How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[brinny]

The problem with that argument is that God is not changing His mind, rather He's keeping a promise.

Jeremiah 18:7-8 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.

That's a PROFOUND verse. God, here, desires to show mercy and grace, which defines WHO He is, and is repeated all throughout His Word.

I have never noticed that verse. Thank you for posting it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That doesn't say any of them were saved. There's no way to know.

Jesus said the Nivevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41).

Now, why are the Ninevites rising up in judgment against this generation for not repenting if it did not really matter at the Judgment? So repentance of the Ninevites clearly dealt with salvation. For God even turned away His judgment from them.

Besides, Scripture says repentance relates to or follows salvation.

2 Corinthians 7:10 says,
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..."

Also see: Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Acts of the Apostles 3:19, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, Acts of the Apostles 17:30, Acts of the Apostles 20:21, Acts of the Apostles 26:20.


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[Bible Highlighter]

This is just conjecture to fit your narrative. Like I said, your only argument is that you disagree with His method. That's all this is.

Do you believe that a person is regenerated or saved before even hearing the gospel? Should they not be first regenerated so as to be able to hear the gospel message?

So lets say God regenerates them to hear His message, why threaten them with Judgment if they are already regenerated and soft in their heart to accept God's message of love? This lets us know that a regeneration before hearing the gospel is not enough. One needs to hear the message to change them.

Again, you are confusing the sparing of a nation with individual salvation. They aren't the same thing.

Everyone in the city repented and turned from their evil ways. But even if this was talking about the majority of Nineveh, this does not change anything. The nation of Nineveh is not like some kind of entity or creature. It is a gathering of people. They repented according ot Jesus in Matthew 12:41.

Proves nothing. He says similar things about Sodom where there was no sparing of judgment.

Not true. It disproves Calvinism because God does not decree some to be saved and others to be damned by His own hand because God destroys Sodom because of their wickedness and yet God does not destroy Nineveh because they repented of their wickedness. This repentance was not forced upon them because God would not need to bring any threat of Judgment to convince them to repent. God could have just gave them repentance (according to Calvinism). In other words, the way you describe God within Calvinism, He does not act consistent in how He should behave. He also acts in a way that strongly implies Synergism.

Again, conjecture. No proof, just opinion. Who are you to decide what means God uses is acceptable or not? You are not His judge.

I do not believe God acts like you describe Him in Calvinism.


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[S.O.J.I.A.]

not a convincing argument in that it confuses God's prescriptive will for mankind with His decretive will for creation(which includes all actions and events in time).

 

[SeventyOne]

That's a PROFOUND verse. God, here, desires to show mercy and grace, which defines WHO He is, and is repeated all throughout His Word.

I have never noticed that verse. Thank you for posting it.

It's reiterated in Jeremiah 26:3, and I know I've seen the same thought in another OT book at least one other time, but I haven't been able to locate it.

 

[brinny]

It's reiterated in Jeremiah 26:3, and I know I've seen the same thought in another OT book at least one other time, but I haven't been able to locate it.

Astounding......and then this other verse comes to mind about God saying come let us reason together....that though your sins be as scarlet.....it's about Him longing to pour out His mercy and grace...i just don't remember where it is....

There are, as you said, other verses too....i just don't remember where they are...

 

[TaylorSexton]

It would have been much better to post this in this subforum. So far as I can tell, in this entire thread you have only gotten one answer from one Calvinist. If you post it there, only Calvinists are allowed to answer.

 

[Hammster]

It would have been much better to post this in this subforum. So far as I can tell, in this entire thread you have only gotten one answer from one Calvinist. If you post it there, only Calvinists are allowed to answer.

You assume that he really wants an answer. Most likely, whatever answer a Calvinist gives won't be in line with his misunderstanding of Calvinist, and they will just be wrong.

 

[TaylorSexton]

You assume that he really wants an answer. Most likely, whatever answer a Calvinist gives won't be in line with his misunderstanding of Calvinist, and they will just be wrong.

As an administrator, are you able to move this thread? It seems like this is really posted in an inappropriate (i.e., unhelpful) place.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

There are some people who talk to you. There are others who talk at you. It pays to know the difference. The last time I wasted time crafting a thoughtful answer to this guy, all he said was, "That's just you talking."

Well, this is me not talking. Bye-bye!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

not a convincing argument in that it confuses God's prescriptive will for mankind with His decretive will for creation(which includes all actions and events in time).

Criminal investigators look for patterns in a crime scene to help them to solve the crime. This is no different with the BIble in seeking out the truth. If the god of Calvinism was true, then we would expect to see a pattern of behavior that would be consistent with that kind of behavior. The Story of Jonah is a major testimony against the god of Calvinism because it is not consistent with the behavior of the god of Calvinism as told to us by Calvinists. If God saves some people (When He has the power to save them all) and He can enable people so as to be able to repent, then we can expect to see this kind of behavior in the story of Jonah. However, on the contrary, we see the exact opposite. We see the Ninevites repent based on God threatening to destroy Nineveh. They were going to perish. But they repented and turned from their evil ways. When God seen that there was a change in the Ninevites (by their forsaking their evil ways), that is when He decided to not bring Judgment upon them. God changed His mind. This should not happen with the god of Calvinism who declares a certain select few people to be saved from the foundation of the world. No danger should have ever came near them if they were to be saved.



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[TaylorSexton]

...the god of Calvinism...

By your repeated use of this phrase, complete with the lowercase "g," are you attempting to communicate that you believe the Reformed are idolaters (and therefore not Christians)? If so, all the Reformed people watching this thread, I am sure, wish you would be frank about it and stop equivocating by couching your accusation in such a way as you are.

If you do believe such to be true, then you stand in violation of CF rules. If you do not believe such to be true, then I would suggest you make the necessary corrections to your language to make sure that you are not communicating things which you do not really believe.

 

[SeventyOne]

God changed His mind. This should not happen with the god of Calvinism who declares a certain select few people to be saved from the foundation of the world. No danger should have ever came near them if they were to be saved.



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God never changed His mind. See post #4. He kept a promise, which was a conditional expression.

Jeremiah 18:7-8 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.

Think of it as basic computer syntax, such as an IF...THEN...ELSE statement.

IF repentance == true
THEN show mercy
ELSE execute judgment

You are showing you don't even understand your own argument.

 

[Hammster]

As an administrator, are you able to move this thread? It seems like this is really posted in an inappropriate (i.e., unhelpful) place.

I could, but it's within the guidelines here.

 

[Marvin Knox]

.......the story makes no sense in the world of Calvinism. .......

Jeremiah 18:7-8 "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it."

I've pretty much read everything you've said in this thread. It seems to me that your Zeal to undermine Calvinism has driven you to say some pretty dumb things.

There's no mystery here at all.

The story makes perfect sense in light of God's promise to forgive any repentance whether it be national or individual.

He was just using a false scare tactic (Which would be dishonest)....

Was God dishonest when He told David what would happen if he kept to the same course he was on?

"Then David said, "Will the men of Keliah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the Lord said, "They will surrender you." Then David and his men about six hundred, arose and departed Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the pursuit.." 1 Samuel 23:12,13

God knows possibilities just as clearly as He knows actualities.

This manner of stating what will happen if people don't repent is hardly unique to this special story you have "discovered".

The Lord talks this way all the time. Your problem is with God and how He says things not with John Calvin or any other man.

But this promise does not fit Calvinism. God decrees who is saved and not saved. If God declared that the Ninevites were His elect who are saved, then there should have never been any kind of Judgment against them.

Calvinists believe (quite correctly) that all men, including the elect, are enemies of God and "children of wrath" up until they repent and exercise saving faith unto justification.

if they were Elect, to threaten them would be wrong because they are the eternally saved (with no wrath or judgment upon them).

Calvinists don't believe that election, in and of itself, saves anyone.

If you are going to attack Calvinists, you should at least become knowledgeable concerning their beliefs first.

...........it is a lie to preach Judgment or Wrath if God never truly intended to bring Wrath or Judgment upon the Ninevites if they were His chosen and saved Elect.

Through the preaching of His prophets, God threatens all sinners with wrath and judgment. That includes the elect to whom He will eventually extend grace.

If you want to call God a liar, go ahead on.

Again - your problem is with God and not with Calvinists.

By the way - we have no idea. But we might well see every Ninevite who was involved in that particular situation in Heaven.

Just like I was when I was threatened with damnation if I didn't change my beliefs and ways - the Ninevites may well be among the elect.

Maybe the names of the Ninevites were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world just like all the rest of the elect.

.........we would see the whole city overnight change mysteriously by God involving their wicked ways. They would just drop in the middle of their sinful acts and fall to their knees and ask God for forgiveness. But this is not what we see. We do not see Ninevites about to do something sinful and then stop midway in doing something sinful and call unto God. That is what we need to see if Calvinism's version of repentance is actually true.

Right ... and we do see that with Paul, the Philippian jailer and those who will be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 in the Book of revelation?

If Calvinism was true, the following scenario would have taken place in the story of Jonah.
Jonah comes to the city of Nineveh, and says to them, "I am here to tell you what God is going to do in you already. You are going to believe and repent and turn from your wicked ways."
There would be no mention of the Judgment. Just how they were going to believe.
God brings salvation to the Ninevites and opens their hearts.
Then the Ninevites repented and turned from their evil and wicked ways.
But that is not how things played out.
It was the reverse.

That's not the way any person who believes in election preaches the gospel. It wasn't for Jesus, Paul, me, or John Calvin.

Where are you getting these really silly things to say?

Have you even spoken with a Calvinist or read any of their literature concerning their evangelistic methods?

Either way the story makes no sense in the world of Calvinism.

Nonsense.

Festus told Paul that his great learning must have driven him mad.

Your great hatred for Calvinists has apparently done the same with you.

It appears that you feel that you have uncovered some great argument against Calvinism from the story of Jonah and Nineveh.

Although I'm not a 5-point Calvinist myself, I don't mind defending many of the beliefs which I share with them (and Jesus and Paul). I've done it with a great many anti Calvinists who have had better arguments against Calvinism than you have even considered.

Besides that - this anti Calvinist ground has been tilled so many times in this forum that it has become tedious.

If you have a question about what Calvinists believe and teach, by all means ask and learn. But don't talk about teachings you aren't even up to speed on.

 

[JIMINZ]

Criminal investigators look for patterns in a crime scene to help them to solve the crime. This is no different with the BIble in seeking out the truth. If the god of Calvinism was true, then we would expect to see a pattern of behavior that would be consistent with that kind of behavior. The Story of Jonah is a major testimony against the god of Calvinism because it is not consistent with the behavior of the god of Calvinism as told to us by Calvinists. If God saves some people (When He has the power to save them all) and He can enable people so as to be able to repent, then we can expect to see this kind of behavior in the story of Jonah. However, on the contrary, we see the exact opposite. We see the Ninevites repent based on God threatening to destroy Nineveh. They were going to perish. But they repented and turned from their evil ways. When God seen that there was a change in the Ninevites (by their forsaking their evil ways), that is when He decided to not bring Judgment upon them. God changed His mind. This should not happen with the god of Calvinism who declares a certain select few people to be saved from the foundation of the world. No danger should have ever came near them if they were to be saved.
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.
It appears to me as though you are in the same boat as Jonah.
You hate Calvinists as much as Jonah the Ninevites.

 

[ClementofA]

We are not talking about some form of chastening here.

1 Cor.5:4-5 does not use the word chastening, but given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. That could mean sickness, even death if he doesn't repent. Compare 1 Cor.11:29-32.

No. It says for God so loved the WORLD.

That obviously includes the elect, who in Jn.3:16 are threatened with "perishing" if they don't believe, just like the elect Ninevites.

Jesus is not gloating at them and saying, "Ha, ha." You can't come to me because you are not regenerated. Verse 45 is not in reference to the lost (Which would be the context of verse 29).

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45).

They asked what they needed to do, and Jesus said for them to believe. He did not say, it was not up to them.

Jn.6:29 still says believing in Jesus is the work of God, not something of man. So what is your point? We recieved the "Spirit of faith" (2 Cor.4:13), which is not of ourselves, lest any boast (Eph.2:8-10). If you did the work of believing, then you would have grounds for boasting against others who refused to believe. As opposed to it being a gift of God by grace.

 

[disciple1]

Well, lessons or spiritual truths can be made from just one verse in the Bible. You should know this just by going to church or by watching video sermons online.

Anyways, in Matthew 12:41, Jesus pointed us to Jonah 3. Jesus's lesson was one of repentance; And it was not the Calvinistic version of it. There was no enabling going on for a person to repent happening in Jonah 3. We see Jonah preach Judgment coming upon the city of Nineveh and then the king of the Ninevites telling his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (repent).
(b) Turn from their evil and wicked ways (fruits of repentance).

When God had seen the Ninevites turn from their wicked sinful ways, the Lord then did not bring Judgment upon them like He said He was going to do. In the false world of Calvinism: If God decrees some to be saved and others to not be saved, then God would not change His mind on executing wrath or judgment upon the wicked. If they are damned according to Calvinism, there is nothing to do to stop His judgment or wrath that is to come. If they were His elect (who are saved), then they should have never been in any danger of Judgment. God is not into pretending to scare us.


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Jesus's lesson was one of repentance

And this is repentance.

Matthew chapter 21
32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

 

[miknik5]

God threatened the city of Nineveh with judgment.

1 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:1-4).​

God changed His mind and He did not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when He had seen that they turned from their evil and wicked ways.

"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:10).​

While many verses refute Calvinism, these 5 verses above in Jonah 3 is the achilles heel to Calvinism. This is a major story in the Bible! Yet, Calvinists do not seem to realize what this story really says here. I am wondering: How do Calvinists explain these verses in the "Story of Jonah"?


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The men of ninevah repented at the words of Jonah

Yet ONE GREATER than Jonah has come

The story of Jonah was just a shadow and a picture pointing to the preaching of CHRIST unto repentence for the salvation of all who believe

 

[JackRT]

We must remember, or perhaps learn, that the Book of Jonah is not to be read as a literal history. It is actually a sort of extended parable written to address a serious injustice in Israel in the decades just following the exile in Babylon.