How could you tell?

[Naoacreditomais]

Yes It is.... and if God is doing it ,we are in terrible situation.I just learned that I can't post in this thread as I consider myself a ex christian from now on .

 

[HitchSlap]

is lying bad?

Yes.

 

[discipulus]

Yes It is.... and if God is doing it ,we are in terrible situation.I just learned that I can't post in this thread as I consider myself a ex christian from now on .

why is lying bad?

 

[discipulus]

Yes.

why?

 

[super animator]

This has become less of a philosophical and more of a ethics and mortality discussion, can you post that question in it's appropriate place.

 

[discipulus]

This has become less of a philosophical and more of a ethics and mortality discussion, can you post that question in it's appropriate place.

its not a mortality discussion at all, we are not talking about death here.

and yes it is a philosophical question. We are talking about the ONTOLOGY of certain moral judgments.

as such it falls in philosophy.

 

[HitchSlap]

why is lying bad?

Society and relationships tend to work best when we are truthful in our dealings. But you're a theist, and this in only my opinion, so feel free to keep lying.

 

[discipulus]

Society and relationships tend to work best when we are truthful in our dealings.

That does not tell me why lying is bad though. Why should anyone care about how society and relationships work? You might, but so what? Thats your opinion.

But you're a theist, and this in only my opinion, so feel free to keep lying.

Now youve got it!

 

[HitchSlap]

That does not tell me why lying is bad though. Why should anyone care about how society and relationships work? You might, but so what? Thats your opinion.





Now youve got it!

Yes, it's my opinion that society works better when we don't lie. I understand however, that your heavenly daddy likes it when you lie, though. Maybe someday you'll discover how to reason yourself to a better opinion.

 

[discipulus]

Yes, it's my opinion that society works better when we don't lie. I understand however, that your heavenly daddy likes it when you lie, though. Maybe someday you'll discover how to reason yourself to a better opinion.

but you have yet to explain why lying is bad?

What is bad?

Should I feel guilty when doing something bad?

Why?

What does it ultimately matter?

 

[HitchSlap]

but you have yet to explain why lying is bad?

What is bad?

Should I feel guilty when doing something bad?

Why?

What does it ultimately matter?

If you're having difficulty understanding the definition of "bad," I suggest you ask your mom. A society in which we have some sort of implied trust and cohesion is better than one without. Yes, you should feel guilty when you do something bad. Evolution has evolved a sense of right and wrong, as our survival depends on it. Give yourself some credit, you should be able to figure out why lying is "bad" without a sky daddy telling you it's "bad."

 

[discipulus]

If you're having difficulty understanding the definition of "bad," I suggest you ask your mom.

We all actually have the same mom to be technical, being evolved and all from one common ancestor, but I digress....

A society in which we have some sort of implied trust and cohesion is better than one without.

Better????? Better????

Better is completely relative and while I understand that is your opinion, it does not tell me why I should share the same opinion.

Yes, you should feel guilty when you do something bad. Evolution has evolved a sense of right and wrong, as our survival depends on it.

My survival depends on me eating, sleeping, and having shelter i.e. doing the necessities of life. Being honest is not something I need to survive. You might need that but that is not something I need. I can survive and actually live a very comfortable selfish self centered life just fine by lying and stealing from honest men like yourself, speaking atheistically of course.

Evolution has deemed it fit for me to lack that quality which it deemed you needed.

Blame evolution, not me. I simply dance to my dna.....remember?

Give yourself some credit, you should be able to figure out why lying is "bad" without a sky daddy telling you it's "bad."

I know you are a moral objectivist, but you still have not told me why lying is objectively wrong.

Seems you want to be like Craig and argue objective moral values and duties exist.

No??

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You are not a relativist?

If not then what are you?

You've missed the forest for the trees. My point was that no one on here is a relativist, especially not of the kind you describe, except maybe you, which is ironic.

The "in circles" tag is entirely appropriate for this thread because, no matter how many times it is explained to you that atheism is not equivalent to moral relativism or nihilism, you continue to beat this poor dead horse into the ground.

What's worse is that you thought you could get away with it by creating a sock account, expecting that no one would recognise your hollow claim that you're here to "learn".

Does honesty matter? I think it does. You could make a juvenile retort along the lines of "That's just your opinion man!" Even if that were true, the difference between you and I would be that I could successfully argue for my "opinion", giving reasons for why I believe it.

Since honesty is tied to credibility anyone who cares about their credibility as a source of insight to others will make at least some effort to be honest. If you don't share that "opinion", if you don't care about your credibility, then what more can I do? I'm not obligated to bow down respectfully and declare "You're right. It's just my opinion. Carry on being dishonest. It won't affect your credibility in the slightest." I'd be dishonest myself if I said that.

 

[discipulus]

You've missed the forest for the trees.

Your opinion....go on...

My point was that no one on here is a relativist, especially not of the kind you describe, except maybe you, which is ironic.

Can you speak for every member of this forum? You can speak for yourself surely.

You cannot speak for me, for speaking atheistically, I can be whatever I want to be whenever I want to be it. Right now I want to be a relativist.

The "in circles" tag is entirely appropriate for this thread because, no matter how many times it is explained to you that atheism is not equivalent to moral relativism or nihilism, you continue to beat this poor dead horse into the ground.

That is your opinion. Some may agree. Some may disagree.

I am simply speaking as a cosmic orphan made of a fleshy bag of blood, water, muscle, and fat.

What's worse is that you thought you could get away with it by creating a sock account, expecting that no one would recognise your hollow claim that you're here to "learn".

whatever that is, it is worse in your opinion. Others may agree. Many may disagree.

You may think horseradish sauce is worse tasting than bbq sauce.

Does honesty matter? I think it does.

Great! Many agree. Many disagree.

You could make a juvenile retort along the lines of "That's just your opinion man!"

It being juvenile would be your opinion. Others would agree. Others would disagree.

Even if that were true, the difference between you and I would be that I could successfully argue for my "opinion", giving reasons for why I believe it.

That is great. If that is how you find meaning in life, more power to you.

Me personally speaking atheistically, I can just say what I want without giving a reason and still at the end of the day we are still both fleshy bags of blood and guts that will soon be worm dust.

Since honesty is tied to credibility anyone who cares about their credibility as a source of insight to others will make at least some effort to be honest.

Maybe people do not want to be credible. Maybe you do. Its all preference.

If you don't share that "opinion", if you don't care about your credibility, then what more can I do?

Keep talking and trying to persuade me that you are right and I am wrong.

Something you will not be able to accomplish. But you can try!

I'm not obligated to bow down respectfully and declare "You're right. It's just my opinion. Carry on being dishonest. It won't affect your credibility in the slightest." I'd be dishonest myself if I said that.

That is wonderful! I actually do not want you to bow down. I think you should hold your head high and march through life living however you want....speaking atheistically of course....because after all...who is there to judge or condemn you?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your opinion....go on...




Can you speak for every member of this forum? You can speak for yourself surely.

You cannot speak for me, for speaking atheistically, I can be whatever I want to be whenever I want to be it. Right now I want to be a relativist.



That is your opinion. Some may agree. Some may disagree.

I am simply speaking as a cosmic orphan made of a fleshy bag of blood, water, muscle, and fat.



whatever that is, it is worse in your opinion. Others may agree. Many may disagree.

You may think horseradish sauce is worse tasting than bbq sauce.



Great! Many agree. Many disagree.




It being juvenile would be your opinion. Others would agree. Others would disagree.



That is great. If that is how you find meaning in life, more power to you.

Me personally speaking atheistically, I can just say what I want without giving a reason and still at the end of the day we are still both fleshy bags of blood and guts that will soon be worm dust.



Maybe people do not want to be credible. Maybe you do. Its all preference.



Keep talking and trying to persuade me that you are right and I am wrong.

Something you will not be able to accomplish. But you can try!




That is wonderful! I actually do not want you to bow down. I think you should hold your head high and march through life living however you want....speaking atheistically of course....because after all...who is there to judge or condemn you?

Sure, you can be a relativist contrarian if you wish, and I can dismiss you as such. The key difference is that I can justify having dismissed you. I can mount an argument for my "opinion" of your credibility (or lack there of). You can't, which makes this endeavour pointless for you.

 

[Tnmusicman]

No they won't. They'll tell you that atheism is simply the lack of belief in god. If you can't even get this simple definition straight, why should we accept your assertions about what Real Atheists(tm) must believe?
[/COLOR]

Dude, I don't care how you want to redefine it. I accept the definition that has green accepted for a loooong time and what most dictionaries will say as well. Amazingly enough the atheist that runs evil bible dot com will tell you lack of belief is nonsense! Pretty sad when atheists disagree with you about definitions.
http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_1.htm
Btw, when its just you and your atheist buddies do you sit around and discuss "lack of belief" ?? Probably not. It's funny because this is just a stupid word game. We all know if you self define as atheist that means you don't believe in God. Yeah ,sure if evidence presents itself I'm quite sure you would change your mind just like that,right? But, at the end of the day if you identify as atheist you don't believe in God, otherwise you would define as agnostic. Yeah, sure gnostic deals with blah blah--

 

[discipulus]

Sure, you can be a relativist contrarian if you wish, and I can dismiss you as such. The key difference is that I can justify having dismissed you. I can mount an argument for my "opinion" of your credibility (or lack there of). You can't, which makes this endeavour pointless for you.

I am being, for the moment, a simple atheist. I am taking the theory of evolution by natural selection combined with the absence of a transcendent moral arbiter, combined with the finality of the cessation of biological life, combined with the fact that I determine what is meaningful, good and bad and simply speaking in light of the above.

You can label me what you wish. I would simply rather be called an atheist.

Argument or not, I do not think atheism is something that has to be "defended". It is simply the lack of belief in gods or God.

 

[Tnmusicman]

Right, whatever one sets out to do within the limits of one's nature. Which makes you omnipotent.

No it doesn't ! I can't set out to fly and do it. I want to do it but i cant. God could. Theres nothing contradictory about flying and Gods nature. There is something contradictory about God lying. I'm not omnipotent and that's silly to suggest.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I am being, for the moment, a simple atheist.

No, you're being a strawman atheist.

I am taking the theory of evolution by natural selection combined with the absence of a transcendent moral arbiter, combined with the finality of the cessation of biological life, combined with the fact that I determine what is meaningful, good and bad and simply speaking in light of the above.

You can label me what you wish. I would simply rather be called an atheist.

Argument or not, I do not think atheism is something that has to be "defended". It is simply the lack of belief in gods or God.

That last sentence is accurate. The rest is simply part of the strawman atheist you've constructed for the purpose of this conversation.

If you really want to be consistent with the spirit of your strawman atheist, then you must acknowledge that your opinion (that no opinions or facts really matter) includes that opinion itself, which raises the question of why you are defending that opinion when, according to your reasoning, it is ultimately indefensible and immaterial.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No it doesn't ! I can't set out to fly and do it. I want to do it but i cant. God could.

You can't because it's not in your nature to fly.

Theres nothing contradictory about flying and Gods nature. There is something contradictory about God lying.

How do you know that? Maybe it is in God's nature to deceive. How would you know?

I'm not omnipotent and that's silly to suggest.

By your own definition of the word, so long as it is "within your nature", you are omnipotent.