How Could God allow this?

[ZNP]

So God sends cancer, MND, Corona Virus, and makes some people wicked so that they will stab, shoot, rape and kill others?
Does that sound like a perfect, heavenly Father to you, Matthew 5:48, Luke 11:11-13? Or a God who IS love, 1 John 4:8, and light, 1 John 1:5? Or a God who is the sender of every perfect gift, James 1:17?

This questions presupposes that our puny lifetime is everything instead of nothing. We are eternal. Does living an extra 10 years mean that much in the grand scheme of things? What matters most is that we come to God, in prayer, receive Him, humble ourselves before Him. All of these things help some people to do that. So yes, they are perfect gifts. Paul said he does not regard the temporary sufferings to this life to be comparable to the eternal glory of the next age.

If God is like that, why pray for healing? God has sent the illness and will do as he pleases.
Why vaccinate children, or try to seek a vaccination for this virus? Do you wish to protect people against the things that God sends?
Why bother to feed the hungry, help the poor, stand up for injustice etc etc, if all these are from God, created by him and sent for a purpose?
Why did Jesus heal and release a woman whom Satan had kept bound, Luke 13:16? Why didn't he say, "these things are God's will; deal with them"? Or even "I have come to show you what God is like - have some more illness and pain"?

God healed to show forth His glory. He said that this person's blindness was not due to sin, but so that God's glory could be manifested. We also heal because we are children of God, imitators of God.

 

[ZNP]

This questions presupposes that our puny lifetime is everything instead of nothing. We are eternal. Does living an extra 10 years mean that much in the grand scheme of things? What matters most is that we come to God, in prayer, receive Him, humble ourselves before Him. All of these things help some people to do that. So yes, they are perfect gifts. Paul said he does not regard the temporary sufferings to this life to be comparable to the eternal glory of the next age.


God healed to show forth His glory. He said that this person's blindness was not due to sin, but so that God's glory could be manifested. We also heal because we are children of God, imitators of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Whose sin? Adam's correct?

He started it and men continued.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God rejected all of us because we receive Adam's sin, that is already a punishment.

Where does it say God rejected all of us at all?

If you don't want to accept that, you won't be able to accept that God now accepts us because we receive Jesus's obedience.

I don’t accept it and I still am able to accept that God loves the world. Where does it say we receive Jesus obedience though?

 

[Strong in Him]

This questions presupposes that our puny lifetime is everything instead of nothing.

It's not nothing. We have been created, saved, called to serve God and equipped with gifts to do so. Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 2:10, Ephesians 4:11, 1 Corinthians 12:28.

We are eternal.

But created, and put on this earth for a season and a reason.

Does living an extra 10 years mean that much in the grand scheme of things?

If you had cancer and 10 years meant the difference between seeing your children grow up, or not, would you still ask that question? There are some people who would give anything to have one more day with their parent/sibling/children/spouse/fiance(e) - never mind 10 years.
Don't you want as much time on earth as possible so as to witness to the Lord and reach as many for him as possible?

What matters most is that we come to God, in prayer, receive Him, humble ourselves before Him.

Forgive me, but who's going to come before God if they read that he sends viruses, sickness and evil on them? Unless you're saying that God uses them to beat people into submission?

All of these things help some people to do that.

SOME. Others have the opposite problem and turn away. They have enough suffering in their life, why would they come to a God who can inflict more, and will do if they don't do as they are told?

So yes, they are perfect gifts.

No, they are things that the devil intended for evil - to kill and destroy. GOD uses them for good; it doesn't mean he planned, created and sent them.

God healed to show forth His glory. He said that this person's blindness was not due to sin, but so that God's glory could be manifested.

If you're saying that God creates sickness and evil and can use them to bring people to him, in prayer and humility, then it was not right of him to heal it. If the illness was created and sent by God for a purpose, it needs to remain with the person until it has fulfilled that purpose.

Why would God be glorified by removing an illness that he had created and sent?
That would be like me planning for someone to fall into a hole so that I could show my goodness and bravery by rescuing them, and get lots of praise.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The first Adam was our federal head, just as the last Adam was too.

Doesn’t say that, either one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Obviously you don't think God is responsible for the choices man makes. This is the free will argument, God didn't create evil, He created free will.
Many Christians use this argument as the previous posts and this one show. But it is really the same thing as saying that after creating the universe God was no longer responsible for what happened. If you look at the verses in Post #208 that is not God's position. He is quite involved and quite responsible.

That is why I think the explanation in posts #6, 14 and 20 are a much better and more Biblical explanation.

Otherwise you have to explain away the verses in #208 the way one poster did --

That was one city
That was in the past
That was Egypt, not the world
etc, etc, etc

Where does God say he’s responsible for what you choose to do?

 

[ZNP]

Where does God say he’s responsible for what you choose to do?

Great question, goes to the very heart of the debate over whether or not God is responsible for our behavior.

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

God takes responsibility for making them and is grieved that His creation is sinful and fleshly.


25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.

26 I prayed therefore unto the Lord, and said, O Lord God, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

27 Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:

28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.

29 Yet they are thy people and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest out by thy mighty power and by thy stretched out arm.

Moses argument is very persuasive to God. If you destroy this people the unbelievers will say that you were not able (in other words you weren't omnipotent and you weren't omniscient). They will also say you are not a loving God but hated.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Great question, goes to the very heart of the debate over whether or not God is responsible for our behavior.

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

God takes responsibility for making them and is grieved that His creation is sinful and fleshly.

No, He doesn’t mention any responsibility there. Noah actually was a righteous man and God didn’t take responsibility for him either.

Deciding to end suffering doesn’t mean you are responsible for it. If I build a fine hospital with state if the art equipment and staff it with highly trained men and women, and they decide to perform horrible experiments, Ill feel grief that they do that, sorrow that I built it, perhaps, but not guilt. God felt sorrow but no guilt. He was not responsible. I might tear the building down to stop the horrors but I won’t feel guilt as I’m not responsible. Do you see the difference?

25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.

26 I prayed therefore unto the Lord, and said, O Lord God, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

27 Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:

28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.

29 Yet they are thy people and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest out by thy mighty power and by thy stretched out arm.

Moses argument is very persuasive to God. If you destroy this people the unbelievers will say that you were not able (in other words you weren't omnipotent and you weren't omniscient). They will also say you are not a loving God but hated.

Yes, Abraham also debates God on a similar issue. Still God doesn’t feel guilt nor responsible for what men think or do. Why would He?

 

[ZNP]

No, He doesn’t mention any responsibility there. Noah actually was a righteous man and God didn’t take responsibility for him either.

Deciding to end suffering doesn’t mean you are responsible for it. If I build a fine hospital with state if the art equipment and staff it with highly trained men and women, and they decide to perform horrible experiments, Ill feel grief that they do that, sorrow that I built it, perhaps, but not guilt. God felt sorrow but no guilt. He was not responsible. I might tear the building down to stop the horrors but I won’t feel guilt as I’m not responsible. Do you see the difference?
Yes, Abraham also debates God on a similar issue. Still God doesn’t feel guilt nor responsible for what men think or do. Why would He?

Didn't say God felt guilty. I said that Moses argument was if you wipe them all out then all the nations will say you weren't able to bring them out into the land that you promised. He was arguing based on God being omnipotent and omniscient. This shows that God is not hands off, He didn't simply create the universe and let it work itself out. He is actively involved in what is happening, including the plagues in Egypt, the flood at the time of Noah and Corona virus. All of this is to accomplish His purpose. If you argue that God is loving and would never cause a plague that kills people then how do you explain Noah's flood or His threat here to wipe out all of the children of Israel and start again. We know that God is not a liar. So explaining that is what my posts 6, 14, and 20 do. However I am open to hear someone else's explanation.

 

[mindlight]

Not at all.
Children and teenagers have been infected, and some have died.

Statistically irrelevant. The main casualties are older people with underlying conditions.

No.
Jesus died for sinners. I don't believe God has said, or ever would say, "some of you have let yourselves go and ruined your health; I am sending an illness that will finish you off."

I am assuming Gods Sovereignty and then describing what He is allowing. The people who are dying are the ones who have literally let themselves go, they are fatter, less fit and generally older. The only one where no blame can be attached is the age of a person.

Are you saying that people who are overweight or physically ill are therefore bound to be spiritually unhealthy?
Evidence?

In my experience there is a connection between people who have given up spiritually or who have no real discipline and people with physical problems. But stewardship of ones body is only one area of responsibility for a Christian. Some Christians have a discipline about bible study and prayer and none regarding their own bodies.

 

[ZNP]

I think you are taking the omnipotent and omniscient definitions to mean somehow God has complete control of man or men when He does not. He can look into our lives and know we will eventually soften our hearts to eventually turn to Him---- for example.

Tell that to Moses.
28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Moses argued that if God wiped out His people in the wilderness the nations would say it was because He couldn't bring them into the good land. Moses is arguing that the failure of the people of Israel would reflect on God not being omnipotent and omniscient. God does not dispute that.

 

[ZNP]

The virus is not evil. It is merely a product of nature.

Noah's flood -- simply product of nature or expression of God's judgement?

Plagues in Egypt -- simply product of nature or expression of God's judgement?

Miriam getting Leprosy -- simply product of nature or expression of God's judgement?

Sickness that struck those that took the ark of covenant in Samuel -- simply product of nature or expression of God's judgement

Plague that hit Israel due to David doing a census -- simply product of nature or God's judgement.

On the flip side, how about all the times Jesus healed someone in the gospels -- simply a product of nature or God's doing?

 

[ZNP]

Satan is in charge of this world until Christ returns.

Yes, but like the book of Job describes, Satan still reports to God and must get approval for anything He is to do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Didn't say God felt guilty. I said that Moses argument was if you wipe them all out then all the nations will say you weren't able to bring them out into the land that you promised. He was arguing based on God being omnipotent and omniscient. This shows that God is not hands off, He didn't simply create the universe and let it work itself out.

Only Deists think God created the world and is then hands off so you can drop that one. Christians don’t think that for a minute.

He is actively involved in what is happening, including the plagues in Egypt, the flood at the time of Noah and Corona virus.

To say he’s involved does not mean he’s creating viruses. How about He’s involved but doesn’t do everything.

All of this is to accomplish His purpose. If you argue that God is loving and would never cause a plague that kills people then how do you explain Noah's flood or His threat here to wipe out all of the children of Israel and start again.

I don’t argue that so what else do you have?

We know that God is not a liar. So explaining that is what my posts 6, 14, and 20 do. However I am open to hear someone else's explanation.

God is not controlling what men do but does set limits on how bad they can go. He interacts with humans for reasons that are very predictable but not widely known. He supports some and opposes some but always for reasons he’s made known.

He doesn’t control what men sell at open markets. He doesn’t keep
disease carrying rats out of crowded cities. He doesn’t stop air polluting factories. I can go on and on. It’s not cause He is powerless or disinterested or too busy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, but like the book of Job describes, Satan still reports to God and must get approval for anything He is to do.

Only to Job. God had a hedge around him so permission had to be acquired. From looking in the Bible and around at life, that’s not common.

 

[Jamesone5]

Tell that to Moses.
28 Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Moses argued that if God wiped out His people in the wilderness the nations would say it was because He couldn't bring them into the good land. Moses is arguing that the failure of the people of Israel would reflect on God not being omnipotent and omniscient. God does not dispute that.

Why was God not able to bring the Israelites to the Promised Land?

Because their hearts had turned away from Him.
An omniscent God would know how it would turn out--wouldn't He?

And for us who read the account much later, should we not heed the message here?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, but like the book of Job describes, Satan still reports to God and must get approval for anything He is to do.

We have no record of Satan asking permission to:

-incite David to sin
-tempt Eve
-take 1/3 of the angels
-try to take the throne of God
-prowl around like a roaring lion
asking whom he can devour
-tempt Jesus
-enter Judas
-appear as a angel of light

No record of Satan asking permission for this activity.

 

[ZNP]

We have no record of Satan asking permission to:

-incite David to sin
-tempt Eve
-take 1/3 of the angels
-try to take the throne of God
-prowl around like a roaring lion
asking whom he can devour
-tempt Jesus
-enter Judas
-appear as a angel of light

No record of Satan asking permission for this activity.

But we do have a record of Satan offering to give Jesus all the glory of the world if Jesus would bow down to him and Jesus does not dispute this. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to say that Satan had authority over the world. Yet when Satan tempts Jesus He refutes him with the word of God and Satan also uses the word of God to tempt Jesus. This shows that they both recognized God's word as a higher authority.

 

[Halbhh]

Love cannot exist unless there is real freedom (freedom to react, thus to love).

If there is real freedom, then there can be evil actions (because there is freedom to act without constraint).

Therefore for love to be possible, then also evil must be allowed. (that is, freedom must be allowed)

Therefore, from the beginning, we would need guidance, a way to learn, a chance to repent, and even ultimately a rescuer to rescue us from ourselves and from how our wrongs accumulate and make us lost. We would need Someone Who is Truth to teach and bring us back to God.