How did the universe come into existence?

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ToddNotTodd

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It is not much of an argument, they were caught red handed and they are trying to spin out of it. Why do you think there is such a concept of 'climategate'? It is because it is such a fabricated lie that it is now designated 'climategate'.

Uhhh, no they weren't. Did you even read the article, because it doesn't say that at all...

I do care about the real truth about climategate.

I seriously doubt it...

I believe the earth is getting a little warmer, but I think that it is not due to man.
A small % may be from man, but the larger % is from nature, that we can do nothing about.

What you think is immaterial. The only thing that matters is the facts.

Your hero Obama, put forth legistation that he thought would start to control global warming. It was the cap and trade legislation. All that legislation would have done is make Al Gore (another hero of yours) and Obama rich through the commission due their firm when they brokered the trade portion of cap and trade.

Conspiracy theory nonsense.

Thank goodness we have Trump as our president...

Ok, that's all I really needed to hear.

I don't think there's any point in us discussing anything anymore...
 
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Peter1000

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Thanks for the information. I was mostly curious about the non-omniscient universe-creating God you referenced. It's just a representation of God I haven't come across yet and I found it interesting. I won't take the discussion off-topic any further.
That is the topic. How did the universe come into existence. I say it came into existence by a Superior Designer who knew how to boot up a universe by using all the known forces and the elemental ratios and their relation to each other. This knowledge is capable of bringing about even a universe with all its wonders and many earths teeming with life.

This same knowledge can also destroy a universe, so it needs to be balanced with all the good attributes that our Superior Designer possess.

We can be like the Superior Designer, and create universes ourselves. We just need to understand God and His holy concepts and be ready to apply them fully, in order to be given this knowledge.

So we learn of this Superior Being, it is a worthy subject. Knowing how the universe came into existence is given along the way to becoming a Superor Being ourselves.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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That is the topic. How did the universe come into existence. I say it came into existence by a Superior Designer who knew how to boot up a universe by using all the known forces and the elemental ratios and their relation to each other.

How do you know this?
 
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Gene Parmesan

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That is the topic. How did the universe come into existence. I say it came into existence by a Superior Designer who knew how to boot up a universe by using all the known forces and the elemental ratios and their relation to each other. This knowledge is capable of bringing about even a universe with all its wonders and many earths teeming with life.

This same knowledge can also destroy a universe, so it needs to be balanced with all the good attributes that our Superior Designer possess.

We can be like the Superior Designer, and create universes ourselves. We just need to understand God and His holy concepts and be ready to apply them fully, in order to be given this knowledge.

So we learn of this Superior Being, it is a worthy subject. Knowing how the universe came into existence is given along the way to becoming a Superor Being ourselves.
Let's see if I can be clear. The God you believe in, wasn't always omniscient (all-knowing)? Not to say whether you are correct or not, but this clearly puts you at odds with the vast majority of theists on this site. I simply wanted to see if I understand you correctly when you said: "The Designer of this universe has, over billions of earth years, come to a state of omniscience." When I asked if I was understanding you correctly you said, "In short, yes." But then went on to discuss a lot of other stuff. Since so much of your post was only loosely related to the question, I just wanted to make sure I conveyed my question clearly for you.
 
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Peter1000

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Let's see if I can be clear. The God you believe in, wasn't always omniscient (all-knowing)? Not to say whether you are correct or not, but this clearly puts you at odds with the vast majority of theists on this site. I simply wanted to see if I understand you correctly when you said: "The Designer of this universe has, over billions of earth years, come to a state of omniscience." When I asked if I was understanding you correctly you said, "In short, yes." But then went on to discuss a lot of other stuff. Since so much of your post was only loosely related to the question, I just wanted to make sure I conveyed my question clearly for you.
You did and the answer is still 'yes'.
Just as important as your first question and my answer, is my statement that you can become like God too. Since our God went through a process, He has brought to us by His Son Jesus that same process. If you learn that process and do what He says, you can some day create universes too.

I am aware that I am clearly at odds with the vast majority of theists on this site. That is why I said you have to learn about the true God of the bible in order to get on the right path in order to accomplish what I have said. It is not that difficult.
 
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Gene Parmesan

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You did and the answer is still 'yes'.
Just as important as your first question and my answer, is my statement that you can become like God too. Since our God went through a process, He has brought to us by His Son Jesus that same process. If you learn that process and do what He says, you can some day create universes too.

I am aware that I am clearly at odds with the vast majority of theists on this site. That is why I said you have to learn about the true God of the bible in order to get on the right path in order to accomplish what I have said. It is not that difficult.
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Gene Parmesan

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Gods moral laws are not opinions, they are facts.
So if the moral laws are not subjective from the mind of God, then the moral law is independent of God. Which means God is not the source of morality.
 
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Peter1000

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How do you know the Bible tells true stories about a god?
If you can tell me that you know with a certainty that it tells false stories about God, then you will answer your own question.

Besides that, I have read and reread and reread the scriptures and I have prayed to God for an assurance that the scriptures are true, and I feel that God has assured me that they are true.

Besides praying for an answer, I also look for outward evidences and have come to a conclusion that there is enough of this kind of evidence to satisfy me that I am on the right path.

There is another thread of thought. It says that if God does not exist, then I do not have to worry about being good in this life because there is no existence once I die. So eat and drink and be merry and as evil or as good as you wish because there is no life after earth.

But if God does exist, and He has commanded us to do certain things, and live a good life here on earth, then I must pay attention to these things, otherwise I will fall to an uncomfortable place in the eternities of life after death.

To be sure, I choose God exists, therefore I will be good in this life to enhance my life throughout the eternities. Being good in this life also enhances my life here on earth, and I avoid hellish prisons, and addictions, and murders, and bad relations with women, that can cause bad relations with my family etc., etc., etc.

What will you choose?
 
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Gene Parmesan

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If you can tell me that you know with a certainty that it tells false stories about God, then you will answer your own question.

Besides that, I have read and reread and reread the scriptures and I have prayed to God for an assurance that the scriptures are true, and I feel that God has assured me that they are true.

Besides praying for an answer, I also look for outward evidences and have come to a conclusion that there is enough of this kind of evidence to satisfy me that I am on the right path.

There is another thread of thought. It says that if God does not exist, then I do not have to worry about being good in this life because there is no existence once I die. So eat and drink and be merry and as evil or as good as you wish because there is no life after earth.

But if God does exist, and He has commanded us to do certain things, and live a good life here on earth, then I must pay attention to these things, otherwise I will fall to an uncomfortable place in the eternities of life after death.

To be sure, I choose God exists, therefore I will be good in this life to enhance my life throughout the eternities. Being good in this life also enhances my life here on earth, and I avoid hellish prisons, and addictions, and murders, and bad relations with women, that can cause bad relations with my family etc., etc., etc.

What will you choose?
So option one is read the Bible and pray a bunch with the express purpose of assuring yourself that it is true. Option two is to consider which is a more comforting option and then CHOOSE whether to believe or not based on what the belief offers you. How isn't your post just advocating self-delusion?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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If you can tell me that you know with a certainty that it tells false stories about God, then you will answer your own question.

I do not know this. This doesn't address whether the Bible includes true stories about a god.

Besides that, I have read and reread and reread the scriptures and I have prayed to God for an assurance that the scriptures are true, and I feel that God has assured me that they are true.

People have felt like a god was speaking to them and told them to murder their children. You, presumedly, would disagree that they were actually receiving a message from a god. Therefore, I think we'd both agree that at least some "feelings" about a god speaking to someone are inaccurate.

How do you know your feelings are accurate?

Besides praying for an answer, I also look for outward evidences and have come to a conclusion that there is enough of this kind of evidence to satisfy me that I am on the right path.

Oooo, now we're getting somewhere. What evidence do you have?

There is another thread of thought. It says that if God does not exist, then I do not have to worry about being good in this life because there is no existence once I die.

That "thread of thought" can be labeled "sociopathic".

So eat and drink and be merry and as evil or as good as you wish because there is no life after earth.

I'm an atheist who doesn't want to be evil. I conclude that I'm infinitely more moral than a Christian who would do terrible things if they stopped believing.

Are you one of those people?

But if God does exist, and He has commanded us to do certain things, and live a good life here on earth, then I must pay attention to these things, otherwise I will fall to an uncomfortable place in the eternities of life after death.

It's the "if" in "if God does exist" that I'm interested in.

To be sure, I choose God exists, therefore I will be good in this life to enhance my life throughout the eternities. Being good in this life also enhances my life here on earth, and I avoid hellish prisons, and addictions, and murders, and bad relations with women, that can cause bad relations with my family etc., etc., etc.

What will you choose?

I choose being what I consider a good person without having any reason to believe that a god exists.
 
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Dave Ellis

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No, if something exists outside of human minds and exists irrespective of human feelings, desires, and opinions then it exists objectively. God's valuing of humanity exists outside the mind of humanity and irrespective of any human belief or opinion, therefore it exists objectively.

Human doesn't enter into it. For example, if an alien had certain opinions would that then become objective reality just because a human didn't think of those things?

Things that are objective exist in reality, independent of a mind, or the opinions and views of the being in question.

How do you know this? Not all humans agree with this. What about unborn humans? What about humans in a coma? That is just your subjective opinion based on your brain chemistry brought about by evolution. Stalin believed that the aristocracy and devout Christians deserved to die and be eliminated from society, his belief came from the same sources as yours, how do you know your brain chemistry is right and his is wrong?

Because Stalin's views were objectively harmful to millions of people. Taking a healthy person and killing them is by any reasonable definition harmful to that person.

Likewise, taking a sick person and making them healthy again is objectively helpful to that person, by any reasonable definition.

Morality must be taken on a case by case basis however, as some situations may involve grey areas or other weird conditions, however in general most people have a pretty similar view on right and wrong regardless of their religious views.

I am not taking credit, I am just stating historical facts.

Many Biblical Christians argued against slavery 200 years ago. Most of the leaders of women's suffrage were Christians also. Many Christians argued against segregation 50 years ago.

Many Christians also support same sex marriage, gay rights, and trans rights and have worked to further those causes. However you can't reasonably argue that the overwhelming force trying to keep those people oppressed are Christians acting on religious grounds. If you look into the history of civil rights, from slavery, to segregation to women's rights and more, you'll see a similar story.

However, now, decades in the future when those things are considered settled issues, Christians try to take all the credit. Just as they will for gay and trans rights a few decades down the road.

Here's a great video of a christian pastor proving this very point a few years ago when the gay rights issue was still at the forefront:

It's the exact same thing we're hearing now, almost word for word.

If they argue in favor of special sexual rights for gays then they will be violating orthodox Christian teaching and therefore are unlikely to actually be Christians.

What gay people choose to do in their bedroom is no business of these Christians who wish to legislate against them, therefore they should keep their noses out of other people's sexual lives.

Transgenderism is something different from homosexuality. Science has not quite determined what it is. Most of the evidence points to it being a serious mental illness similar to anorexia since the person cannot seem to recognize reality. When they look in the mirror they see the opposite sex of what they are, just like when an anorexic looks in the mirror and sees a fat version of themselves when they are actually deathly thin. But there is a chance it could be a result of the fall of humanity and a sin distorted world where someone may actually be a female spirit or soul trapped in a male body or vice versa. So how they should be treated is still in flux.

Science is pretty clear on what transgenderism is, and it's nothing like you're describing. I suggest you start getting your science info from scientific texts and not from what your pastor has to say.

We do know that over 80% of children that believe that they are the opposite sex change that believe by the time they become adults. So using surgery and hormonal treatments on children is probably wrong.

I would also generally disagree with someone doing that as well until the person in question is an adult.

No, they are contradictory. Secular humanists can classify some humans as not worth saving from death Such as the very old and very young and very disabled. They don't have an objective standard by which they can be judged and be encouraged to work toward a superior standard because they don't have an objective one.

The objective standard is human wellbeing. If you refuse to save someone from death who can be made healthy and does not wish to die, you have objectively harmed that person. If you save a person in that situation, you have helped them. That is not open to opinion, that is testable and verifiable. If they were going to die, and they are now not going to die, that is an objective improvement in their health.

It's not rocket science.

Devaluation of human life and reduction of first amendment rights to name two things. Indoctrinating of children in public schools to reject America's Christian principles.

Secular humanists don't devalue human life, nor have they reduced your first amendment rights. Try again.

They are more than just God's views on morality, they the moral standard incorporated into the universe and exist outside of human minds, thereby making them objective.

That makes no sense at all. How do you have a moral standard "incorporated into the universe", what does that even mean, and where did it come from?

Did god invent this standard, or did the standard exist independently of god?

Gods morality is based on God's objectively existing moral character. His character exists in reality outside of humanity's mind and beliefs and feelings, therefore it exists objectively.

See above
 
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Dave Ellis

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You remember the conference I believe it was in Hellsinki, when presidend Obama recieved the redicuous Nobel peace award? Then he was going to give a talk to the scentific community at Hellsinki.

What does the Nobel Peace Price have to do with science or scientific consensus? It's a political award, it has nothing at all to do with science.

As for addressing a scientific community, he was president of the united states at the time. It's his job to talk not only to scientists, but industry leaders, businessmen, religious leaders, social activists and and other number of groups. Again, the fact he won the peace prize is irrelevant to anything to do with science.

Do you remember the scandal that was uncovered at that time and kind of messed up the whole conference? It was a scandal of scientists that had fraudulently messed with the climate numbers and made them way worse than they really were. It was exposed as to how they changed numbers and laughed about it and that it was OK to lie because the whole earth was in dire straights.

Do you remember when NASA reported that the average temperature for somewhere around 2008 was up by something like 2 degrees, and this was a crises in the making.

Then a reporter found out that NASA had eliminated some northern temperature censors from the data to make the average highere than it was.

If I looked long and hard, I'm sure I could come up with a lot more examples of out of control science.

Lots of room for error when comes to millions of years old anything for evolutionary science. I'm sure you have heard of some scandals yourself, if you would admit it. Like finding a leg bone and saying lots of things about that bone that is not true. Like finding a skull of an ape and somehow making it like the skull of homonid, hundreds of thousands of years earlier than the last reported skull. Lot's of room for error.

Yeah, and guess how those mistakes and fraudulent proclamations were discovered? By other scientists showing evidence that the fraudulent and mistaken proclamations were fraudulent or mistaken.

The scientists who put out nonsense data were cut down and discredited by other scientists, that's peer review in action. Exactly how I'm saying that it works, and what you're claiming doesn't happen. Your own argument is torn to shreds by this post. If all the scientists were in on some conspiracy, then the fraudulent data would have never been exposed as fraudulent.

I rest my case.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You have chosen the only potential case of that but it is not quite what you think it is. First you have to understand that in the ancient Mideast a woman having a husband was absolutely essential unlike today because a single woman was very vulnerable. There was no police force in the ancient middle east to protect them so they needed a husband. So this is actually more a like a betrothal combined with having a maid. She works for a man that is a potential husband, but if the husband doesn't like her he can sell her back to her family. No sexual relationship is allowed during this time, as that would be fornication which was forbidden by the ancient Hebrews. Or if his son likes her, she can marry him but otherwise she goes free. Always look at the historical context of a text.

I've heard these apologetics before, and they're nonsense.

A woman in that era could have had the freedom to choose who she wants to eventually marry. Whether it goes that way, or being sold by her father, the end result is a marriage.

Stop and think about that for a second, you're trying to defend the practice of selling your daughter to another man. That should bother you, especially in a discussion regarding moral standards.

Well they probably would have begun with the jews, but yes they could have gotten people to convert by force in different ways. Ever hear of the mafia? The mafia uses different types of force and threats to get people to support and work for them against their will. But He didn't, allowing them freedom of conscience and religion.

Indeed, Christianity is no stranger to making new converts by force.

No, God cannot stop you against your will if you choose to reject Him. It is more a loving warning. A better analogy is that you are hiking in the mountains and you are heading straight toward a cliff but because of a heavy fog you don't believe the warnings of someone that lives on the mountain because you don't think you see any signs that it is a cliff. So God just lets you go off the cliff of your own free will you rejected His warnings. God cannot remove the cliff and he cannot go against your will, He cannot go against the universal law of justice because He cannot go against His own character which is being a perfectly just being.

Would a good father let his child walk off a cliff, just because the child doesn't have a full understanding of what's going on? Or would a good father grab the child's hand and explain what's what?

Assuming you pick option #2, then why wouldn't god act as any good father would?

True but the DOI is the philosophical foundation of the Constitution and it DOES mention indirectly the moral laws of the Bible as I demonstrated in my earlier post.

The declaration of independence was written by Thomas Jefferson, a man who called Christianity the most perverted system ever shone on man. He was a deist, and the god mentioned in the DOI was a deistic interpretation of god.

That being said, it's important to remember that just because some of the ideas in the DOI may line up with come christian moral teachings, doesn't mean the Christians invented the concepts, or the concepts originated from Christianity. Basically, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Only a very tiny minority. There are many atheists and secular humanists in the Establishment thereby having great power over the educational systems and major news outlets.

lol, nonsense.

Morality is more complex then you describe. Members of government have different roles. Judges and police officers can kill people without it being immoral as long as they are meteing out justice on evildoers. You and me as ordinary citizens do not have that authority. God is the judge of the universe so He has the authority to mete out justice including capital punishment. There is nothing immoral about that, in fact it is highly moral.

Capital Punishment is immoral. Doesn't matter if a judge is doing it, or god.
 
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Peter1000

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I do not know this. This doesn't address whether the Bible includes true stories about a god.



People have felt like a god was speaking to them and told them to murder their children. You, presumedly, would disagree that they were actually receiving a message from a god. Therefore, I think we'd both agree that at least some "feelings" about a god speaking to someone are inaccurate.

How do you know your feelings are accurate?



Oooo, now we're getting somewhere. What evidence do you have?



That "thread of thought" can be labeled "sociopathic".



I'm an atheist who doesn't want to be evil. I conclude that I'm infinitely more moral than a Christian who would do terrible things if they stopped believing.

Are you one of those people?



It's the "if" in "if God does exist" that I'm interested in.



I choose being what I consider a good person without having any reason to believe that a god exists.
I think what I am saying is 'you should'. You should consider that God exists and that it is He that has given us the path to take that will give us the most happiness in this world and the most eternal happiness.

In the next world, you will kick yourself for not paying more attention.

Just to put it in prospective. Our eternity could be similar to driving a Ferrari throughout eternity vs driving a broken-down volkswagan van. I for one, would like to drive the Ferrari. Much more exciting. Much more to look forward to.

Think about it.
 
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