life and for a person to become a permanent born again child of God.

This is why I speak of, and believe in, the idea that saving faith is generated by the Spirit of God IN the person, and not by the person himself.

 

[d taylor]

This is why I speak of, and believe in, the idea that saving faith is generated by the Spirit of God IN the person, and not by the person himself.

Faith is faith there is no special faith as saving faith. What makes the faith saving is the object the faith is placed in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So much for a childlike faith

Indeed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Faith is faith there is no special faith as saving faith. What makes the faith saving is the object the faith is placed in.

The problem, of course, is that faith is a rather ephemeral concept. The reality is that there is not a single individual who does not have faith. Thus, it is not unreasonable to frame faith in Jesus Christ as being saving faith, not necessarily because it is a different form of faith, but that its object (Jesus Christ) provides salvation. The conundrum comes with those individuals whose faith in Jesus Christ differs significantly from that of others. For example, one can easily perceive that RCC faith differs from Protestant faith. One can argue that the RCC places its faith in works and in the Church, but the Protestant faith places its faith in Jesus Christ. On the other side of this equation many argue that the RCC alone contains the fulness of salvation and that Protestantism misses the mark widely. Thus, it becomes convenient for one side to embrace its faith as being "saving faith" and the other as being merely "faith", as in the faith of demons described by James in his epistle.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ok so, in these verse Jesus still states it is belief in Him, which is what gives a person life. So the question is is belief in Jesus enough to give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life and for a person to become a permanent born again child of God.

Well, it all depends on how the believer understands Jesus. For example, members of the LDS most assuredly believe in Jesus Christ. Moreover, they believe that He is (a) god. He is the second member of the Godhead - a triumvirate of three gods, among an unnumbered multitude of other gods. They believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ, which provides the means by which humanity can become gods with their own planets to rule.

Do you embrace the LDS as partakers of the same salvation as that of yourself? If not, why not?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow, first time I have seen the sarcasm font used on this site!

You really have no idea what God sees in a person. None of us do. Rebellion against God is a horror, which God mercifully has not shown us to the full extent, nor can we imagine the force of his purity. Seems a bit dangerous to be talking in such sure terms about what we can only speculate.

Well, it is probably the second time since I quoted it verbatim from your own post.

We can all jump into the mystical mist whereby we can simply say that God alone knows who He will save and if He wants to save individual sinners apart from faith in Jesus Christ, that is for Him to decide.