How did the universe come into existence?

[Ed1wolf]

A metaphysical law? I don't suppose you can prove that claim, can you?

The law of causality is based on another law of logic, the law of non-contradiction. The law of non-contradiction cannot be proved. Any argument offered as proof for the law would of necessity have to assume the law as part of the proof. Therefore, any direct proof of the law would end up being circular. It would beg the question. In addition, any attempt to refute the law of non-contradiction and its corollary causality, also requires one to assume the law you are trying to refute. So to sum up assuming the laws of logic to be true is the most rational assumption, to assume that some are true and some are false just because you don't like their conclusions is standing on irrational and very shaky ground.

de: This is a transcendent rhino though, not a regular rhino. Keith is a rather extraordinary fellow, you see.

Again this goes against everything we know about rhinos, and as I stated earlier, no one claims to have communicated with Keith but millions have claimed to communicated with the Christian God and those communications generally have certain similarities thereby providing much more evidence for His existence than Keith. So using the inductive reasoning, Keith's existence should be rejected.

de: No, that's not what I said. We built cars to drive them. Eyes and ears are naturally occurring though, there's no reason to believe they were designed.

No, when you say that eyes and ears are "naturally occurring" you are assuming what we are trying to prove. Imagine 1 million years from now you are an alien visiting earth, and find old cars buried in the strata of the earth, how would you know they were not naturally occurring?

de: Again, it's a nonsensical argument. Polytheism has multiple gods under a single pantheon. That's diversity and unity. Keith could have multiple personality disorder, same thing.

No, polytheistic gods are all different beings, irrespective of their single pantheon, the Christian God is only a single being and yet three different persons. This unity and diversity is part of His essence, unlike the polytheistic gods being in a single pantheon, which is just an arbitrary grouping unrelated to their essence. MPD is just that, a disorder and a pathology, yet the universe shows evidence of great order and purpose with millions of interdependent characteristics and ecosystems. It is extremely unlikely that a being with a serious mental disorder could create such a thing.

de: And regardless, just because there's a lot of stuff in the universe doesn't mean it was created by a diverse being, or designed by a being at all. Your argument is a full on non sequitur.

Your attempted refutation is a straw man, that is not my argument.

 

[Aman777]

That's a rather wild claim. Can you prove that?

Scripture, Science and History agree. God told us all about this more than 3k years ago. If one doesn't believe Him, what chance do you think I have? I enjoy discussing it because it's the Truth. God Bless you

 

[Aman777]

Yes, that is one definition, but also according to the "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament" it can mean an open expanse and tied to the word in verse 8 , "shayayim" it usually means "sky". And the separation between the waters above and below is an ancient Hebrew reference to the Troposphere. This is referring to area between the clouds above and the seas below. So I cant say "Amen" to this interpretation brother in Christ. There is no evidence biblically or scientifically that there were two separate earths or universes, one being Adams and one being ours. Also, there is no evidence that a giant piece of metal is in the bottom of that lake. Sorry bro.

Shayayim can also mean air, which would make Gen 1:1-2 read:

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God (The Trinity) created the heaven (Air) and the earth. (Ground) Gen 1:2 And the earth (ground) was without form, and void; (Dust) and darkness (death) was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved (brooded/hovered) upon the face of the waters.

Air, dust and water, which is contained within EVERYTHING made, was brought into the physical world, apart from God. Anything apart from God contains darkness, death, entropy. God brooded on the face of the waters BEFORE He spoke His first recorded words, Let there be Light.

You are trying to understand the Supreme Intelligence of Creation the same way ancient theologians did. Put ANY sold object in a bucket of water and you too will have water above and below it since that's the way water works. Scripture is telling us that Adam's world, made on the ***2nd Day*** Gen 1:8 is NOT the same as the worlds (plural) which were made the *** 3rd Day***. Gen 2:4

The metal is the bottom part of the firmament which sank when the windows on high were opened. Reminds me of a Wok. God Bless you

 

[Gene Parmesan]

It is called logical reasoning. At one time we were not sure if the laws of logic applied to outer space, but we assumed they did, which is a logical assumption, then eventually we started the space program

Most apologists and theologians indicate that Genesis speaks of a beginning that includes time and space. What sort of logical reasoning can you appeal to that doesn't include spacial or temporal elements? Those things had a beginning within our universe. How can you apply such things to something that's not this universe?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, Aristotle had Six causes. Material Cause, Formal Cause, Final Cause, Instrumental Cause, Efficient cause, and the one we are referring to Sufficient Cause. Read "Aristotle: Selections" Edited by W. D. Ross.

Actually, Aristotle posited four causes: material, final, formal, and sufficient.

The important thing to remember is that these ARE NOT LAWS, contrary to what you said.

They hold no absolute weight in an argument.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Again this goes against everything we know about rhinos, and as I stated earlier, no one claims to have communicated with Keith but millions have claimed to communicated with the Christian God and those communications generally have certain similarities thereby providing much more evidence for His existence than Keith. So using the inductive reasoning, Keith's existence should be rejected.

You're correct that communications with a god have similar features.

They're not demonstrable to anyone else.

Which makes them useless as evidence.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The law of causality is based on another law of logic, the law of non-contradiction.

No it's not....

In fact there's no such thing as the "law of causality".

The law of non-contradiction cannot be proved. Any argument offered as proof for the law would of necessity have to assume the law as part of the proof. Therefore, any direct proof of the law would end up being circular. It would beg the question. In addition, any attempt to refute the law of non-contradiction and its corollary causality, also requires one to assume the law you are trying to refute. So to sum up assuming the laws of logic to be true is the most rational assumption, to assume that some are true and some are false just because you don't like their conclusions is standing on irrational and very shaky ground.

As your basic premise is flawed, this argument is meaningless.

Again this goes against everything we know about rhinos, and as I stated earlier, no one claims to have communicated with Keith but millions have claimed to communicated with the Christian God and those communications generally have certain similarities thereby providing much more evidence for His existence than Keith. So using the inductive reasoning, Keith's existence should be rejected.

Keith is a TRANSCENDENT Rhino, not a regular rhino. And I have communicated with him. He's actually quite the prankster, all those people who thought they were talking with the Christian God (and all the other gods) were actually talking to Keith pretending to be the god of their choosing, so therefore most people on earth have actually talked with Keith, they just don't know it.

-----

Of course, I'm just having a little bit of fun with you, however it's for a good reason. I'm highlighting the problem of believing in unfalsifiable things. Every claim you make for god I can make for Keith, and I can rationalize any explanation I want to for why Keith is responsible.

The point is though, I have the exact same evidence for Keith as you do for god. My claims aren't supported by testable evidence, and neither are yours. You're just asserting god is the cause, and I'm asserting Keith is.

If you want to show god actually exists, you need to prove it. Otherwise your argument is just as strong as my Keith arguments are.

No, when you say that eyes and ears are "naturally occurring" you are assuming what we are trying to prove. Imagine 1 million years from now you are an alien visiting earth, and find old cars buried in the strata of the earth, how would you know they were not naturally occurring?

We'd have to examine if there was any way they could be produced naturally, may it be the design, the paint, etc. If there is no reasonable process that could cause the machinery to be produced by natural means, it's not unreasonable to think that it could have been designed and built. However, without proof they can't know that for sure.

With ears and eyes however, we do have a natural process that can create those structures. Not only that, but we have examples of the intermediate stages of those structures still extant in species living today. So, we have a natural explanation that we can demonstrate.

If you want to claim design and purpose, you must show there's reason to believe there is a designer, and that he created those things for a purpose.

No, polytheistic gods are all different beings, irrespective of their single pantheon, the Christian God is only a single being and yet three different persons. This unity and diversity is part of His essence, unlike the polytheistic gods being in a single pantheon, which is just an arbitrary grouping unrelated to their essence. MPD is just that, a disorder and a pathology, yet the universe shows evidence of great order and purpose with millions of interdependent characteristics and ecosystems. It is extremely unlikely that a being with a serious mental disorder could create such a thing.

Different beings working together can create things, can they not? You still haven't shown why that's a weakness for polytheism.

Likewise, people with multiple personality disorder can be organized. All three personalities can be neat freaks. Besides, you're fallaciously conflating the medical type of disorder with the disorganized definition of disorder.

Your attempted refutation is a straw man, that is not my argument.

How did I get it wrong?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Scripture, Science and History agree. God told us all about this more than 3k years ago. If one doesn't believe Him, what chance do you think I have? I enjoy discussing it because it's the Truth. God Bless you

Scripture, science and history definitely do not agree. That's the whole problem.

 

[Aman777]

Scripture, science and history definitely do not agree. That's the whole problem.

Sure they do IF you have the proper interpretation. It's proof of God since no man, more than 3k years ago, knew or could have told us SCIENTIFIC Truths which we are just now discovering. Here's an unrefutable example:

Science discovered that the FIRST life on planet Earth came from WATER.
God told us the SAME thing thousands of years ago.

Behold LUCA, the Last Universal Common Ancestor of Life on Earth ...
www.smithsonianmag.com/.../behold-luca-last-universal-common-ancestor-life-earth-...

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,

In God's time, it was the 5th Day. In man's time, it was 3.77 Billion years ago. Can anyone explain HOW men who lived thousands of years before Science, could have possibly gotten this one correct? If so, I have many many more examples from Genesis which AGREE in every way with every discovery of Science and History. Some verses tell us of future discoveries since God's Truth is the Truth in every way. God bless you

 

[Dave Ellis]

Sure they do IF you have the proper interpretation. It's proof of God since no man, more than 3k years ago, knew or could have told us SCIENTIFIC Truths which we are just now discovering. Here's an unrefutable example:

Science discovered that the FIRST life on planet Earth came from WATER.
God told us the SAME thing thousands of years ago.

Behold LUCA, the Last Universal Common Ancestor of Life on Earth ...
www.smithsonianmag.com/.../behold-luca-last-universal-common-ancestor-life-earth-...

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,

In God's time, it was the 5th Day. In man's time, it was 3.77 Billion years ago. Can anyone explain HOW men who lived thousands of years before Science, could have possibly gotten this one correct? If so, I have many many more examples from Genesis which AGREE in every way with every discovery of Science and History. Some verses tell us of future discoveries since God's Truth is the Truth in every way. God bless you

You have a 50/50 chance, either life started on land, or in the water.

I notice you left out the part about winged birds though, which is rather curious. Oddly enough, science does not say that fully developed winged birds came about at the same time as the formation of life on the planet. There's also nothing there about 5 days equalling 3.77 billion years ago, that part is simply made up without any justification.

You're trying to shoehorn what we know about the world into a bible verse that doesn't say that.

 

[Aman777]

You have a 50/50 chance, either life started on land, or in the water.

Amen, but God also told us He made a Multiverse containing at least 3 Universes/Heavens. One on the 2nd Day Gen 1:8 And other HeavenS (plural) on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 which means at least 3 Heavens/Universes were made by the 3rd Day, the SAME Day Adam's Earth was made. Gen 1:10 Today's physics agrees and their equations show that there are as many as 11 Universes within our Multiverse.

*** I notice you left out the part about winged birds though, which is rather curious. Oddly enough, science does not say that fully developed winged birds came about at the same time as the formation of life on the planet.

Good catch since neither does Genesis. Genesis is several layers deep and requires deep study. Notice that fowl or birds were made the 5th Day from water. Gen 1:21 This is important since it tells us that God (The Trinity) created and brought forth from water the fowl of the air. God ONLY creates Eternal beings which means that birds will fly in heaven.

The details of HOW these birds were FIRST made is shown in Gen 2:19 where Lord God/Jesus made them from the dust of the ground and Adam named them. Can you imagine the length of time it takes to make the common ancestors of birds from the dust like a potter shapes the clay? God doesn't tell us on which of the Billions of years, Jesus made the birds with His own Hands. He also made the beasts of the field and Eve. Gen 2:22

*** There's also nothing there about 5 days equalling 3.77 billion years ago, that part is simply made up without any justification.

Correction. It was on God's 5th Day or 3.77 billion years ago, in man's time, that the first life appeared in the water on our Earth. Gen 1:21 Scientists call that first life, the Last Universal Common Ancestor. www.smithsonianmag.com/.../behold-luca-last-universal-common-ancestor-life-earth-.It's the way God's command came to life in the water on Adam's Earth AND the present Earth. This is important since it tells us that Life will be found in Space where ever we find Liquid water. No Humans though, since there was only One Ark.

*** You're trying to shoehorn what we know about the world into a bible verse that doesn't say that.

No, I'm simply showing you that Genesis does NOT say what ancient men thought it said. Only the people of the last days have the increased knowledge of Science and History, which makes them able to understand the Supreme Intelligence of Creation. Daniel 12:4 God Bless you

 

[Dave Ellis]

Amen, but God also told us He made a Multiverse containing at least 3 Universes/Heavens. One on the 2nd Day Gen 1:8 And other HeavenS (plural) on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 which means at least 3 Heavens/Universes were made by the 3rd Day, the SAME Day Adam's Earth was made. Gen 1:10 Today's physics agrees and their equations show that there are as many as 11 Universes within our Multiverse.

*** I notice you left out the part about winged birds though, which is rather curious. Oddly enough, science does not say that fully developed winged birds came about at the same time as the formation of life on the planet.

Good catch since neither does Genesis. Genesis is several layers deep and requires deep study. Notice that fowl or birds were made the 5th Day from water. Gen 1:21 This is important since it tells us that God (The Trinity) created and brought forth from water the fowl of the air. God ONLY creates Eternal beings which means that birds will fly in heaven.

The details of HOW these birds were FIRST made is shown in Gen 2:19 where Lord God/Jesus made them from the dust of the ground and Adam named them. Can you imagine the length of time it takes to make the common ancestors of birds from the dust like a potter shapes the clay? God doesn't tell us on which of the Billions of years, Jesus made the birds with His own Hands. He also made the beasts of the field and Eve. Gen 2:22

*** There's also nothing there about 5 days equalling 3.77 billion years ago, that part is simply made up without any justification.

Correction. It was on God's 5th Day or 3.77 billion years ago, in man's time, that the first life appeared in the water on our Earth. Gen 1:21 Scientists call that first life, the Last Universal Common Ancestor. www.smithsonianmag.com/.../behold-luca-last-universal-common-ancestor-life-earth-.It's the way God's command came to life in the water on Adam's Earth AND the present Earth. This is important since it tells us that Life will be found in Space where ever we find Liquid water. No Humans though, since there was only One Ark.

*** You're trying to shoehorn what we know about the world into a bible verse that doesn't say that.

No, I'm simply showing you that Genesis does NOT say what ancient men thought it said. Only the people of the last days have the increased knowledge of Science and History, which makes them able to understand the Supreme Intelligence of Creation. Daniel 12:4 God Bless you

I don't suppose you can back any of those claims up either, eh?

 

[Aman777]

I don't suppose you can back any of those claims up either, eh?

Perhaps you should go back and notice that I support my posts with the Agreement of Scripture science and history. If you would like to try to refute my views, then post your evidence that I'm in error. Both of us will learn in the process. Please try and support your posts in the same fashion and everyone will learn of God's Truth.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Shayayim can also mean air, which would make Gen 1:1-2 read:

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God (The Trinity) created the heaven (Air) and the earth. (Ground) Gen 1:2 And the earth (ground) was without form, and void; (Dust) and darkness (death) was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved (brooded/hovered) upon the face of the waters.

Air, dust and water, which is contained within EVERYTHING made, was brought into the physical world, apart from God. Anything apart from God contains darkness, death, entropy. God brooded on the face of the waters BEFORE He spoke His first recorded words, Let there be Light.

No, everything God made was good, though not perfect contrary to some Christians belief. It was made perfect for its purpose. There is no air in stars or the sun. Those things were not brought into the physical world apart from God.

am: You are trying to understand the Supreme Intelligence of Creation the same way ancient theologians did. Put ANY sold object in a bucket of water and you too will have water above and below it since that's the way water works. Scripture is telling us that Adam's world, made on the ***2nd Day*** Gen 1:8 is NOT the same as the worlds (plural) which were made the *** 3rd Day***. Gen 2:4

There is no mention of earth in Gen 1:8. And Gen 2:4 is a summary of Gen 1. The conjunctive phrase Heavens and earth is the Hebrew way of saying Universe. Earth was created in Genesis 1:1 along with the rest of the physical earth.

am: The metal is the bottom part of the firmament which sank when the windows on high were opened. Reminds me of a Wok. God Bless you

Do you have any evidence of this?

 

[Aman777]

No, everything God made was good, though not perfect contrary to some Christians belief. It was made perfect for its purpose. There is no air in stars or the sun. Those things were not brought into the physical world apart from God.

Go here and you will find that the Sun does have an atmosphere:

info on sun's atmosphere - Google Search

*** There is no mention of earth in Gen 1:8.

Of course not since it is speaking of Adam's firmament which contained Adam's Earth inside. Adam's Earth was made the 3rd Day. Gen 1:10 and Gen 2:4

*** And Gen 2:4 is a summary of Gen 1. The conjunctive phrase Heavens and earth is the Hebrew way of saying Universe. Earth was created in Genesis 1:1 along with the rest of the physical earth.

Amen IF you are speaking of the ground without form and empty which was contaminated with death. I call it dust. IF you are speaking of a physical Earth, Adam's was made the 3rd Day. Gen 1:10 AND Gen 2:4

*** Do you have any evidence of this?

Of course. Here's a short video of the world's largest Spiral Land Mass. It's in Lake Van, Turkey, in the mountains of Ararat where God tells us the 450 ft Ark arrived. Gen 8:4 and

If you don't agree, then tell us How mindless nature produced God's superior intelligence in Apes. Adam was made with an intelligence like God's. Gen 3:22

 

[Dave Ellis]

Perhaps you should go back and notice that I support my posts with the Agreement of Scripture science and history. If you would like to try to refute my views, then post your evidence that I'm in error. Both of us will learn in the process. Please try and support your posts in the same fashion and everyone will learn of God's Truth.

You've made assertions, you haven't backed those assertions with anything demonstrable.

In fact the scientific evidence we do have flatly contradicts your assertions. How do you account for that?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Most apologists and theologians indicate that Genesis speaks of a beginning that includes time and space.

And that has been confirmed by science and the BB theory. Time and space had a definite beginning just as Genesis teaches.

gp: What sort of logical reasoning can you appeal to that doesn't include spacial or temporal elements? Those things had a beginning within our universe. How can you apply such things to something that's not this universe?

First you have yet to prove that causality cannot occur "outside" this universe, second there is evidence from research by Andrew Strominger that there is a second dimension of time. So IF causality DOES require time, God could create OUR space and time from that second time dimension.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

And that has been confirmed by science and the BB theory. Time and space had a definite beginning just as Genesis teaches.

Great. We can describe things temporally and spatially within our understanding of the finite spacetime as we understand it. Statements like "before the Big Bang" and "outside of our universe" become completely nonsense, either by an embarrassment of our language or our understanding but nonsense nonetheless.

First you have yet to prove that causality cannot occur "outside" this universe, second there is evidence from research by Andrew Strominger that there is a second dimension of time. So IF causality DOES require time, God could create OUR space and time from that second time dimension.

I have yet to prove that causality cannot occur "outside" this universe? Yeah, I'm fine with that. You cannot prove it does. So since we have no access to it and it cannot be proven I wouldn't say that appealing to such a thing is "logical reasoning" like you said.

 

[Aman777]

You've made assertions, you haven't backed those assertions with anything demonstrable.

In fact the scientific evidence we do have flatly contradicts your assertions. How do you account for that?

False, as your continued inability to refute my view shows. I haven't seen ANY evidence from you, either Scripturally, scientifically or historically. If you have ANY scientific evidence which contradicts my view, then post it. Remember, that the False ToE is NOT evidence, but instead, is the biggest lie ever forced upon our children and it is NOT Science, since it is incomplete, untrue and easily refuted. God Bless you

 

[Dave Ellis]

False, as your continued inability to refute my view shows. I haven't seen ANY evidence from you, either Scripturally, scientifically or historically. If you have ANY scientific evidence which contradicts my view, then post it. Remember, that the False ToE is NOT evidence, but instead, is the biggest lie ever forced upon our children and it is NOT Science, since it is incomplete, untrue and easily refuted. God Bless you

You haven't given me any evidence to refute, I'm not even sure what you're trying to claim is your evidence. You have a bunch of bible passages and some wild claims, that's it.

And the bible passages don't line up with what we know about the world courtesy of actual scientific research backed by actual testable evidence.