How did satan do it?

[TheMainException]

woah, good question......God gives us all free will...and that means love is possible.....that's all I've learned on this subject as of yet....wow, really good questions....this is something worth learning for me......

 

[Reformationist]

I see we have reached an impass.

Possibly. That's generally what happens in discussions between believers and non-believers. If so, I just want to state that you seem to be an intelligent person and I have enjoyed the conversation thus far.

I believe that in order for evil to exist, in order for man to fall, it must be within his capability to do so.

It was.

The only one who could have made man in such a way in this faith is this faiths god.

It was.

I continue to assert that a god with all these traits should have come up with something better.

That is because you continue to believe that what you, a finite creation, believe to be better is better than what God, the infinite and sovereign Creator, has established. It's this very mindframe that led to the Fall of mankind.

"God works in mysterious ways." , "I must trust and have faith." is the answers I'm given.

Not from me.

I cannot serve nor believe in a god who uses pain to teach.

That is certainly your choice. That is not all God uses to teach but I will not say that pain and suffering are not tools that He uses to conform us to the image of His Son. Either way, we will all stand before His throne on the Day of Judgment and all of our rationalizations and excuses for failing to give the Lord His due worship will be accounted for.

You may say he uses it because that is part of our world. But I say that is only because he made it that way. I cannot believe in a god who could let this happen.

That is only because you believe that the creation deserves better than they've gotten from God. It simply isn't so. The creation owes God for everything and regularly fails to worship Him for anything.

No god who loved his children so much and could remove pain, teach in only positve ways, save everyone that he created, would make us a world where that is virtually impossible.

Again, the assumption that we have the right to rebel against God's authority to establish how life should be lived is what brought mankind to ruin in the first place. Whenever man assumes that his finite understanding of events is sufficient to determine the best course for history he is making the claim that God, the only perfect Being, has erred.

Nor can I let pass those attrocitys that are done in his name or the name of any god.

Your problem is with sinful man, not God.

I see a god who could have prevented all this. And didn't.

Again, you operate off the assumption that your limited understanding and perspective of these events and how they are used to glorify God is more comprehensive than the One who decreed that they come to pass. That is nothing but pride, which is the root of all sin.

I think in my very denial to believe I have proved my point. God knew he would create me and then give me no evidence I would believe.

With all due respect, your disbelief doesn't negate the authority of God to do with His creation as He sees fit. Your claim that God did not provide enough evidence for you to submit to Him will hold no water on the day of your judgment.

In the end Reformationist, I would like to believe you to be one of a small number of christians I have met in my journeys who I do not think capable of perverting what in lots of way is a religion that has many good ideas in it. Many ideas that I happen to agree with.

I, too, pray for that same restraint and faith Hands Open. If I have said anything that is not glorifying to God or that does not reflect the majesty of His Being then that is due to the limits of my own knowledge and ability to express the truth rather than any imperfection in Him, in whom there is no sin.

I actually have no qualms leaving this discussion at an impass with you as I see no danger in doing so.

I understand. As a disciple of God I can only encourage you to embrace the Lord and submit to His Law but that will only come to pass if it be the will of God.

My only concern and warning is, while spreading your faith to others, do not be careless. Do not let them leave with the idea that they are somehow better than others, or backed in whatever they think.
Instead of saying "God is on our side", let them leave with "Strive to be on the side of God." Maybe then I'll see less holy wars......

I will do my best. Thank you for the warning and the advice.

What I also believe is that we have many differences in what an omnipotent god should do. I don't think at this time that we'll be able to reconcile them.

Probably not.

Where you say that it is the pride of man, I say that it is the duty. We seem to split on philosophical terms.

Possibly. Just so that I'm clear, what is it that I attribute to the pride of man that you attribute to him as his duty?

For the present though I am going to let this be. There is nothing I haven't already said that is pertinent to the idea. Besides, I have much that I'm neglecting in order to spend the time in this forum and I can no longer put it on the back burner.

I understand. I thank you for some very engaging and thought provoking conversation. You are a very intelligent person who seems to have a great gift for not ostracizing people of different views.

Best of luck to you all.

Thank you.

God bless

 

[SolomonVII]

​

I understand you to be saying that God created everything, and therefore God created evil. I am stating that a distinction must be made between creating the potential for evil to occur, and actually creating evil.
We are created as moral creatures. It is we who are to be responsible for what we say and what we do.

The idea remains. Unicorns are no a potential possibility. Just as something that is red and green all over is not a possibility. in order for me to be able to do something that thing must be able to be done. This is simple enough. We must then take the next step to saying that if god created everything then he created the "potential everythings" as well. Any way you slice it, it still come down to him.

Unfortunate really, that you picked up on the potentiality of a unicorn, but not of nuclear holocaust.
While I would contend that the possiblity of a unicorn contains no logical contradiction, whereas the concept of red being green does, no matter.

As I have stated previously, I believe that the distinction between potentiality and actuality to contain no contradiction. You disagree. There is no further that we can go down this path.

​

Apparently then, to God at least, with full knowledge of the beginning and the end, creating a world in which evil would reign for a time, was nevertheless deemed ,by Him, as a worthwhile venture

.

You do realize that even though you may have rationalized it for yourself, you are admiting that God created evil. Or even if you wish to contest that, you still claim to worship a wholly good God who allows evil. Why in this context is of no consequesce. A god that loves you and can do no wrong should not be able to do this. It is this very contradiction that I wished to point out from the start.

I have given God full sovereignty and full responsibility for everything yes. At the same time, I recognize that God has made us fully capable of making moral choices, of love, of hate. I maintain that we are created of such a nature, that it is we, and not our Creator, that bears the responsibility for the evil of our choices.
Again, you disagree, so again, an impasse.

(Accusing me of rationalizing my belief adds as little to the debate as would be added if I were to accuse you of rationalizing your disbelief, or accuse you of flattering yoruself,by the way- far better to attack the message, and not the messenger, don't you think?)

Limited as we are in out knowledge and experience, we are not in a position to judge until we drink from the cup of eternity ourselves.

This quote has always scared me. I'm sure the answer most will have is that I have no understanding of faith, but that has nothing to do with my fear. There are many things in the bible that lead men to commit attrocitys like the inquisition, the crusades, and the salem witch trials. Claiming that you have found absolute truth in the one true god is a heady statement. But if just accept it at face value and don't check it to see if is indeed correct than you have commited a grave error. One that has lead, and still leads to needless deaths the world over. You must judge him to what you know as right.

How in the world did we get from my quote to the tangent of the Salem witch Trials. Your arguement appears to have gone and flown off madly in all directions!!!

Where have I claimed that I have found absolute truth??? Is this argument directed to my quote, or somebody else in your Christian past???

Certainly, I follow the lead of Raphe, whom I have grown to respect, in my insistance that we do not have absolute truth, but can only understand the truth as through a glass darkly.

I state that we are limited in our knowledge and experience, and you respond that is that my statement is scary because I am claiming absolute truth????

Wow!!!
Sometimes Christian metaphors are like inkblots. The free associations that arise from presenting them are truly mindboggling!!!


How could you possibly think that I, or Christians in general accept everything at face value?
How has the resurrection of Christ, which I was referring to, led to the needless deaths the world over?

Look, without getting into a debate over the relative good or evil of the Crusades, Inquistion, etc., etc., suffice it to say that the 20th century with the waning of religious belief, has been far and away the bloodiest, most treacherous, and most dangerous in the history of mankind. The two bloodiest regimes of all? that would be the athiest regimes of mainland China and the USSR, respectively.
In other words, whether or not we believe in the Bible any longer, the message is the same. Bottom line for believers and non-believers alike, if there is evil in this world, don't blame God. The source of the evil is not the Creator-it is you and me.

 

[m00pz`]

Satan is omnipressent?

 

[Reformationist]

Satan is omnipressent?

Of course not.

God bless

 

[Hands Open]

Jeezy friggin creezy. Can't just leave well enough alone can you?

ok.











For the last time.

​

I have given God full sovereignty and full responsibility for everything yes. At the same time, I recognize that God has made us fully capable of making moral choices, of love, of hate. I maintain that we are created of such a nature, that it is we, and not our Creator, that bears the responsibility for the evil of our choices.
Again, you disagree, so again, an impasse.

No no impass anymore. For finality sake: If you had power to change the circumastances and the level of knowledge in which we make our choices and then preceded to judge us upon our lack of rule keeping you my friend wold be at fault for creating a faulty creation and then judging them unfairly.
Now please tell me that I can't judge god and let us all fall back on faith.

How in the world did we get from my quote to the tangent of the Salem witch Trials. Your arguement appears to have gone and flown off madly in all directions!!!

Hardly. The subject is evil. Your faith is said to have many good things in it. Many ideas which I belive in. Probably more than you. I believe in thou shall not kill. Also in thou shall not judge. Also in turn the other cheek. Where I take these things as literal, yet I don't think that your christian judges or generals would agree. They probably can rationalize war and judging any way they like. Anyways, I happen to think that we could have all these ideas (as they were around before jesus anyways) naturally and then I think we have no need for a creede that also gives rise to such horrid situations by way of proof on authority.

Where have I claimed that I have found absolute truth??? Is this argument directed to my quote, or somebody else in your Christian past???

If you have some crazy idea that your god is not a god of absolutes and phrases like "alpha and omega" have no absolute truth or that god is not the absolute creator of all in this world, then you my friend are no christian. You are some silly offshoot and have no right speaking for other christians who actually believe everything the bible says as it is the uncompromised word of god. I care little for how you or one of your friends sees the world. It's not about you. It's about what you think about your creator. You believe in aboslutes because you believe in god.

I state that we are limited in our knowledge and experience, and you respond that is that my statement is scary because I am claiming absolute truth????

Hey if this is the first time you figure out that your beliefs stand on absolutes then let me be the first to show you the light.

Wow!!!
Sometimes Christian metaphors are like inkblots. The free associations that arise from presenting them are truly mindboggling!!!

Yes metaphors are that way. They are how we interpret them. So this raises a question: How do you know where the metaphors stop and the literal parts begin outside of your own simple human mind? Let me answer that. You don't. And what's better, that leaves the whole bible open.

How could you possibly think that I, or Christians in general accept everything at face value?
How has the resurrection of Christ, which I was referring to, led to the needless deaths the world over?

Actually I don't really think that you take everything literally. Most christians ignore what they don't like. But what they do like they most often take literally. Frankly the party line is that the whole bible is absolute truth. The unfallable word of god. It's not EVERYTHING you take literally that bothers me, it what. It's everything that you take literally. Now for your next comment....

Holy wars. My god says "No other gods". Then you say, "NO, MY god says no other gods" And then we have a crusade. Or how about this. My god says thou shall not suffer a witch to live. So we'll burn anyone we suspect. Hey you want a better one? How about this one: Any earthly torture that will get a man to accept christ is ok because a little pain on this earth is nothing against an eternity in hell. Welcome to the Inquisition. Belief in your christ, or any monotheistc god for that matter causes this, heck some people behaving with nothing but good intetions sometimes too, are the very reason for this type of action.

Look, without getting into a debate over the relative good or evil of the Crusades, Inquistion, etc., etc., suffice it to say that the 20th century with the waning of religious belief, has been far and away the bloodiest, most treacherous, and most dangerous in the history of mankind. The two bloodiest regimes of all? that would be the athiest regimes of mainland China and the USSR, respectively.

How funny you mention these. I'm a student of history myself. So let me remind you of something. They don't like christians either. Just like those other infidels that the crusades started with. They also have the same dogmatic way of thinking that any religion does but their religion basically was one of the state.

But the more important idea is that atheism didn't inspire more death. Technology did. If you think for one second that, if the crusaders had the power of the atomic bomb, that they wouldn't have dropped it on every infidel that they could have, (or better yet, any biological agent, so they save the city) then you're nuts friend.

In other words, whether or not we believe in the Bible any longer, the message is the same. Bottom line for believers and non-believers alike, if there is evil in this world, don't blame God. The source of the evil is not the Creator-it is you and me.

No. For believer that's the way it is. If I'm right then evil is simply here and in all truth there is no such thing, it's just what we as humans find negative to general human welfare.

But the unbelievers problem is most often, that we get threatened wih the hell of a god that we find logiacally at fault. More than that, the time don't fit the crime even if you were right! And past this, if you even dared quote the bible on me, let me say this first "Extraordinay claims need extraordinary proof" and in the end it isn't proof anyways cuz "You can't quote the book to prove the book."

So just do me a favor and get the reformationist so that I can actually have a conversation that might go somewhere.

 

[Reformationist]

So just do me a favor and get the reformationist so that I can actually have a conversation that might go somewhere.

Ummm...I'm sorry if this sounds presumptuous but, were you speaking about me?

If not I apologize. If so, what did you want to discuss?

God bless

 

[Hands Open]

Yes Reformationist I did call on you. Your numbers up.

That is because you continue to believe that what you, a finite creation, believe to be better is better than what God, the infinite and sovereign Creator, has established. It's this very mindframe that led to the Fall of mankind.

The only problem with asserting this belief of christianity is that you have no grounds upon which to say it. There is no more proof for Jesus being god than for Mohammed. To then say that we cannot view a better world simply on those ground is not rational.

About pain
That is certainly your choice. That is not all God uses to teach but I will not say that pain and suffering are not tools that He uses to conform us to the image of His Son. Either way, we will all stand before His throne on the Day of Judgment and all of our rationalizations and excuses for failing to give the Lord His due worship will be accounted for.

Again, the fact that you accept what you accept is not based on any rational explanation. It is my standing that the concept of evil was created by this god. It matters little how we may view it. The fact is that this god of absolutes would lead me to believe that to him evil is real and it is black and white. Not the relative evil I debated for the sake of debate.

That is only because you believe that the creation deserves better than they've gotten from God. It simply isn't so. The creation owes God for everything and regularly fails to worship Him for anything.

This is quite a statement to make considering your total lack of evidence. Now don't get me wrong, as an agnostic I'm not one to simply toss away the idea that there is no god period. But I am inclined to say that any god with a book and a creede is easily dismissed by simply taking time to look at it's inherent flaws. A good God and evil would be one of them. When we are forced to look at the issue in black and white then we are left with this blaring contradiction. I take the same line in dealing with mormons or jehovas witnesses.

Again, the assumption that we have the right to rebel against God's authority to establish how life should be lived is what brought mankind to ruin in the first place. Whenever man assumes that his finite understanding of events is sufficient to determine the best course for history he is making the claim that god, the only perfect Being, has erred.

This is all built upon a foundation of sand. To simply assert any gods perfection is simply not enough to say that we are not capable of questioning it.

With all due respect, your disbelief doesn't negate the authority of God to do with His creation as He sees fit. Your claim that God did not provide enough evidence for you to submit to Him will hold no water on the day of your judgment

.

This is all the same. For my part I allowed the idea that this bible god is true up until the point where he makes his contradiction. I no longer see any need to believe that he is perfect and that somehow beyond my comprehention all things will will work out.

As I've said before it's a dangerous thing to accept somethng on authority. As I've pointed out to solomon belief in a monotheistic god more often then not leads to alot of bad things happening. You may say the fault is man's but when you take a look from a perspective that has no vested intrest in this gods claims you too would come to find that there is no need for all this suffering that is caused by the belief in dogma. As I've said before I don't believe you the type to jump to any of these rash abuses of power, but you are a rare minority in this world in a more enlightened time.

But I am against the idea as a whole as I believe it to cause more suffering than it takes away.

Possibly. Just so that I'm clear, what is it that I attribute to the pride of man that you attribute to him as his duty?

To question god and think that things could have been better.





In the end I'm sure we'll still end at odds, but I want to make it clear that you stand on blind fatih. For many that is all they need but the fact remains. If you are one to need no more than that, then more power to you. But many people would not take such an intelligent view on things as you and this is where I think we'll really be parted.

Again I thank you for you time.

 

[Idicious]

It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel. The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.

My questions, are:

1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?

2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell. How did Satan aquire so much power. Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?

Satan isn't omnipresent, he isn't alknowing, and we are the ones who turn away from god and condemn ourselves into the pits of hell as you put it Satan has very little power, he can't create evil, he can only manipulate. It's aparent god gave the angels free will since a third followed satan. You could then also ask the question why would god create us if he knew we'd turn against him?

Just my opinion.

 

[jehovahway]

It is my understanding that in christian theology, Satan was once the highest angel. The story goes, Lucifer in his arrogance decided to rebel against god and was defeated and then cast into a bottomless pit.

My questions, are:

1. How could Lucifer rebel against God if God knew the future before Lucifer was even created?

2. How did Lucifer go from being an Angel cast into a bottomless pit to being an omnicient, omnipressent psuedo-deity capable of swaying gods children into the pits of hell. How did Satan aquire so much power. Did god just hand the power over to Satan on a silver platter?

God allready new what Satan would do before he ever created him.
We haft to under stand God is working out future of our lives and he uses satan along with other things to bring
about his end results
Even at this very min God has bound at the river where usa
service men are 4 of Satans most powerful Angels that are
evil from the word go.
They will be release at Jesus Christ return to join satan to
try to stop THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS from
taking over the earth that now belongs to Jesus Christ.

 

[Idicious]

God allready new what Satan would do before he ever created him.
We haft to under stand God is working out future of our lives and he uses satan along with other things to bring
about his end results
Even at this very min God has bound at the river where usa
service men are 4 of Satans most powerful Angels that are
evil from the word go.
They will be release at Jesus Christ return to join satan to
try to stop THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS from
taking over the earth that now belongs to Jesus Christ.

Umm, I didn't completely understand that post, could you explain please?

 

[Reformationist]

Hands Open, while I understand your need to have tangible proof of the existance of Christ and the miracles He performed I cannot give you those. I am not a student of history so I could not personally provide you with verifiable testimony from that time period, though I'm sure it exists. The problem is, the majority of verifiable and credible written accounts of history were compiled by the Church and, unfortunately, I doubt that you will acknowledge those as trustworthy.

In the end, I am not one of those Christians that thinks anything productive comes of trying to convince someone of the truth of the Gospel, for that is neither my charge nor is it in my power. I am merely commanded to share the good news of the Gospel and I would be happy to do that if you are interested.

In the meantime, I will merely enlighten you to the fact that this is not a debate forum. If you wish to debate this topic then you may want to ask one of the mods to move this the General Apologetics forum.

I pray the Lord blesses you and gives you faith in Him.

God bless

 

[Bradford]

*** MOD HAT ***


2 points of order:

1) NO FLAMING! Do not insult or belittle anyone, regardless of belief.

2) This is not General Theology or General Apologetics. Please do not debate in this thread. Non-Christians are reminded that they are not allowed to answer questions in this forum, as well.

*** MOD HAT ***

 

[Hands Open]

In the meantime, I will merely enlighten you to the fact that this is not a debate forum. If you wish to debate this topic then you may want to ask one of the mods to move this the General Apologetics forum.

This whole place is debateable...

 

[Reformationist]

This whole place is debateable...

I hope that you understand that this is a quick way to cause people to lack any desire to spend any time explaining their views to you. Not only are your last few posts clearly ill intentioned, they are in violation of the forum rules. The fact of the matter is, James H did not post this thread in a debate forum. Therefore, the rules dictate that, aside from further questions (of a non-debate nature), only Christians are allowed to respond to posts in this thread. If you have a problem with that then I suggest you take it up with the webmaster, Erwin.

Otherwise, it doesn't seem to be the right way to approach this issue by destroying the validity of the posts that you've made that are well thought out by having a bad attitude and insulting the people you were asking to discuss these issues with you.

God bless

 

[MinDach]

but I want to make it clear that you stand on blind fatih

Who is really blind, is it the person who has eye's to see, but choose not too, or is it a blind person who see every thing? We stand on faith, but we have all of history to stand behind us.