How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I'm not a Calvinist, I just know what the scripture states, and trying to explain away scripture does you no good.

Besides, no one can stick to the story of Jonah in the OP in view of Calvinism without showing a lack of understanding, because your premise has a flawed foundation.

You are not a Cavlinist and yet you use their classic verses that they use to defend Calvinism. You also did not explain that you are not pushing Calvinism until now. What exactly do you mean by the verses you posted before? What exactly were you trying to say to me before? How is your view of the verses you posted before unlike Calvinism?


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[Bible Highlighter]

To speculate that God used his threat to Ninevah as a scare tactic is purely specculation based on your own predisposition and knowledge. The only thing you can think of is that it must have just been a scare tactic. Truth be told, your reasons for denying calvanistic ideas based on Jonah are purely speculative and not based in knowledge.

The point is that if Calvinism was true, then there would have been no need to make any threats so as to get the Ninevites to repent. In addition, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus essentially says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. It sounds like they are taking the credit for their repentance because they are rising up to judge this generation for something they are not doing. So repentance is not some kind of miracle event that is given to a person by God when He feels like it.


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[Hammster]

di·dac·tic
dīˈdaktik/
adjective

1. intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.

So how does morality play into the story in helping the Calvinistic position within the Story of Jonah?


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It would help with your understanding of the nature of God, and with scripture concerning the atonement, elections, justification, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It would help with your understanding of the nature of God, and with scripture concerning the atonement, elections, justification, etc.

Instead of holding all your cards and claiming for me to study more in a certain area, it would be more convincing if you just told me WHY the story of Jonah fits into Calvinism. So far, you and nobody else here has been able to offer a convincing argument for how Calvinism fits into the Story of Jonah involving the Ninevites. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus essentially said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Now, this sounds to me like they are taking credit for their own repentance because the Ninevites are rising up against this generation for something that this generation is not doing (that they did). We clearly see in Jonah 3 that God threatened the Ninevites with destruction and yet this destruction was averted by their repentance and not by any kind of Calvinistic means. So we have TWO testimonies against Calvinism here. Matthew 12:41 and Jonah 3 (i.e. Jonah 3:1-4, and Jonah 3:10).


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[Hammster]

Instead of holding all your cards and claiming for me to study more in a certain area, it would be more convincing if you just told me WHY the story of Jonah fits into Calvinism. So far, you and nobody else here has been able to offer a convincing argument for how Calvinism fits into the Story of Jonah involving the Ninevites. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus essentially said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Now, this sounds to me like they are taking credit for their own repentance because the Ninevites are rising up against this generation for something that this generation is not doing (that they did). We clearly see in Jonah 3 that God threatened the Ninevites with destruction and yet this destruction was averted by their repentance and not by any kind of Calvinistic means. So we have TWO testimonies against Calvinism here. Matthew 12:41 and Jonah 3 (i.e. Jonah 3:1-4, and Jonah 3:10).


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I don't need to explain anything to someone who thinks God changes His mind.

 

[lesliedellow]

But this promise does not fit Calvinism. God decrees who is saved and not saved. If God declared that the Ninevites were His elect who are saved, then there should have never been any kind of Judgment against them. So this promise works for the Synergist and not for the Calvinist.

Salvation comes through hearing the Gospel and responding to it. But since men are fallen creatures, they never will respond positively, unless God remakes their herts, and then they will repent.

Prior to repentance the elect are as much under God's judgment as any other sinner.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation comes through hearing the Gospel and responding to it. But since men are fallen creatures, they never will respond positively, unless God remakes their herts, and then they will repent.

Prior to repentance the elect are as much under God's judgment as any other sinner.

No. The bride calls the reader to take of the water of life freely in Revelation 22:17. The reader can be anyone.


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[Hammster]

No. The bride calls the reader to take of the water of life freely in Revelation 22:17. The reader can be anyone.


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Hearing has various understandings in scripture. Just like see.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hearing has various understandings in scripture. Just like see.

Not sure how that helps you. The verse says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

First, the bride says, "Come" and "to take of the water of life freely." The bride is the church. The water of life is the Lord and His salvation. This is said to anyone who is reading Revelation.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Revelation 1:3).

It is an open invitation. The bride is the church and they are saying to the reader to, "Come" and "take of the water of life freely." This means it is an open invitation. For if the bride was inviting more of the bride, it would say that. But it doesn't. The "bride" merely tells the reader to "Come." "Take of the water of life freely." To make it even more obvious, the person that hears or obeys God's Word is also bidding us the reader to, "Come" "Take of the water of life FREELY." Freely. It is not free to take. It is not given only to a certain few in whom God regenerated. It says, that him that is athirst to, "Come" "Take the water of life Freely." There are people who long for spiritual peace who are sinful. They thirst for the water of life that is free.


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[Hammster]

Not sure how that helps you. The verse says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

First, the bride says, "Come" and "to take of the water of life freely." The bride is the church. The water of life is the Lord and His salvation. This is said to anyone who is reading Revelation.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Revelation 1:3).

It is an open invitation. The bride is the church and they are saying to the reader to, "Come" and "take of the water of life freely." This means it is an open invitation. For if the bride was inviting more of the bride, it would say that. But it doesn't. The "bride" merely tells the reader to "Come." "Take of the water of life freely." To make it even more obvious, the person that hears or obeys God's Word is also bidding us the reader to, "Come" "Take of the water of life FREELY." Freely. It is not free to take. It is not given only to a certain few in whom God regenerated. It says, that him that is athirst to, "Come" "Take the water of life Freely." There are people who long for spiritual peace who are sinful. They thirst for the water of life that is free.


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Again, hear has various understandings. Are you hearing what I'm saying?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The best explanation I have heard follows:"................................................."

You originally said.

We must remember, or perhaps learn, that the Book of Jonah is not to be read as a literal history. It is actually a sort of extended parable written to address a serious injustice in Israel in the decades just following the exile in Babylon.

I said I disagree that we must remember or learn any such thing about Jonah.

You supplied a fanciful story made up by a man. (Perhaps he's a theologian. I'm not familiar with him.)

Both the scripture story and the story woven by Mr. Spong's imagination are interesting reading.

One is scripture which has been given the stamp of approval by The Son of God.

The other is simply what it is - a story woven by a man to explain his opinion about the scripture having to do with Jonah.

Had you simply said that the book of Jonah may have come about in the following way which Mr. Spong has suggested - I probably would have agreed that it was an interesting idea. Then we would have left it at that.

But you said much more than that. At this stage I don't know what else to say about it than I have.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Calvin wrote a commentary on the Book of Jonah. Why not just go read it to find out what an actual Reformed theologian (arguably the most capable of them all) thought, and then come back and report what you found? Heck, don't stop with him; go to Matthew Henry, and then John Gill. That seems to me to be a much more profitable endeavor than wasting your time on this stupid board arguing with faceless icons who may or may not know what they are talking about.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So what is the difference between 5 point vs. being a lesser point Calvinist in relation to the following things that most all Calvinists have told me before over and over again?

(a) God decrees evil or sin.
(a) God force saves some to be saved (When He has the power to save them all).
(b) God force damns people.
(c) God enables people the ability to repent.

Do not all Calvinists agree with the majority of these above things?...

Most people who claim not to be a 5-point Calvinist do so based on an objection to the “limited atonement” part of the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

In Calvinism God decrees that evil and sin will take place. In Calvinism God does not author that sin . (See the Westminster Confession of Faith for a definitive statement on the subject.)

I’m not sure what the word “force” is doing in your sentence. If you mean to insinuate that Calvinism teaches that God forces men to make certain decisions (whether good or bad) rather than then making them out of their own will – that is not Calvinist doctrine. (Again – see the WCF for a definitive statement on the subject from a Calvinist viewpoint.) God has decreed that some will be saved and others will be lost according to Calvinism. But then all Christians believe that – be they Calvinists or otherwise (with the exception of universalists).

Again – your use and placement of the word force doesn’t make any sense in your sentence. See above to answer what your question may be about what Calvinists believe.

God does enable people with the ability to repent.

I should think that most Calvinists would agree with what I have said above.

Also, if God allows for possibilities, does that really change who the Elect are that He has chosen since the founation of the world?...

No.

You are saying that those who are Elect does not equate with salvation. I would agree. ...

Yes – I am saying that. Also no Calvinist believes that election equates to salvation. They are different words entirely.

It’s good that you agree with this universally held Calvinist idea.

Many are called but few are chosen. But this belief is Syngerism and not Calvinism. For make your calling and your election sure is what the Scriptures say (2 Peter 1:10). Peter says if you DO these things, you shall never fall. So it is something that depends on us. It is not some kind of forced thing done upon us by God. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15). God is not going to choose for us this day in whom we will serve. It doesn't work like that....

The giving of the ability to believe and the drawing of the elect by the Father to the Son is monergistic.

Salvation itself is synergistic. The person who receives the ability and who is drawn makes a decision to believe the gospel. He is not forced. No Calvinist believes that. That is simply a straw man created by anti-Calvinists.

Calvinists believe that God begins the good work in us and that we work out our own salvation to the extent that we yield to the Holy Spirit and walk in the good works He has prepared for us to walk in.

So far, the explanations given in this thread for the story of Jonah by Calvinists are:

(a) There is no guarantee the Ninevites were even saved. In other words, they didn't repent....

We are not given information as to the eventual eternal salvation of the Ninevites. We do have information which tells us that they were saved from physical destruction in this one instance.

(b) There are possibilities in Calvinism. But I get that this is not the case in regards to salvation. God chooses His saved individuals and God chooses those who are unsaved....

Calvinists believe that God chooses whom He will enlighten and draw to the Son from among those who deserve only His wrath (by grace you have been saved). God chooses to pass others by and leave them to the well deserved present wrath and the wrath to come.

(c) God is able to threaten the Elect with Judgment all the way up until the point He chooses them to be saved.
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Calvinists believe that God considers all men under His curse to be His enemies and vessels of wrath. That includes the elect as well before they are justified through faith. All Calvinists believe that men who are saved are saved “by grace” and “through faith”.

But if God knows all things, then why threaten the Elect? It would seem like God was double minded or had a split personality if He were to do this. If God knows they are His sheep from the beginning of time, then He would do everything He could to protect them and not threaten them. In fact, any threat of judgment would simply be a lie. If God said He was going to destroy the Ninevites and then He changed His mind, we are led to several conclusions:...

God threatens all men with the judgment to come and by so doing calls them to repentance. I have no idea why God doesn’t simply create saved people and keep them in reserve for the new world. I don’t know why He lets those who will be with Him for eternity as His children go through this situation and have to believe on Him to be saved. I don’t know why God let His Son go through all this and require faith in His Word before He could be exalted. Apparently it has to do with the fact that men fell through a lack of belief in His Word and therefore they must be saved through belief in His Word. But I don’t claim to understand it all. By the way – neither do Calvinists.

If you choose to call God a liar over and over again – go ahead on. I hope you don’t mind if I stand back a little while you do it.

(a) Did not know (which we both know is not possible).
(b) He was waiting for them to repent and based off that physical action in real time He was going to then not bring Judgment
(c) God has a split personality or He was lying and He decided to later force regenerate them to repent and then He forgot somehow and noticed the change and turned away from His wrath.
I choose option (b) in this above list. ...

Much of your posts don’t make a lot of sense.

Why don’t you, from here on, just ask what Calvinists believe?

Maybe then any disagreements you have would be based on real information and not straw men.

If you don't take to heart what I have just requested of you we will end our discussion and you can continue to beat up on your straw men.

IMO you will be the poorer for it.

Make your questions direct and short. I don’t have the time for long drawn out questions which are filled with statements along the way.

Also I have rereading my answer posts as I did with this one and finding that I have not been clear or that I misstated something.. Then I have to edit the post several times after I have rested up and revisited it etc.

Who has time for such things when the person being addressed will likely not really consider what has been written? Instead - you seem to be just looking to argue and not looking for enlightenment and truth.

Thanks!

 

[Hammster]

Calvin wrote a commentary on the Book of Jonah. Why not just go read it to find out what an actual Reformed theologian (arguably the most capable of them all) thought, and then come back and report what you found? Heck, don't stop with him; go to Matthew Henry, and then John Gill. That seems to me to be a much more profitable endeavor than wasting your time on this stupid board arguing with faceless icons who may or may not know what they are talking about.

What would he know about Calvinism?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Calvinism God decrees that evil and sin will take place.

Did God want evil to take place as a part of His divine will?
Or do you think God would have preferred man did not sin?

In Calvinism God does not author that sin . (See the Westminster Confession of Faith for a definitive statement on the subject.)

But do you not believe that free will does not exist in relation to a person accepting Christ?
That a believer needs a spiritual regeneration by God so as to respond to the Lord?
Do you believe God chooses believers based on what He sees them do in the future after He regenerates them or does God just pick believers to be saved for some unknown random reason?

I’m not sure what the word “force” is doing in your sentence. If you mean to insinuate that Calvinism teaches that God forces men to make certain decisions (whether good or bad) rather than then making them out of their own will – that is not Calvinist doctrine. (Again – see the WCF for a definitive statement on the subject from a Calvinist viewpoint.) God has decreed that some will be saved and others will be lost according to Calvinism. But then all Christians believe that – be they Calvinists or otherwise (with the exception of universalists).

God knowing the future of man's free will decision in regards to the Lord is not the same as God regenerating Totally Depraved men so that they are able to accept Christ (based on the Lord's doing). It is "Forced Salvation" because they were once wicked and depraved and could not choose the Lord of their own effort and could not repent without a regeneration from the Lord. They were changed. Salvation was forced upon the Totally Depraved individual.

God does enable people with the ability to repent.

God gives all men the natural ability to repent as a part of their physical being. God does not need to do any kind of spiritual enabling so as to get men to repent. Yes, God can convict a person of their sin, but it is still up to the individual to repent or not because they have free will to choose God or not.

Yes – I am saying that. Also no Calvinist believes that election equates to salvation. They are different words entirely.

That is not what I have heard from other Calvinists before. This is also not what I see in their writings, either. Which makes me think you do not know what your fellow Calvinists actually believe.

Here are a few quotes to give you an idea:

"It starts with man in need of salvation (Total depravity) and then gives, in the order of their occurrence, the steps God takes to save his people. He elects (Unconditional election), then he sends Jesus to atone for the sins of the elect (Limited atonement), then he irresistibly draws his people to faith (Irresistible grace), and finally works to cause them to persevere to the end (Perseverance of the saints)."

Source:
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism | Desiring God

David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas affirm,

"The elect are not only redeemed by Christ and renewed by the Spirit; they are also kept in faith by the almighty power of God. All those who are spiritually united to Christ through regeneration are eternally secure in Him. Nothing can separate them from the eternal and unchangeable love of God. They have been predestinated unto eternal glory and are therefore assured of heaven."

Calvinism | Perseverance of the Saints | John Calvin

It’s good that you agree with this universally held Calvinist idea.

No. It appears you need to check out what other Calvinists believe.

The giving of the ability to believe and the drawing of the elect by the Father to the Son is monergistic.

Salvation itself is synergistic. The person who receives the ability and who is drawn makes a decision to believe the gospel. He is not forced. No Calvinist believes that. That is simply a straw man created by anti-Calvinists.

Calvinists believe that God begins the good work in us and that we work out our own salvation to the extent that we yield to the Holy Spirit and walk in the good works He has prepared for us to walk in. We are not given information as to the eventual eternal salvation of the Ninevites. We do have information which tells us that they were saved from physical destruction in this one instance.
Calvinists believe that God chooses whom He will enlighten and draw to the Son from among those who deserve only His wrath (by grace you have been saved). God chooses to pass others by and leave them to the well deserved present wrath and the wrath to come.
Calvinists believe that God considers all men under His curse to be His enemies and vessels of wrath. That includes the elect as well before they are justified through faith. All Calvinists believe that men who are saved are saved “by grace” and “through faith”.

So God was not aware of His saved Elect before He regenerates them?
How were they in any real danger of being a vessel of wrath beforehand if God knows they are going to be regenerated by Him at a certain point in history?
But let's say God chooses to just save people randomly in real time by regenerating them. How did this play out in the Story of Jonah? Are we to assume that God regenerated the Ninevites sometime before Jonah gave his message of judgment or sometime inbetween Jonah's judgment and the repentance of the Ninevites?

If God regenerated the Ninevites before Jonah gave God's judgment, then they were in no real danger because God enabled them all whereby He coudl be assured that they would all repent. Yet, if God enabled the Ninevites sometime inbetween Jonah's judgment and the repentance of the Ninevites, then how were the Ninevites able to understand Jonah's message being in a Totally Depraved state?

God threatens all men with the judgment to come and by so doing calls them to repentance. I have no idea why God doesn’t simply create saved people and keep them in reserve for the new world. I don’t know why He lets those who will be with Him for eternity as His children go through this situation and have to believe on Him to be saved. I don’t know why God let His Son go through all this and require faith in His Word before He could be exalted. Apparently it has to do with the fact that men fell through a lack of belief in His Word and therefore they must be saved through belief in His Word. But I don’t claim to understand it all. By the way – neither do Calvinists.

Can a believer live in serious sin on some level and be saved?
Or is just having a belief on Jesus the only thing a person needs to be saved?

If you choose to call God a liar over and over again – go ahead on. I hope you don’t mind if I stand back a little while you do it.

I do not believe Calvinism is biblical; So I do not believe I am calling God a liar.

Much of your posts don’t make a lot of sense.

That is your opinion. There are many believers over the years who do enjoy and understand many of my posts.

Why don’t you, from here on, just ask what Calvinists believe?

I don't get a lot of answers from them very often.

Maybe then any disagreements you have would be based on real information and not straw men.

I have been talking with Calvinists for many years now. I think I have an idea of the core basics of what they are saying.

Anyways, I hope you understand where I am coming from.
May God's love shine upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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[TaylorSexton]

What would he know about Calvinism?

At this point, it doesn't really even matter, as our posts are being totally ignored, apparently solely for the sake of continuing this ridiculous dialogue. I am a little appalled that people actually think this is productive, as opposed to reading original sources, educating oneself from them, and forming from them educated conclusions. I swear, I have never seen a group of people less interested in speaking from an informed position as this group of people here on Christian Forums.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvin wrote a commentary on the Book of Jonah. Why not just go read it to find out what an actual Reformed theologian (arguably the most capable of them all) thought, and then come back and report what you found? Heck, don't stop with him; go to Matthew Henry, and then John Gill. That seems to me to be a much more profitable endeavor than wasting your time on this stupid board arguing with faceless icons who may or may not know what they are talking about.

I was reading Calvin's commentary on Jonah 3:1-4 and Jonah 3:10. He really does not mention a solution or any kind of apolegetic for his unknown future followers here.


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[Blade]

"Calvinism"...no offense but.. I have never seen "isms" being tossed around so much as I do here. I digress..

Jonah..wow Christ all over that. I dont see what you see. I read before and God wanted them to repent. Jonah did what God told him.. they repented and so forth so on. God made man in HIS image. Meaning one.. we can think for our selfs. God never does it for us in any way nor to believe or repent. Now SIN.. demands judgment. That is NOT Gods choice. That is something that has to happen. For me its like when God was going to judge a nation.. He looked for just ONE of them to stand in the gap so He would not have to .. but found none. God had His way.. JESUS...EVERYTHING before the world was.. was IS about Christ. This was all foretold. Think when Jesus told Nic.. about being born again... Jesus didnt understand how Nic..didnt know this. There SO MUCH in the OLD (wrong word) Testament alone.. that we still have never seen.

Its no different today. If you sin.. you will die. Sin brings death. God cared for them.. the sin they did.. if they did not repent.. they would die. But GOD can not force them. You and I have the same warning today. Jesus said.. believe in me or you will die in your sins and be lost forever (forgive me Father). We have the same choice as they did.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

At this point, it doesn't really even matter, as our posts are being totally ignored, apparently solely for the sake of continuing this ridiculous dialogue. I am a little appalled that people actually think this is productive, as opposed to reading original sources, educating oneself from them, and forming from them educated conclusions. I swear, I have never seen a group of people less interested in speaking from an informed position as this group of people here on Christian Forums.

I have talked with Calvinists for many years. I have heard all kinds of different things from them. But the main core of what they believe is that man does not have free will to accept Jesus as their Savior. It takes an enabling by God for that to happen. This is why I see it as "Forced Salvation." God does the choosing and man doesn't (in regards to salvation).


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[TaylorSexton]

I was reading Calvin's commentary on Jonah 3:1-4 and Jonah 3:10. He really does not mention a solution or any kind of apolegetic for his unknown future followers here.

Then go to the other commentaries I mentioned, or look at Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. (By the way, I don't believe that Calvin, as you said, just left the issue unaddressed; he may not have addressed it to your particular liking or satisfaction, but that is hardly the same as not even addressing it. Or, if he did truly did not address it, perhaps that's evidence that you, as many here have suggested, are reading too much into the word "relent." Perhaps what you need is a lexical study, not a theological one.)

I have talked with Calvinists for many years. I have heard all kinds of different things from them. But the main core of what they believe is that man does not have free will to accept Jesus as their Savior. It takes an enabling by God for that to happen. This is why I see it as "Forced Salvation." God does the choosing and man doesn't (in regards to salvation).

You need to read more Reformed literature rather than getting your conception of Reformed theology from nitwits on places like Christian Forums.