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How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I respectfully disagree.:)
     
  2. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement. I can explain if you wish.
     
  3. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Please do - respectfully of course.:)

    By the way - I had a Jack Russel Terrier for many years when I lived out in the country on the farm.

    What a little dynamo she was. Small furry critters and snakes lived in constant fear of her.
     
  4. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A Babylonian king destroyed Nineveh, not God. Nineveh had taken by kingdoms by force and was taken by force. People of the towns of northern Israel were taken by the Assyrians into captivity. They lost their culture after deportation. Assyrian iron arrowheads were found at Tel Hazor in northern Israel.

    People tried to blame all this warfare on God. God sent his son Jesus to teach and heal, not lead an insurrection against the chief priests and Rome. Jesus' teachings were accompanied by miracles indicating he was a prophet.
     
  5. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My "Karma' was the same. She had three encounters with skunks. It was a learning curve for her. The first was an absolute disaster, the second was bad enough but the third she killed without getting skunked.
     
  6. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The best explanation I have heard follows:

     
  7. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just a quick thought --

    "God in heaven" knows humans' hearts & minds, and so knows how they would react in various contexts... and so can accurately predict & forecast human behavior. Hence, Daniel & Revelations, transmitted to & received by the Prophets Daniel & John 2600-2000 years ago, has accurately & precisely described human history over the past two-and-a-half millennia.

    Humans do not "surprise" The LORD with "unexpected behavior".

    The LORD would have known, in advance, that Jonah could be induced to preach to the Ninevites; and that, thereby, the Ninevites could be induced to repent. The LORD sent Jonah, directly, via "outpouring of Holy Spirit". Then, Jonah got the Ninevites to repent. Ipso facto, The LORD, directly & indirectly, exercised sufficient influence in human affairs so as to wield effective sovereignty throughout the episode.

    The LORD sent Jonah. The LORD "granted repentance" through him. That repentance did not occur without (indirect) Divine Influence.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But this is not consistent with how Calvinists say how God force saves some (When He has the power to save them all) and how He enables men so as to repent.

    Jeremiah and the story of Jonah are telling you Syngerism and not Calvinism.

    Calvinism:

    God shows mercy.
    God grantes repentance by His choice.
    No possible chance for judgment because they are the Elect who are forever saved.

    Synergism:

    IF repentance == true
    THEN show mercy
    ELSE execute judgment.


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  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not saying that God did not know what was going to happen. But the threat had to be real and not fake. God had to deal with man in real time and truly mean what He said. Judgment would be coming if the Ninevites indeed did not repent. God was working based off what the Ninevites were going to do. Also, God was intervening to an extent to give the Ninevites a message of coming Judgment, and no doubt God was seeking to convict their hearts. But this was not a violation of their free will but an agreement with the message. The message would be useless if God was going to just force save people by some kind of regeneration or flipping some kind of switch inside them to be saved or regenerated. The fact of the matter is that the story of Jonah does not sound like forced regeneration that Calvinism teaches but it sounds like Synergism. That is the whole point of the thread. One can try and force a round peg into a square hole and say it is going in, but things should just naturally fit together if they are true.


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  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jonah was a real person in history. The story is true. Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. This does not sound like, God enabling people to repent (Whereby they are not held accountable for repentance). Jesus is saying that folks are going to be held accountable at the judgment for repenting or not repenting in Matthew 12:41. God is not giving some magical power to people so that they are able to repent. Everyone has the built in capacity to repent. 2 Timothy 2:25 is not talking about God enabling people so as to repent. It is talking about giving the opportunity to repent through the Message. The Message of Jesus Christ.


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  11. mike buckman

    mike buckman New Member

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    I think it does fit "Calvanism" if Calvanism is actually a thing. Its a label put on a concept.

    The story of Jonah you are straining the gnat of your own perception and swallowing the camel which is that it was a teaching to Jonah, and to future generations. God certainly knew what would happen and many of ninevah were known to god and saved from their evil ways. The fact that God deals with man on his level often does not negate the fact that God knows the beginning and the end and has destiny stored up for when the times reach their fulfillment.

    The human mind I dont think easily grasps certain realities or possibilities like the fact that choice and predestination walk hand in hand without contradiction. Both are true simultaneously, making this Calvanism you refer to the ultimate reality behind your choices.

    To speculate that God used his threat to Ninevah as a scare tactic is purely specculation based on your own predisposition and knowledge. The only thing you can think of is that it must have just been a scare tactic. Truth be told, your reasons for denying calvanistic ideas based on Jonah are purely speculative and not based in knowledge.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You are just hitting the disagree button and you are not explaining how Calvinism works in the story of Jonah. We see nowhere in this story in how it fits for God to force save the Ninevites as His chosen elect. We see nowhere in this story where God enables the Ninevites to repent. The story speaks against such things from happening because if God were to have force saved the Ninevites, then God would not need to threaten them with Judgment in them perishing. Jonah said that the city was going to be overthrown. This is what God told Jonah to say. So the Ninevites were the ones who had to respond so as to change their situation.

    The king said the following after he told the people to repent,
    "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?" (Jonah 3:9).

    So they were hoping God would accept their repentance. They were scared of God's coming and real judgment. This was not some kind of early regeneration upon their hearts happening here. For if God were to regenerate their hearts so as to repent, then the whole point of threatening them with Judgment would be useless. The Message is why they repented and not some kind of forced regeneration. These are the facts of the story if you were to follow them. The story does not allow for some kind of forced regeneration. If Calvinism's idea of forced regeneration was true, then we would see no threat or possible Judgment coming upon the city at all. God would just tell Jonah to tell the people that they are going to believe soon and worship the true God. That God was going to change their hearts by a miracle. But that is not what happened.

    There are no possibilities in Calvinism. There is only God's chosen saved elect and God's chosen damned or wicked. God chooses from the beginning those in whom He knows are saved or not saved since the beginning in Calvinism. But this is not what we see in the story of Jonah at all.


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  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    2 Samuel 24:15-16 and then consider how God sent the destroying Angel of His who destroyed 70,000 people and the told the Angel to stop destroying.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So what is the difference between 5 point vs. being a lesser point Calvinist in relation to the following things that most all Calvinists have told me before over and over again?

    (a) God decrees evil or sin.
    (a) God force saves some to be saved (When He has the power to save them all).
    (b) God force damns people.
    (c) God enables people the ability to repent.

    Do not all Calvinists agree with the majority of these above things?
    Also, if God allows for possibilities, does that really change who the Elect are that He has chosen since the founation of the world?
    You are saying that those who are Elect does not equate with salvation. I would agree. Many are called but few are chosen. But this belief is Syngerism and not Calvinism. For make your calling and your election sure is what the Scriptures say (2 Peter 1:10). Peter says if you DO these things, you shall never fall. So it is something that depends on us. It is not some kind of forced thing done upon us by God. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15). God is not going to choose for us this day in whom we will serve. It doesn't work like that.

    So far, the explanations given in this thread for the story of Jonah by Calvinists are:

    (a) There is no guarantee the Ninevites were even saved. In other words, they didn't repent.
    (b) There are possibilities in Calvinism. But I get that this is not the case in regards to salvation. God chooses His saved individuals and God chooses those who are unsaved.
    (c) God is able to threaten the Elect with Judgment all the way up until the point He chooses them to be saved.

    But if God knows all things, then why threaten the Elect? It would seem like God was double minded or had a split personality if He were to do this. If God knows they are His sheep from the beginning of time, then He would do everything He could to protect them and not threaten them. In fact, any threat of judgment would simply be a lie. If God said He was going to destroy the Ninevites and then He changed His mind, we are led to several conclusions:

    (a) Did not know (which we both know is not possible).
    (b) He was waiting for them to repent and based off that physical action in real time He was going to then not bring Judgment
    (c) God has a split personality or He was lying and He decided to later force regenerate them to repent and then He forgot somehow and noticed the change and turned away from His wrath.

    I choose option (b) in this above list.


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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  15. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    The point was you are still going on and on about God changing His mind when that didn't happen.

    Scripture does tell us that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and that it is God who grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), and there is predestination at work as plainly laid out (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:3-14). Is your theology at odds with the scriptures so that it doesn't allow harmony with those passages?
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. We do see a clear change of mind by God in the story of Jonah. God communicates through Jonah that the Ninevite city was going to be destroyed soon and yet when the Ninevites repented, God changed His mind on the destruction He was going to bring upon them originally. Your denial of these facts in the story of Jonah does not change them.

    Here we see you resorting to the standard most overused Calvinistic responses from Scripture that have been explained countless times by Synergists. What you need to do is explain the story of Jonah instead in view of Calvinism, my friend.

    Anyways, John 6:44 is not talking about drawing the lost. Verse 45 says,
    ‭‭“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45). So this is talking to the believer and not the unbeliever.

    The Calvinistic interpretation on 2 Timothy 2:25 is refuted by Jesus in Matthew 12:41 and His reference to how the Ninevites repented in Jonah 3. Jesus says the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Why will they rise up against this generation if it was God who enables people to repent? This is why this thread exists. To show you that God did not force regenerate Ninevites to get them to repent. We clearly see it was the Message that changed the Ninevites' minds because it was the threat of judgment that made them repent. So 2 Timothy 2:25 is talking about giving the opportunity to repent by hearing the Message. There is no other verse that would back up how God enables men to repent. You just have one verse read out of context in view of the rest of the testimony of Scripture.

    As for Romans 8:29-30: There is no guarantee that ALL the "called" are going to be justified. It is merely stating the order of things. Many are "called" but FEW are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Peter says make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

    As for being sealed in Ephesians 1:13-14: What is the condition of having this seal?

    "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

    So there is no Calvinism in these pieces of Scripture you have mentioned. In any event, please stick to the topic and explain the Story of Jonah in view of Calvinism. So far, you and other Calvinists here have not brought forth a believable or plausible argument.

    Thank you for your time;
    And may God bless you.


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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How does this prove Calvinism and how does it relate to the Story of Jonah?

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  18. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not a Calvinist, I just know what the scripture states, and trying to explain away scripture does you no good.

    Besides, no one can stick to the story of Jonah in the OP in view of Calvinism without showing a lack of understanding, because your premise has a flawed foundation.
     
  19. Hämmster

    Hämmster “Safeism” is the new religion. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And this is why I said you interpret wrong by using the narratives to inform you instead of the didactic. The didactic should inform you of the narratives. So the fact that even non-Calvinists are telling you that you have a poor argument should be telling.

    A little humility here would benefit you.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    di·dac·tic
    dīˈdaktik/
    adjective
    1. intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.

    So how does morality play into the story in helping the Calvinistic position within the Story of Jonah?


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