How could you tell?

[JGG]

Geez, I even underlined it and you still missed it . True meaning of omnipotent is the ability to do whatever one sets out to do. This is the biblical understanding of omnipotent.

But you recognize that the word was redefined, by us, so the word fit the concept of god we wanted.

We could have said that omnipotent means really, really big in order to make the wotd apply.

 

[Tnmusicman]

Excellent!




Excellent. And many agree with you. Many do not.

Many pity those who hold views they believe are nothing more than illusions and wishful thinking.

You pity the nihilist, the nihilist has pity for you.

My point is (with my atheist/relativist hat on) is that you having or not having pity for someone else is based entirely upon your opinion of reality which may be entirely different than someone else's.

Some people like inflicting harm on others and making people suffer. Some people like raising their children by making them toil under hard labor and minimal to no education. Each culture does what it does based on what they value and if I am to speak as a consistent atheist and a consistent relativist I have to affirm that at the end of the day, their way of living is objectively and ultimately no better or worse than the culture that values easing human suffering and pain and good education.

You are absolutely right!! This is why no one can live out their atheism (or be consistent with their worldview). The DO believe life has meaning and what you do while on earth matters! The big question is why???

If we're just molicules in motion and then we die then what difference does it make if you've done good or done lousy?? On the atheist worldview nothing!! I'd like to see one atheist be consistent with his worldview.

now they will tell me atheism isn't a worldview it's simply a belief that God doesn't exist. Nothing more. Nothin less (why they ALL put it like that is beyond me) then we'll have a this n that about why I'm wrong about everything I believe and I will tell them God still loves them and wants them to come to know Him. I pray that actually happens.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You are absolutely right!! This is why no one can live out their atheism (or be consistent with their worldview). The DO believe life has meaning and what you do while on earth matters! The big question is why???

If we're just molicules in motion and then we die then what difference does it make if you've done good or done lousy?? On the atheist worldview nothing!! I'd like to see one atheist be consistent with his worldview.

now they will tell me atheism isn't a worldview it's simply a belief that God doesn't exist. Nothing more. Nothin less (why they ALL put it like that is beyond me) then we'll have a this n that about why I'm wrong about everything I believe and I will tell them God still loves them and wants them to come to know Him. I pray that actually happens.

That is just as ridiculous as someone saying: "If there is an afterlife with God, then why don't theists kill themselves so that they can be with God forever? I'd like to see one theist be consistent with his worldview."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Geez, I even underlined it and you still missed it . True meaning of omnipotent is the ability to do whatever one sets out to do. This is the biblical understanding of omnipotent.

Right, whatever one sets out to do within the limits of one's nature. Which makes you omnipotent.

 

[KCfromNC]

depends on who you ask.

If you ask the darwinian evolutionist person who believes that the consumption of doses of battery acid as a part of a balanced diet will eventually lead to the genetic alteration of the human dna structure to give them superhuman strength and survival advantages more pronounced than the consumption of chicken would , then they would say battery acid is better for humanity.

If you ask someone who thinks consumption of battery acid would eventually lead to illness while chicken would not, they would probably see chicken as being the better choice.

So basically no one but a fictional invention of your own mind has any problem answering this leading question the way you'd hope they would. What was your issue again?

 

[KCfromNC]

now they will tell me atheism isn't a worldview it's simply a belief that God doesn't exist.

No they won't. They'll tell you that atheism is simply the lack of belief in god. If you can't even get this simple definition straight, why should we accept your assertions about what Real Atheists(tm) must believe?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You are absolutely right!! This is why no one can live out their atheism (or be consistent with their worldview). The DO believe life has meaning and what you do while on earth matters! The big question is why???

That's one of life's mysteries. Figuring out what to do and why, is a uniquely human endeavour that makes life worth living. If your religion gives you purpose, more power to you. My purpose is education, research, and helping my fellow man.

If we're just molicules in motion and then we die then what difference does it make if you've done good or done lousy?? On the atheist worldview nothing!! I'd like to see one atheist be consistent with his worldview.

Well, in what way are we inconsistent in our worldview? What is it you'd like us to do? Rape? Murder?

now they will tell me atheism isn't a worldview it's simply a belief that God doesn't exist. Nothing more. Nothin less (why they ALL put it like that is beyond me)

First, that's not what atheism is. Atheism, as the name suggests, is any stance that is not the theistic "God exists" stance, and can be broken down into strong ("God doesn't exist") and weak (no comment either way) atheism:

1. The theist says "God exists"
2. The strong atheist says "God does not exist"
3. The weak atheist says neither

Strong atheists are extremely rare indeed - there are more Christians who deny Christ's divinity than there are strong atheists. So for all intents and purposes, atheists as a whole do not say "God does not exist".


Second, we have to continually reiterate this point because people like yourself so often get it wrong. So often we encounter fallacious arguments that are based on the false premise that atheists actively affirm God doesn't exist.

then we'll have a this n that about why I'm wrong about everything I believe

That would be a ludicrous thing to do - clearly no one is going to dispute with your belief that the sky is blue, or your belief that there exists a country called 'France'.

and I will tell them God still loves them and wants them to come to know Him. I pray that actually happens.

Then why sit there and insult us? Hatred is not going to engender a conversion - love is.

 

[JGG]

You are absolutely right!! This is why no one can live out their atheism (or be consistent with their worldview). The DO believe life has meaning and what you do while on earth matters! The big question is why???

If we're just molicules in motion and then we die then what difference does it make if you've done good or done lousy?? On the atheist worldview nothing!! I'd like to see one atheist be consistent with his worldview.

now they will tell me atheism isn't a worldview it's simply a belief that God doesn't exist. Nothing more. Nothin less (why they ALL put it like that is beyond me) then we'll have a this n that about why I'm wrong about everything I believe and I will tell them God still loves them and wants them to come to know Him. I pray that actually happens.

Could you lay out for us what precisely the atheist worldview is?

 

[discipulus]

The whole conversation is ultimately pointless and meaningless...

Who cares what atheism is...who cares what theism is...

If you care to make the distinction then fine. Some could care less...

We are homo sapiens who have evolved via a blind natural procession of events which just so hapoened to make us like we are. Each of us lives to determine what is meaningful and we are our own masters of our lives. We have the desires nature has given us and ultimately when we die we cease to exist.

Some choose to live in a way that they think will help the huma. Race sirvive. Some choose to live according to their hedknistic sexual desires.

Some like to drink water and excercise a lot. Some like to drink alcohol and smoke ....

Some like being marfied and bei g faitjful. Some like going to strip clubs and sexing it up with prostitutes.

Some like chicken some like beef...

So what?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The whole conversation is ultimately pointless and meaningless...

Then kindly go away.

Who cares what atheism is...who cares what theism is...

Those who are discriminated against, or even killed, because others don't understand the distinction.

We are homo sapiens who have evolved via a blind natural procession of events which just so hapoened to make us like we are.

Correct.

Each of us lives to determine what is meaningful and we are our own masters of our lives. We have the desires nature has given us and ultimately when we die we cease to exist.

Some choose to live in a way that they think will help the huma. Race sirvive. Some choose to live according to their hedknistic sexual desires.

Some like to drink water and excercise a lot. Some like to drink alcohol and smoke ....

Some like being marfied and bei g faitjful. Some like going to strip clubs and sexing it up with prostitutes.

Some like chicken some like beef...

So what?

So let's continue having interesting conversations, enjoying life and bettering our fellow man.

I'm sorry you seem to be having an existential episode on losing your faith (and, judging by your spelling, on deciding to drown your sorrows), but could you whine somewhere else, please?

 

[discipulus]

Those who are discriminated against, or even killed, because others don't understand the distinction.

Those who are dead care for nothing actually.

But I get your drift.

And people like I said have a right to care. Those who don't care about others have that right not to care as well. Speaking as a relativist of course...

So let's continue having interesting conversations, enjoying life and bettering our fellow man.

Excellent! Many may agree that your opinion is a good one.

Many may say bah to conversing and bah to bettering peoples lives....and maintain that living a selfish self centered life is good.


Both are simply preferences.

I'm sorry you seem to be having an existential episode on losing your faith (and, judging by your spelling, on deciding to drown your sorrows), but could you whine somewhere else, please?

I'm using my phone and I am not whining....although if I was, then that might just be simply how I like to communicate. You may think me a terrible bore but that would be your opinion.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Those who are dead care for nothing actually.

But I get your drift.

And people like I said have a right to care. Those who don't care about others have that right not to care as well. Speaking as a relativist of course...

Of course. So long as you accept that there are reasons for why people would care.

Excellent! Many may agree that your opinion is a good one.

Many may say bah to conversing and bah to bettering peoples lives....and maintain that living a selfish self centered life is good.


Both are simply preferences.

Indeed. But it is not a simple opinion that those who refuse to engage in discussion and debate, become mired in intellectual stagnation..

 

[discipulus]

Of course. So long as you accept that there are reasons for why people would care.

With my relativist atheist hat on once again I:

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about others.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they could care less about others.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about having sexual relations only within the confines of a heterosexual marriage.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about having sexual relations with whoever they can regardless of whether or not they are married and regardless of the gender of their partner.

People have reasons they think are good reasons for holding the opinions they do. In fact these reasons can be looked at as opinions themselves.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they desire to speak out against the evil they think Christians are responsible for.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they desire to speak out against the evil they think atheists are responsible for.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think God exists.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think God dont exist.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think the whole topic is pointless.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think the whole topic is supremely important.

I accept that everybody has an opinion, but speaking as a relativist for the moment, I can agree or disagree with whoever I want for whatever reason I want and give my opinion. That is as far as I can go.

I cannot say that my opinion is closer to some objective ideal that exists "out there" that we are all obligated to follow. As an atheist relativist for the moment, I acknowledge that the universe is a closed system, there is no transcendent moral law giver. There is no "moral law" "out there somewhere" that exists that says we OUGHT to do such and such or that WE SHOULD view this opinion as better than this other opinion.

I acknowledge I am the master of my own destiny, the creator of meaning and purpose for my own life and if I am to be consistent, I have to see every other homo sapien the same way with the same privileges I reserve for myself.

So, speaking as one without God who determines their own meaning in life and allows others to do the same....

If a man likes lying about people and picking apart their beliefs, then I say let him have at it! I can personally disagree and say numerous things about the man, but his opinion, like my own, is just how we see things. He likes chocolate ice cream, I like vanilla.

I can even post a video of his apparent dishonesty and laugh at it with all my atheist relativist friends and mock him and make jokes about the man and point out the fact that he is a hypocrite or he is this or he is that. I can laugh at the fact that he likes chocolate ice cream to while we like vanilla. Its all the same. We just make fun of each other's preferences and marvel at how nature could have caused us all to be so different.

Indeed. But it is not a simple opinion that those who refuse to engage in discussion and debate, become mired in intellectual stagnation..

You may be of the opinion that intellectual stagnation is malevolent. Many disagree and like to lay around eating cheese puffs and watch the Jerry Springer show.

You have an opinion, they have one.

You like Cheetos, I like Pringles...

 

[JGG]

If a man likes lying about people and picking apart their beliefs, then I say let him have at it! I can personally disagree and say numerous things about the man, but his opinion, like my own, is just how we see things. He likes chocolate ice cream, I like vanilla.

I can even post a video of his apparent dishonesty and laugh at it with all my atheist relativist friends and mock him and make jokes about the man and point out the fact that he is a hypocrite or he is this or he is that. I can laugh at the fact that he likes chocolate ice cream to while we like vanilla. Its all the same. We just make fun of each other's preferences and marvel at how nature could have caused us all to be so different.

Are you referring to the video of William Lane Craig, or the videos about Richard Dawkins?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

With my relativist atheist hat on once again I:

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about others.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they could care less about others.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about having sexual relations only within the confines of a heterosexual marriage.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they care about having sexual relations with whoever they can regardless of whether or not they are married and regardless of the gender of their partner.

People have reasons they think are good reasons for holding the opinions they do. In fact these reasons can be looked at as opinions themselves.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they desire to speak out against the evil they think Christians are responsible for.

I accept that people may have a thousand or even a million reasons why they desire to speak out against the evil they think atheists are responsible for.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think God exists.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think God dont exist.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think the whole topic is pointless.

I accept that some may have a thousand reasons why they think the whole topic is supremely important.

Probably, but not all reasons are equal.

I accept that everybody has an opinion, but speaking as a relativist for the moment, I can agree or disagree with whoever I want for whatever reason I want and give my opinion. That is as far as I can go.

Perhaps, but you would not be logical in doing so. If you want a consistent and accurate worldview, you are constrained in what you can believe. As well, not all reasons are equal (see below).

That said, I'm surprised you say you can agree or disagree with whatever you want for whatever reason you want. I can't do that. I can't flick a switch in my brain and become a die-hard conservative for the day - my beliefs are rooted in reason, whether I like it or not.

I cannot say that my opinion is closer to some objective ideal that exists "out there" that we are all obligated to follow.

No, but you can say your opinion is closer to the truth, to reality 'as is'. You may not be obligated to adhere to the truth, but it exists nonetheless.

As an atheist relativist for the moment, I acknowledge that the universe is a closed system, there is no transcendent moral law giver. There is no "moral law" "out there somewhere" that exists that says we OUGHT to do such and such or that WE SHOULD view this opinion as better than this other opinion.

I agree, and would go one step further: this is true even if you believe in an ultra-orthodox Christian view of morality. Even if there is a God who dictated the morality in our hearts and in the Bible, even if there is a moral law-giver, I don't see why that means we should automatically follow him.

Just because God says it's right and just to stone gays, doesn't mean I will. I've yet to be convinced that "Because God says so" is a valid reason to do or believe anything.

I acknowledge I am the master of my own destiny, the creator of meaning and purpose for my own life and if I am to be consistent, I have to see every other homo sapien the same way with the same privileges I reserve for myself.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe you adhere to a philosophy of hedonistic entitlement: "I can only experience my own pleasure and pain, so to Hell with everyone else's". Maybe your pleasure comes from helping others.

So, speaking as one without God who determines their own meaning in life and allows others to do the same....

If a man likes lying about people and picking apart their beliefs, then I say let him have at it! I can personally disagree and say numerous things about the man, but his opinion, like my own, is just how we see things. He likes chocolate ice cream, I like vanilla.

I can even post a video of his apparent dishonesty and laugh at it with all my atheist relativist friends and mock him and make jokes about the man and point out the fact that he is a hypocrite or he is this or he is that. I can laugh at the fact that he likes chocolate ice cream to while we like vanilla. Its all the same. We just make fun of each other's preferences and marvel at how nature could have caused us all to be so different.

You could do that, but you'd be quickly ostrasised by more civilised society (be it the CF community or society at large), which may diminish your enjoyment of life (or maybe not). Alternatively, you could be rational and civil in your discourse, taking pleasure not in mockery but in education and debate.

It's interesting that, when you wear your Hat of Atheistic Relativism +1, you instantly talk about mocking and belittling the innocent and unassuming theist for their quiet beliefs. Why isn't it just as possible that you would be a civil and sociable person?

You may be of the opinion that intellectual stagnation is malevolent. Many disagree and like to lay around eating cheese puffs and watch the Jerry Springer show.

I don't think many would disagree with that sentiment; rather, I think many ignore it. Many would agree that intellectual stagnation is a bad thing, but do nothing to stop it.

You have an opinion, they have one.

But the crucial distinction is, not all opinions are equal. Logic allows us to distinguish between opinions that are good and bad, useful and useless, accurate and inaccurate, rational and irrational, logical and illogical.

 

[discipulus]

Probably, but not all reasons are equal.

To say that not all reasons are equal is to assume a standard by which to judge them.

But if everyone's desires are their standard, then all reasons are equally the reasons of individual desire.

It is all opinion and preference to the relativist.

The objectivist is not limited to saying it is all just opinion or preference. He appeals to a standard by which to judge desire that exists apart from the plethora of desires that originate from human beings. The relativist is not so privileged.

Perhaps, but you would not be logical in doing so.

The consistent relativist must confess that some people may care less about being logical. Many love doing illogical and irrational things. To each his own.

You like being logical, thats good.

You like cotton candy i like candy apples.

Its all preference.

If you want a consistent and accurate worldview, you are constrained in what you can believe. As well, not all reasons are equal (see below).

And many could care less about having a consistent and accurate worldview so long as their pleasures and desires are satisfied.

That said, I'm surprised you say you can agree or disagree with whatever you want for whatever reason you want. I can't do that.

I cant eat broccoli either. Its disgusting. To you it may be delicious. Its all preference.

I can't flick a switch in my brain and become a die-hard conservative for the day - my beliefs are rooted in reason, whether I like it or not.

You do not have to agree with conservatives. But to be a consistent relativist, you must allow them the freedom to live as they choose. You can disagree, but it is no different than you disagreeing that cod-fish cakes are tasty.

No, but you can say your opinion is closer to the truth, to reality 'as is'. You may not be obligated to adhere to the truth, but it exists nonetheless.

once again, you may care about being closer to the truth with your views. Others could care less.

I agree, and would go one step further: this is true even if you believe in an ultra-orthodox Christian view of morality. Even if there is a God who dictated the morality in our hearts and in the Bible, even if there is a moral law-giver, I don't see why that means we should automatically follow him.

You dont see why but others do.

Its all how you see things and from where you stand according to the relativist.

Just because God says it's right and just to stone gays, doesn't mean I will.

Good for you. Some disagree and will stone them. That is their preference.

I've yet to be convinced that "Because God says so" is a valid reason to do or believe anything.

Great! Many are convinced....from where they stand God says so is valid.

You could do that, but you'd be quickly ostrasised by more civilised society (be it the CF community or society at large), which may diminish your enjoyment of life (or maybe not). Alternatively, you could be rational and civil in your discourse, taking pleasure not in mockery but in education and debate.

America and Europe are becoming increasingly hedonistic so no I disagree with your conclusion there.

And anyway its all preference anyway. Depends on how you see it.

It's interesting that, when you wear your Hat of Atheistic Relativism +1, you instantly talk about mocking and belittling the innocent and unassuming theist for their quiet beliefs. Why isn't it just as possible that you would be a civil and sociable person?

Many people enjoy and find meaning in being civil and sociable. Many find meaning and pleasure in being evil and anti social. Its whatever floats your boat for the relativist.

But the crucial distinction is, not all opinions are equal.

To you they are not all equal. To others they may all be equal.

Logic allows us to distinguish between opinions that are good and bad, useful and useless, accurate and inaccurate, rational and irrational, logical and illogical.

I agree. But some may not care to make the distinction. If they choose to live an illogical irrational inaccurate life then more power to them. In the end they are no better or worse off than you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

To say that not all reasons are equal is to assume a standard by which to judge them.

But if everyone's desires are their standard, then all reasons are equally the reasons of individual desire.

It is all opinion and preference to the relativist.

Maybe to the hard-core relativist, but since no one on here is a relativist, especially in the sense in which you use the word, then your point is largely moot.

 

[discipulus]

Maybe to the hard-core relativist, but since no one on here is a relativist, especially in the sense in which you use the word, then your point is largely moot.

You are not a relativist?

If not then what are you?

 

[Naoacreditomais]

God cannot lie.

I think the question you should be asking is "can a person think that they are talking with God but actually be deceived?"

The answer is yes.

Yes, God lies by proxy; He sends prophets or lying spirits to deceive.
1 KINGS 22 23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. 2Chronicles 18 22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. Jeremiah 4 10 and 20 7 Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.Ezekiel 14 9 And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

 

[discipulus]

Yes, God lies by proxy; He sends prophets or lying spirits to deceive.
1 KINGS 22 23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. 2Chronicles 18 22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets. Jeremiah 4 10 and 20 7 Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.Ezekiel 14 9 And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

is lying bad?