How did satan do it?

[psalms 91]

whengod created man he gave him power and authority over everything including satan, when man fell satan took his place. that is part of what christ bought back for us. if we are in him and not in sin then we have that power and authority again.

 

[Hands Open]

You didn't read the rest of the sentence, nor the verses given. God says that in 2 Peter 3:9 that He isn't willing that any man should perish, yet who could resist the will of God if not for Him givng us a choice to resist that will?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we can resist God's will, then we can doom ourselves against that will of God's that we not perish. Romans 9:22 and 8:28 just says that no matter what circumstances evil brings about, those that love God and answer the call will be taken care of and evil will work out to good for them, eventually. God is able to restore all things - even life, as I already said. This is an assurance for those that believe in Him, but those that do not, have not that assurance.
Why do you think God created satan knowing he would become evil if it were not important that a choice be given through his representaion of everything opposite of God - God's antithesis. We do not know the powers of life and death or how to make dimensions sing together in harmony like the String or M theory projects as a unifying theorum. Without the dark contrast of evil, there would be no definition or knowing God and the glory of this existence, as Rom. 9:22 suggests. Could that be? It sure looks that way, as evil surely seems to be evident in mankind as main influence and enslaver to sin. God gave us a way out of enslavement, but those that insist on joining the dark side of evil against Him and wittingly or unwittingly become sons of their father satan, "sons of diobedience", choose to not accept the restoration and eternal life He offers. Who can fully love unless they choose to submit themselves to that love? How would we be anything other than robots without a choice to serve or rebel? The problem is choice, Neo, yet people complain about it as though they could make a universe, man, and then reveal themselves in a better way from a position of complete ignorance and powerlessness to even create a blade of grass to teach. By faith we believe this is the only way God could have created man and all things so He could enjoy fellowship and love. He risked evil in order to gain love and fellowship, IMO, and then paid the price Himself, manifesting Himself in the flesh of man, Jesus, and suffering the penalty of death, defeating evil's curse at the cross. Someday, evil is eternally seperated from God and His family, but it is never destroyed completely out of existence. Again, why? Why does it have to exist and not just be non-existent? I would say that it is the only way for all the rest to exist. The scriptures say God isn't willing for any to perish and that He pays the penalty for death Himself, yet is bound to not violate our will and choice to either become sons of God or remain under the influence of satan, in the dark. Man is responsible for a choice. Otherwise there would be no judgment.
Complaining about life and accusing God of evil isn't really honest in many cases, IMO. It is just another excuse to justify ones sins and keep them. They are so powerful in their bonds that many cannot imagine living without them and then feeling a need to justify theirselves, their only alternative to attacking that which has given them the breathe of life. Istead of speaking life and blessing with the mouth they are given by the Creator, they speak death and curses towards Him. They prefer darkness to the light because their deeds are evil, and this is what John has said, as I quote:

Joh 3:19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

This is very unfair in my eyes. Simply because I don't beleive in your God, anymore, I might add, I'm now practicing evei deeds and what's more I prefer them? This is all nonsense. I was a christian. It was then I was compelled to justify what was false.

This whole problem is surrounded by a lack of understanding in OMNIPOTENCE. You seek to justify things as they are because you never ask "could this have been better?" With your faith you spew condemnation on all who would speak for truth and label their deeds evil. Yet when you discard Mormonism as I do, you find your actions holy and right. I see and ugly dicotomy that allows you to condemn all denial of your faith as evil while you are free to deny others with impunity.

I also whole heartedly agree with you as to God not wanting anyone to perish. I couldn't fathom a God who would want that to happen to his creation. I also can't fathom a God who is all powerful not creating this world in a way in which would avoid sending those he professes to so dearly love to a hell he created himself. You may let your children learn by experience and pain because that is the facts of life in this world in which we live. But what parent wouldn't want to save their child from pain yet stil impart them with the same knowledge? This is out of our hands as people and parents. But not God's. The problem is inherent in the design. The design is his. If you say aht choice is te reason then you seem to think that God couldn't tweak that either. Yet I believe that choice would be something he created as well.

My question is again, how can you believe in a god that could have made it better but didn't?

 

[Rafael]

This is very unfair in my eyes. Simply because I don't beleive in your God, anymore, I might add, I'm now practicing evei deeds and what's more I prefer them? This is all nonsense. I was a christian. It was then I was compelled to justify what was false.

This whole problem is surrounded by a lack of understanding in OMNIPOTENCE. You seek to justify things as they are because you never ask "could this have been better?" With your faith you spew condemnation on all who would speak for truth and label their deeds evil. Yet when you discard Mormonism as I do, you find your actions holy and right. I see and ugly dicotomy that allows you to condemn all denial of your faith as evil while you are free to deny others with impunity.

I also whole heartedly agree with you as to God not wanting anyone to perish. I couldn't fathom a God who would want that to happen to his creation. I also can't fathom a God who is all powerful not creating this world in a way in which would avoid sending those he professes to so dearly love to a hell he created himself. You may let your children learn by experience and pain because that is the facts of life in this world in which we live. But what parent wouldn't want to save their child from pain yet stil impart them with the same knowledge? This is out of our hands as people and parents. But not God's. The problem is inherent in the design. The design is his. If you say aht choice is te reason then you seem to think that God couldn't tweak that either. Yet I believe that choice would be something he created as well.

My question is again, how can you believe in a god that could have made it better but didn't?

What you say is that you understand omnipotence better than God if what the Bible says is true? So you reject it for a truth that suits what you desire.
Where is it in scripture that God dearly loves those that hate Him and speak against Him? You think you can do better, but I say that is ridiculous when you cannot give life to anything.
You ask in a Christian forum for answers, but prefer to debate. That is for the aspologetics forum. I told you what the Bible says and gave the scriptures. It seems reasonable to me what God has said about the nature of man and of evil. He gives a choice, even though He knows beforehand those who are vessels of honor and destruction, causing, always, for things to work out for good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose. He can speak that way beause of omnisience, but we cannot and do not have such power. It is a simple as that. You say you do not want to justify rejection of God's provision and that it is not evil to speak of Him as unjust.....I disagree, but this really isn't the forum for debate.

Romans 2:4 Don’t you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?
5 But no, you won’t listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world,
6 will judge all people according to what they have done.
7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds.
9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.

 

[Hands Open]

What you say is that you understand omnipotence better than God if what the Bible says is true? So you reject it for a truth that suits what you desire.
Where is it in scripture that God dearly loves those that hate Him and speak against Him? You think you can do better, but I say that is ridiculous when you cannot give life to anything.
You ask in a Christian forum for answers, but prefer to debate. That is for the aspologetics forum. I told you what the Bible says and gave the scriptures. It seems reasonable to me what God has said about the nature of man and of evil. He gives a choice, even though He knows beforehand tjhose who are vessels of honor and destruction, causing, always, for things to work out for good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose. He can speak that way beause of omnisience, but we cannot and do not have such power. It is a simple as that. You say you do not want to justify rejection of God's provision and that it is not evil to speak of Him as unjust.....I disagree, but this really isn't the forum for debate.

Romans 2:4 Don’t you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?
5 But no, you won’t listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world,
6 will judge all people according to what they have done.
7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds.
9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.

I speak this way because these idea's contradict. I ask because this god cannot have all these attributes and give us this of all worlds. But fine, have it your way. Save this area so that no one can question nonsense and then make sure to stay away from apologetics forums.

 

[SolomonVII]

I speak this way because these idea's contradict. I ask because this god cannot have all these attributes and give us this of all worlds. But fine, have it your way. Save this area so that no one can question nonsense and then make sure to stay away from apologetics forums.

You flatter yourself.

 

[Hands Open]

You flatter yourself.

Do I? Do I not instead present a picture of myself as not having the answer to any proof of existance? Is it wrong to believe that no one else can know these things for certain? All we have are the documents that profess some kind of truth. Is it wrong of me then to examine these documents, these books and then show what I've found them to be? If I question the book of Mormon you'll probably be right behind me. But if I question you then somehow I've overstepped my bounds.

What I do know is that this is how it happened to me. When I was a church goer I surrounded myself with those who thought like me. If I was presented with facts I didn't like I ran back to my church and looked for any reason to believe that thses things were untrue. Nobody wants to believe that their god is false. Instead we fight and fight against what is so plain. We explain away obvious contradictions with fanciful verbage and ignore what is plain. We construct places where we cannot be challenged and then hide there professing our truths with those of like mind, never attmpting to check ourselves. I know this to be for I used to be in it. Always there when the church doors were open. Paying lipservice to the problems I encountered and then simply ignoring them.

For all you who do not like my words your distain is not for me. Save your time telling me how arrogant I am or how I simply refuse to see. I've been right there in the thick of it all. I don't pretend to say that questioning what you are told to simply believe is easy. But it is what we all must do. I simply bring the questions to where there are none. I will no longer suffer safe houses against reason. It is the realization of my very limitations that keeps me humble friend. But that which I can challenge, that which is in my grasp to question, I do. And I make my decisions according to my findings. There is no evil in this.

 

[SolomonVII]

No, you flatter yourself by thinking you can come close to touching the ideas that Raphe presented in an open debate, here there or anywhere...

Agree or disagree, the quality of the arguments and ideas put forth by him are far and above superior to anything you've written on this thread.

Nobody is hiding behind the rules of this forum. You flatter yourself to think that that is what Raphe is doing.

What Raphe posts here is often a difficult read for almost anyone. And since even the posted rules and intent of this Outreach forum are apparently beyond your ability to comprehend, it is doubtful that you will ever be able to even comprhend anything that Raphe writes here, let alone debate him in a meaningful way.

 

[Hands Open]

No, you flatter yourself by thinking you can come close to touching the ideas that Raphe presented in an open debate, here there or anywhere...

Agree or disagree, the quality of the arguments and ideas put forth by him are far and above superior to anything you've written on this thread.

Nobody is hiding behind the rules of this forum. You flatter yourself to think that that is what Raphe is doing.

What Raphe posts here is often a difficult read for almost anyone. And since even the posted rules and intent of this Outreach forum are apparently beyond your ability to comprehend, it is doubtful that you will ever be able to even comprhend anything that Raphe writes here, let alone debate him in a meaningful way.

LOL. This is getting out of hand. Who is allowed to question God? If he is too great for me then he is too great for you. The mormon god is said to be all that your god is I bet you question that one all the time. Give me an answer that doen't come from your book too by the way. You do not get to prove the book with the book.

Frankly my patience is being tried. The flattery in this thread is you on yourselves. I've been civil and met with silly indignation.

I don't attempt to become a god or even place myself on the same level as one in my questioning. I don't have to. All you give me is the same routine I see in every thread. Free will is no back gate from God's internal contradiction. And If I were to simply say that "you have not the capability of understanding" that wouldn't make me any more right. It would only make me all the more arrogant. Thankfully I'm not the one spreading that around.

If God is the creator of the universe and everything in it: then this is all his fault!

Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with!

Simple, simple ideas here people. You don't need to be a god to question omnipotence. A child gets these ideas.

By the way, I do ask for answers in a christian forum and when I get ones that are false I show them to be exaclty what they are. Call it "debate" or whatever the hell you like. But I'm waiting for an answer that actually works and until I get one I will not cease to show the false ones for that which they are.

(Now insert your insulting comment here)

 

[Rafael]

Do I? Do I not instead present a picture of myself as not having the answer to any proof of existance? Is it wrong to believe that no one else can know these things for certain? All we have are the documents that profess some kind of truth. Is it wrong of me then to examine these documents, these books and then show what I've found them to be? If I question the book of Mormon you'll probably be right behind me. But if I question you then somehow I've overstepped my bounds.

Of course it is not wrong to seek God and want answers to questions, and I never said that it was. Putting words in my mouth is not appreciated. The Bible says that if we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him. If you really want some information on the book of Mormon, comparing it to what the Bible says, here is a link:

http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm

What I do know is that this is how it happened to me. When I was a church goer I surrounded myself with those who thought like me. If I was presented with facts I didn't like I ran back to my church and looked for any reason to believe that thses things were untrue. Nobody wants to believe that their god is false. Instead we fight and fight against what is so plain. We explain away obvious contradictions with fanciful verbage and ignore what is plain. We construct places where we cannot be challenged and then hide there professing our truths with those of like mind, never attmpting to check ourselves. I know this to be for I used to be in it. Always there when the church doors were open. Paying lipservice to the problems I encountered and then simply ignoring them.

You may have done this as you claim, but assumng I would be untrue to myself in likewise fashion would be a false assumption. Not everybody would do as you have described. My search has led me to work with the handicapped and poor at a city mission group. I have never been satisfied with playing religious games, but have gone and learned about the Bible enough to hear that Jesus wants us to love and worship Him with more than lip service. The apostle Paul puts it this way:

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

Jesus said that when He returns He asks if we fed Him when hungry and clothed Him when naked or if we visited Him when sick or gave Him shelter even when He was a stranger.. So I never surrounded myself with people who would tell lies or pad themselves in comfort. I went to learn and be led to whatever work God would have a wretch as myself do as His bond servant. It is a bond of love that I would give my "self" life up to Him and let Him live through me as a servant to others. I agree that many pay lipservice to God, but that has nothing to do with what is true or untrue concerning the God of the Bible. He requires truth and not lipservice. The truth is that many will call Him Lord Lord, claiming to know Him at judgment day, but He will say that He never knew them or their lip service. Although there are many hipocrits, and we all have that potential at any time to be the instrument of satan, this does not take away from the powers of almighty God to do justice for suffering the slander of men.

For all you who do not like my words your distain is not for me. Save your time telling me how arrogant I am or how I simply refuse to see. I've been right there in the thick of it all. I don't pretend to say that questioning what you are told to simply believe is easy. But it is what we all must do. I simply bring the questions to where there are none. I will no longer suffer safe houses against reason. It is the realization of my very limitations that keeps me humble friend. But that which I can challenge, that which is in my grasp to question, I do. And I make my decisions according to my findings. There is no evil in this.

Again, you make the assumption others do not ask questions. We all have to ask questions in order to know. The arrogance of all men comes from the pride of life. we are all born with it, and it is not a personal attack to speak of the arrogance of man, as we all think that we generate the life we have when we wake up in the morning. It is God that gives us our next breathe to either speak life or death, curse or blessing. It is the fallen nature of all men, including myself when not walking in His Spirit, to be self-serving and arrogant. I have no disdain for you and am doubley guilty of as much or more sin than you, and that only inspires me to not play games with words but speak the truth in love. To give lipservice to you would be wrong and a disservice.

You brought your questions and then was offended by the answers I tried to relate to you written from God's word. I even quoted them for you from the Bible so you could see the wisdom in God's word and then meditate and ponder upon them. The answer is there, but it takes faith to believe and trust Him. In my opinon, there is very much evidence that the God of the Bible is real and has shown great love to man, but He warns of judgment and wrath to those who take Him for granted or speak evil of His gifts. If I have failed or offended you, it was not my intention.
I still think it is a simple thing to understand what God wants and how man refuses to do His will and seek their own, not being happy to give of themselves as He did as an example.

 

[Reformationist]

It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel.

I am not aware of any such teaching. Is that based on some passage of Scripture?

The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.

Yes.

My questions, are:

1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?

Do you mean "how could he do it," as in "how is was he able to do it," or do you mean "why would God let him?"

2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell.

Satan is not omniscient, omnipresent or a deity. Satan is only capable of doing that which God has empowered him to do.

How did Satan aquire so much power.

All of the power satan exerts over mankind is given to him by God for God's purposes.

Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?

I do not know what you mean by this. I understand the expression but God doesn't equip anyone with anything by means of a platter, silver or otherwise. Satan's actions serve the purpose of God, though satan is not rewarded for it because he never does anything because of a desire to serve God.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

You didn't answer my first question. and according to christian theology, Satan can be in many places at once.

There is nothing in orthodox Christianity that purports that satan can be in multiple places simultaneously. I think you are simply confused about that. Omnipresence is a divine attribute reserved only for God and is, thus, incommunicable.

When God cast Lucifer down, why didn't God destroy him? This would have prevented a lot of suffering on earth.

Suffering is only considered truly bad by those with no faith. The Lord Himself learned obedience by the things that He suffered. God did not destroy satan when He cast him down because satan unwittingly serves the purposes of God.

God bless

 

[Rafael]

You have a gift, Ref. You say it with such economy, being concise. My way is so clumbsy, that it leaves people wondering what I said......Oh well, I get an E for effort.....

 

[Reformationist]

You have a gift, Ref. You say it with such economy, being concise. My way is so clumbsy, that it leaves people wondering what I said......Oh well, I get an E for effort.....

Thank you very much. Coming from you that means a lot. Truth be told, I often have a hard time posting after you because I feel that my posts are inadequate. Then I have to remind myself that we're each at different places in our understanding and that through study the Lord can give me the gift of knowledge that you so clearly possess. After that I have to remind myself that it isn't about me so I need to stop being so self-centered.

Isn't it funny? You think you are clumsy whereas I think I'm deficient and we both think highly of the other's style of posting.

Again, thank you Raphe. It is very edifying to have someone as learned as you compliment me.

God bless

 

[Hands Open]

"If I have failed or offended you, it was not my intention."


Good, this was not my intention as well. So then we are back at square one.

Now answer this one simple question.

Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with, right?

Remember no using the book to prove the book!

This is an idea. If God created everything, then he created everything.

True of false? Oh yeah, and why? And please for simplicity sake, be brief. I will do the same.

 

[Reformationist]

Now answer this one simple question.

Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with, right?

Remember no using the book to prove the book!

This is an idea. If God created everything, then he created everything.

True of false? Oh yeah, and why? And please for simplicity sake, be brief. I will do the same.

Do you mind if anyone else addresses this? Are you simply asking if God created evil?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[SolomonVII]

...

Even IF we are given the choice to do evil then he had to create evil to begin with, right?

Remember no using the book to prove the book! ...

No. For Christian theology of all stripes, God has never been attributed with creating evil. God created a world in which it possible that his creation could choose to do evil deeds, to think evil thoughts, or to speak evil, but until the moment when we commit evil, evil exists only as a potentiality.

This is an idea. If God created everything, then he created everything.
True of false? Oh yeah, and why? And please for simplicity sake, be brief. I will do the same.

In the way that you are meaning, false. God only created a world in which evil would be possible. There is no compulsion in our choices, or even in our choice to believe. To do good, or not are both possiblities for us. To believe in God, or not, too are both possiblities for us.

In other words, the world has created as it is to give us, who are all created in God's image, the freedom that He Himself enjoys. Evil is not derived from God, who is all good, but from our abuse of our God-given gift of freedom.

 

[SolomonVII]

Frankly my patience is being tried. The flattery in this thread is you on yourselves. I've been civil and met with silly indignation.



(Now insert your insulting comment here)

ugly, spewing, nonsense...
I don't find such rhetoric as below the least bit fitting for civil discourse.

...Save this area so that no one can question nonsense and then make sure to stay away from apologetics forums.

...With your faith you spew condemnation on all who would speak for truth and label their deeds evil.

...I see and ugly dicotomy that allows you to condemn all denial of your faith as evil while you are free to deny others with impunity.

 

[Hands Open]

ugly, spewing, nonsense...
I don't find such rhetoric as below the least bit fitting for civil discourse.

Cause and effect. The words "You flatter yourself" set me off.

 

[Hands Open]

Do you mind if anyone else addresses this? Are you simply asking if God created evil?

Thanks,
God bless

Yes, please. All are welcome in this question as it effects us all.

 

[Hands Open]

...

No. For Christian theology of all stripes, God has never been attributed with creating evil. God created a world in which it possible that his creation could choose to do evil deeds, to think evil thoughts, or to speak evil, but until the moment when we commit evil, evil exists only as a potentiality.


In the way that you are meaning, false. God only created a world in which evil would be possible. There is no compulsion in our choices, or even in our choice to believe. To do good, or not are both possiblities for us. To believe in God, or not, too are both possiblities for us.

In other words, the world has created as it is to give us, who are all created in God's image, the freedom that He Himself enjoys. Evil is not derived from God, who is all good, but from our abuse of our God-given gift of freedom.

These are the answers I was expecting. First let me thank you for being brief.
Second, in order for anything to be potentially, it must first be.

In other words, things that are impossible cannot happen, potentially or actually.

Therefore we still end with a god who created evil.

I know that christian doctrine doesn't support this and it's that very contradiction that I wish to address.